Clements gun?

[j-framer]

Continued from previous post:

Model 1907

With the introduction of the Clement model 1907 6.35mm/.25ACP pistol, the numbering series appears to have begun once more at number 1.

The following early 1907s have breechblocks with rounded, or convex, sides (on which the grasping grooves are cut). Legend is "-AUTOMATIC PISTOL CLEMENT'S PATENT-". Safety markings are in French ("Feu" and "Sur"). Magazine catch is located on backstrap in the manner of the 1903 model.

No. 810
No. 1134
No. 1144
No. 1616
No. 1935

Somewhere after No. 1935, the sides of the breechblock became straight.

No. 2047
No. 3910

Somewhere after No. 3910, the magazine catch was relocated to the lower rear corner of the left grip.

No. 5739
No. 6297

End of data for the Model 1907. To be continued with the Model 1908.

 

[j-framer]

Continued from previous post:

Model 1908

The Clement model 1908 appears to continue the same numbering series as the 1907. Legend remains "-AUTOMATIC PISTOL CLEMENT'S PATENT-".

It is noteworthy that the earliest production 1908 pistols still had safety markings in French ("FEU" and "SUR"). Following is the lowest serial numbered model 1908 I have recorded, and the only one observed with French safety markings:

No. 7189

Soon after production began on this model, the safety markings changed to English ("FIRE" and "SAFE"):

No. 8841 (marked "BELGIUM" on the right side)
No. 8918 (marked "BELGIUM" on the right side)
No. 9020 (cannot confirm presence or absence of "BELGIUM" marking - no photo of pistol's right side)
No. 9148 (marked "BELGIUM" on the right side)

At this point in production, a transverse pin appears at the extreme point of the grip tang (where the web of one's hand would be when grasping the gun). Judging from the excellent pictures of a disassembled late 1908 (No. 10775) on Gerhard Schoenbauer's "Vest Pocket Pistol Collector" website (see link to site in post #7), it looks like this pin secures the upper end of a self-contained unit incorporating the mainspring and other components related to driving the hammer. This unit appears fitted into the backstrap of the pistol and looks quite similar to the one found in 1909 pistols, though lacking the quick release lever of that model. Whether earlier 1908 pistols had such a unit, though secured in the frame differently, or whether the design of the earlier varation differed more substantially, is not known to me.

No. 10775
No. 11154

End of data for Model 1908. To be continued with the Model 1909.

 

[j-framer]

Continued from previous post:

Model 1909

The Clement Model 1909 appears to continue the same numbering series as the Model 1908. Legend remains "-AUTOMATIC PISTOL CLEMENT'S PATENT-", and legend is located on the sighting rib along the top of the receiver.

It is interesting to note that the sides of the breechblock now have cross checkering rather than straight serrations. Safety markings are in English ("FIRE" and "SAFE").

No. 21117 (This pistol is fully engraved in a fanciful dragon and scroll motif and appears nickel-plated. Unsure if engraving is period work. Screws and levers are fire blued).

No. 21570 (marked "MADE IN BELGIUM" on right side)
No. 21905 (photo blurry but believed to be marked "MADE IN BELGIUM" on right side)
No. 22316 (marked "MADE IN BELGIUM" on right side)
No. 22434 (marked "MADE IN BELGIUM" on right side)
No. 22504
No. 26516 (marked "MADE IN BELGIUM" on right side)
No. 27004 (marked "MADE IN BELGIUM" on right side)
No. 27464
No. 28649

Sometime after No. 28649, the sides of the breechblock received straight serrations rather than checkering, and the "-AUTOMATIC PISTOL CLEMENT'S PATENT-" legend was discontinued, to be replaced with a simple "C.P.C" marking on the left side of the pistol near the muzzle.

No. 36956

It is possible that this late pistol was assembled from leftover parts before the transition to the much different Model 1912. Perhaps the straight-serrated breechblock was a leftover part from Model 1908 production (I don't know if breechblocks are interchangeable between the 1908 and 1909 models). What does seem certain is that this pistol is original with respect to its parts and finish, with matching serial numbers stamped in the usual locations on the same pieces as "normal" 1909 production (upper receiver, lower receiver, breechblock). Does not appear "messed with" at all, aside from someone's having installed a dovetailed front sight on it.

End of data for Model 1909. To be continued with the Model 1912.

 

[Khawk72]

Model 1174

I bought a Clements a while back. It's number is 1174. By J-framers description it is a model 1907. Where can I get more information? The truly only thing wrong with this is it is missing the safety.

