Cocked & UNlocked carry; Safety only for pre-holster use?

[Futo Inu]

After carrying a Glock for some time, I've become used to, and like the pull and shoot idea - no safeties to worry about under stress. Oh but you cant do that with the 1911 and other SAs, right, because when it's cocked the safety must be on, else it's unsafe. I say BS to this, because the only real safety preventing an ND while carrying a DAO like a Glock is the holster that covers the trigger guard, which is a perfectly fine "safety" once the gun is holstered, assuming it's a quality weapon which can prevent a jolt to cause the hammer to fall/striker to release.

Soooo, what's wrong with using the manual safety on a 1911 etc., only as an intermediary, after chambering a round, until after holstered. Once holstered in a good quality, secure holster, then disengage the manual, and voila, Glock-style, pull and shoot carry, perfectly safe, seems to me. Then, reverse the process when unholstering/unloading. Re-engage manual safety before drawing, only to disengage after removing mag and ready to clear by racking. Yeah, I know, it's a short, 4-lb pull - very dangerous - but that's only after drawing, and since for civis, you can't brandish at all unless shooting is justified anyway, and if you just keep you damn finger out of the trigger guard as you should anyway, then you won't ND on some1 after drawing, in the unlikely event you draw before being imminently threatened. So, bottom line, what's wrong the the function of the 1911 manual safety being used ONLY a temporary, unholstered safety? The only think I can think of which might be a problem is: Does an SA with the manual safety disenaged have a backup internal mechanism that prevents the hammer from falling in the event of a hard jolt? This could be a danger. Whaddya think?

 

[sm]

Me personally

I carry cond 1, C&L
I grew up with this, have always. In fact I'm opposite of you. If I shoot my P-11 or a revolver I "sweep" the non-existent safety. I've just done this for so long. Practice becomes habit-habit becomes faith-as it's said.

I basically stay with the same manual of arms-for me its SA, or DAO (including Revos). I personally do this on purpose, I don't want to think about it-especially under stress. I don't own any DA/SA, do not want them. I have nothing against them, have shot others(DA/SA) while at the range or teaching--but for my personal CCW , No. My 1911 is stock, no ambi's, no grip safeties pinned, it is a70's style--I want mine as designed by JMB. That said I've shot the swartz and series 80's--I have no problem, manual of arms are the same--just like the basic no frills for CCW.

Others can better give tech advise than I.

 

[Jimmy Mac]

The safety on a 1911 blocks the sear and the forward movement of the hammer.

You would have to be an nut carry a 1911 with the safety off.

 

[KSFreeman]

FI, I know what you do, you know what I do. Do you really want it to be known that you carry a weapon without a "safety" activated?

Rule #3, the Golden Rule, may trump all, but why have only one layer of defense. "Finger straight, safety on."

 

[juliet charley]

The safety on a 1911 blocks the sear and the forward movement of the hammer.

The Series 80 1911 have a firing pin disconnect--the firing pin cannot strike the primer unless the trigger is pulled all the way to the rear. Technically, it's just as safe as the Glock.

 

[IRock]

What ever you think. Not me. All the way to the rear is very little for a 1911.

 

[archer215]

when i carry a 1911 or my feg i carry condition 1 but i think the grip safety was originally desighed so the safety didnt have to be on for troops riding on horseback when the gun was desighned by john browning for the army

 

[Dave T]

Technically, it's just as safe as the Glock.

Actually this is not true. In addition to the firing pin block, the Glock has a
"Drop Safety" which prevents the trigger bar from releasing the firing pin. This performs much the same function as the 1911s thumb safety which blocks the sear from releasing the hammer.

The trigger on a Glock moves over a distance of something like a half inch, the trigger on your 1911's "4 lb pull" only moves 1/8". The chances of an AD go up dramatically with the much shorter trigger movement.

If you can't train yourself to consistantly, without fail, disengage the thumb safety of your 1911, you probably shouldn't be carrying it.

 

[RogerC]

Carry it that way stuffed down the front of your pants.

 

[Jimmy Mac]

JC

I would assume that there are many more 1911s out there without the firing pin lock than with it. A 1911 without the firing pin lock requires the manaul safety to make it drop safe. The intersept notch is not enough.

The poster did not say his had it.

 

[juliet charley]

I know--that's why I specified Series 80 (and I am by no means advocating carrying a 1911 cocked and unlocked--frankly, I believe it would be better if Glocks were sent Cominolli before they're carried).

BUT, if we are talking "operator," a cocked and unlocked Series 80 1911 (just keep your finger off the trigger) is just as safe as a Glock (just keep your finger off the trigger).