 

[j-framer]

Khawk72, thanks for reporting your Clement. Have you visited the Austrian website mentioned in post #7? There are pictures and a short description of each model.

Is there any chance you could post a photo or two of your Clement?

 

[DakaPine]

Clement

I have a:
Automatic Pistol Clement Patent
Charles PH Clement
Liege
3934

Grips damaged (badly)
Looking for help to confirm caliber (e.g. 5mm or .25 cal)
and,
Looking for a clip.
Appreciate any help.

 

[James K]

Check www.gunpartscorp.com for the magazine. They list four, all in .25 caliber. (There wouldn't be much point in making 5mm magazines as the ammo is unobtainable.)

I have no source suggestion on the grips. You could probably make them or have them made but of course wouldn't look original (unless you can do a real good job of carving plastic).

You should be able to tell .25 from 5mm just by looking at the muzzle, or use a ruler. If the hole is about 1/4 inch (.25") it is .25 caliber. If it looks a lot smaller, it is 5mm (.18 caliber), or about 3/16th on your ruler.

Jim

 

[DakaPine]

Clement

Thanks for the reply....appears to measure 3/16 (5mm)
Found grips, but looks like not much need to rehab the gun without ammo/clip.
Appreciate the input.

 

[gyvel]

FWIW, Mathews has the following Clements listed and illustrated in his book:

Model 1903 s/n 10148
Model 1907 s/n 1975
Model 1907 s/n 6168
Model 1908 s/n 9157
Model 1909 s/n 16410
Model 1909 (4 5/8" barrel) s/n 36571
Model 1909 (4 5/8" barrel) s/n 37057
Model 1912 s/n 37078
Model 1912 s/n 36402

All of them were listed as "6.35mm" and none were listed as 5mm.

 

[gyvel]

Found grips, but looks like not much need to rehab the gun without ammo/clip.
Appreciate the input.

Clement grips: http://vintagegungrips.net/clpigr.html

 

[DakaPine]

Thanks

I've already purchased the grips and will continue to research the serial number. I would agree from everything I can find, the 6.35mm is about all that is out there...........I'm probably stuck with a clip-less, "ammunition-less" unique 5mm gun.

 

[GrozaB]

Some update on 1903 ser# 7600 It marked with Siamese "Chakra" on backstrap. Also on the top strap it marked "Manufacture Francaise d'Armes et Cycles de St.Etienne"

 

[James K]

FWIW, mine is #8103, 5mm. Neither the magazine nor the breech face will accept .25 ACP.

The gun is marked on the left side "Automatic Pistol Clement's Patent" and in a semi-circle above "Liege" the words "Charles P.H. Clement". There is a Chakra on the front (not the back) strap. There are no right side markings except the serial number on frame and bolt and the normal Liege proof marks.

The recoil spring is very strong and the pistol is quite hard to cock, even for a moderately strong man; it would be impossible for most women.

Jim

 

[GrozaB]

"Neither the magazine nor the breech face will accept .25 ACP"
It is VERY strange... Magazine should accept .25 just fine...

25ACP in Clement mag.

5mm in Clement mag.

 

[James K]

Hi, GrozaB,

Magazines might differ, but White & Munhall give the 5mm Clement rim diameter as .279" -.284", and the 6.35mm Browning (.25 ACP) rim diameter as .297" - .302". The .25 ACP will fit into my 5mm magazine, but can't be pushed all the way back.

Is it possible that the magazine shown is a .25 ACP magazine or that later magazines were made to work with either caliber?

Jim

 

[gyvel]

If anybody needs a Clement mag, let me know. (But it ain't gonna be cheap.)

 

[GrozaB]

Another one for the record. Ser# 8192 5mm. No Chakra anywhere.

 

[localone]

just picked up up

I purchased it from a local guy for $125
SN 8869 good condition grips are great
Belgium on right side of gun and automatic pistol clements patent on the left side

Anyone know if it was a good find? Thanks Dave

 

[IanK]

5mm or 6.35mm/.25ACP

A while ago I purchased s/n 9626 in 5mm. I can supply photos to show it is definately 5mm, I have several inert rounds and the heads just start to engage on the rifling from the muzzle end. It is missing the knob on the base of the mag and the trigger is reluctant to return to battery, but otherwise in good condition. I think this puts back the timeline for the introduction of the 1903 in .25ACP?

Ian

 

[macgabhain]

popping in

Just picked up 9997, which is in 6.35/.25.