The trigger stroke is a separate issue altogether--most Series 80 have a slightly longer trigger pull (after all, you have to actuate the firing pin disconnect) than the 1/8 inch mentioned and break at considerably more than the 4 pounds mentioned. To be honest, you're probably talking just about the same weight as a standard Glock trigger and only a slightly longer pull--just remember there is almost NO resistance for the first 90% of that Glock 1/2 inch trigger pull. The best (or worse) you can say is that the Glock as a slightly "mushier" trigger pull.

Dave T - The firing pin disconnect in the Series 80 prevents the the firing pin from striking the primer unless the trigger is pulled all the way to the where--it performs the same function as the "drop safety" you describe. The Glock is no more "drop safe" than a Series 80 1911.

 

[Jimmy Mac]

I agree with JC to some extent. As far as operator ND the series 80 1911 cocked and unlocked may be as safe as the Glock but I still say the Glock trigger is not as eaisily accidently pulled as the SA 1911 trigger.

Even if the break is the same weight the pull on the Glock is longer and less crisp.

Also there is really no reason a normal civilian going about his regular busisness should carry a cocked and unlocked 1911.

I did read that an elite European anti terrorist team makes entrys with a cocked and unlocked BHP as back up to their MP-5.

The act of wiping off the safety is easy to master and becomes as automatic as pulling the trigger with a little practice.

 

[Ankeny]

Nah, never mind, won't say it...

 

[boing]

Common C&L concern we hear is "what if you forget to disengage the safety under stress?", which leads to this thread.

But, what if you train "point & shoot" with an unlocked 1911, and you forget to take the safety off after holstering? Then you're drawing a locked 1911 without having practiced the safety swipe at all.

That's no less of a training problem than ingraining the 'swipe down' response (which has become a very natural and integral part of my draw stroke, and didn't take long to make it so, either).

PS- Agreed that the Glock trigger is more resistant to ND than a typical 1911 trigger. But then a Sig trigger is even more resistant, and you can index your thumb over the hammer when reholstering, which isn't possible with a Glock.

Different tools for different fools.

 

[Futo Inu]

Hmmm

Interesting - thanks juliet charley and other (helpful) posters. I guess it all depends on whether my Kimber and Springfield (and the Wilson I plan to get) have the series 80 style firing pin disconnect safety - I just don't know - does anyone know. Also, obviously there is the grip safety, but as I understand it, this is not an adequate "drop/jar" safety. KSF, yes I see your point but it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, as they say...

 

[Drjones]

Futo: FWIW, I agree with you.

The way I see it, EVERY gun has MULTIPLE safeties. (assuming they are all functioning properly)

1) Your head. Use it. Safety #1

2) Holster that covers trigger guard

3) Finger. KEEP IT OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU WANT TO SHOOT THE D@MN GUN. End of story.

In addition to these, the 1911 has the grip safety, which, unless depressed, (maybe it needs prozac! ) will not allow the gun to fire.

That said, I guess if you really wanted to, you could. I don't really see why not...Not sure if I would, but I don't have a 1911 yet to practice with...

 

[M1911Owner]

Well, let's put it this way. It you carry it UNlocked, and if, for whatever reason, there should be an accidental/negligent discharge that that wounds another person, then, once the lawyers get done with you, everything you have ever owned and ever will own will belong to that person or his heirs.

Does that sound like a good plan to you?

 

[Jimmy Mac]

Futo

Are you saying you already own two 1911s but you do not know if they have the firing pin lock or not?

You really need to learn a little more about the guns you intend to carry before someone gets hurt.

 

[Handy]

What happens, during a hasty draw, if you're index finger pops off the trigger guard and into it? You've already compressed the grip safety and the trigger doesn't need to move much to fire.

That doesn't sound that farfetched, does it?

 

[Futo Inu]

My word, where to start:

Handy, that is what the safety between my ears is for, and the training of keeping said finger OUT of the guard.

Jimmy Mac - I don't think I need to know that specific tidbit of information, in order to be safe - and why do you think I'm posting here? Until I do learn, I know enough to know how to be safe, using the manual safety, the one between my ears, etc. And thanks a lot for YOUR help with info - oops, wait, you didn't help - nevermind. I would email you with more specific information on where to go, but since you have none, let's just say, if you don't have someful helpful to say, please refrain from exhibiting your rectal/cranial inversion. Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. What part of L-E-A-R-N-I-N-G don't you understand, your almighty highness?

M1911 Owner - the answer is yes, that sounds like a fine plan - cuz I aint got nothin. If they want to sue me they can get in line - it's entertaining to watch. As long as I'm alive and kicking, it's well worth it - and pull and shoot / standardized manual of arms could just keep me alive.

DrJones, could you please explain exactly how the grip safety operates - how complete of a guard against a "drop/jar" is it, or lack thereof? What about the firing pin disconnect until the trigger is all the way to the rear?