City pays "protection" money -- homicides and firearms assaults go down

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Pond James Pond

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Is there any country without a capitalist system that has achieved 0% unemployment?

No, but then I was being specific about countries like the US and Eurozone that usually have more money for social initiatives.

Of course the rose-tinted members of my local community like to claim that the Soviet Union had 0% unemployment, but then there was also 0% unhappiness, 0% want, 0% physically or mentally disabled people either in those days...

Maybe we were wrong about it all along...
 

44 AMP

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I recall hearing how, in the Soviet Union, people who had issues with the govt (or someone in it) short of chargeable treason, were classified as "mentally ill" and were taken and sent for "treatment".

This kept them out of the Soviet criminal court system, and the limited rights that the accused had there.

Pretty slick legal fiction there, I think. You aren't a criminal, you're just sick, and we're here to help you......

I fear for the day when this attitude takes root and gets support in the US, but I feel if nothing radically changes, it is coming. And the "mentally ill" will be any and everyone who disagrees with the leftist agenda. (other than the rich, of course, who can buy their freedom in a coin the new masters will accept)
 

Pond James Pond

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Well, there were "re-education" centres, much like in China and N.K. now. As for the actually mentlly ill, or anyone with a mental disability such as trisomy 21 or the like were basically stuck in institutions and never seen again, by parents included. Same with the physically disabled.

The Soviet system did NOT have anyone who was mental ill or disabled.

When I think of how that was done to some people for the sake of keeping up appearances, I am happier about tolerating some free-loaders if those in genuine need get help.

Pretty sick system.

On the plus side, since virtually all coast-line was closed to the public (sign or a healthy system when you have to keep you citizens in), Estonia now has loads of untouched coastal ecosystems and nature reserves.... One even has a disused Soviet nuclear sub base in it that you can wander around.

So every cloud...:rolleyes:
 
I agree, when there is no work, there is no work. But outside of specific individual places and times, this is not the case in the US.
It is extremely difficult to get a living wage job in my area of the US without a personal contact. Sure someone can get a job at McDonald's, but guess what? Those jobs just leave you reliant on other public assistance programs.


I have a small exposure to a highly successful rehabilitative program that included a large number of non-violent adult felons shortly after they left prison. The idea that anyone is going to go to prison and the experience will turn their life around is ignorant. There are unbelievable challenges to convicted felons. Have you ever known a woman trying to re-enter the workforce after taking a decade to raise kids? Imagine having been out o the workforce for a decade and your explanation is you were in prison. Then consider that the decade away has resulted in breaking contact with almost every legitimate person you know.

For a juvenile offender it can be further complicated by having missed a significant period of school. Take a borderline student out of the classroom for even a few weeks and how much of a chance do they have to catch up? How many teachers are going to put in extra time to help a student who missed because of being put in juvenile detention?

There are certainly people who are able to pull themselves out of the cycle, but it is more difficult than any challenge most of us have faced.

Then there is the whole issue of erroneous convictions and the absolutely asinine list of felonies in the US.

Maybe a government sponsored program isn't the answer. Maybe it isn't a program suitable for all manor of offenses, such as violent offenses. Without some third party assistance the simple reality is a minor offense in high school sends many of the offenders on a lifelong downward path they aren't capable of exiting by them-self. A path with immeasurable social and economic cost for the taxpayer.
$9,000 sounds pretty cheap.

I think one of the major problems is all these government programs allow many citizens to think they are doing their part by paying their taxes and need not have any further personal involvement. Good luck in that world.
 
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745SW

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I think it's gotten to the point bad people need to be placed on their own island. Problem is this island would be about half the size of the US.
 

zippyfusenet

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Good Jobs

I could support this program if the stipend is temporary and the program is successful in getting these young men stably employed. People who work full time earn more money than they could steal by petty crime, and are too busy to get into trouble. Problem solved.

The problem I see is that too many young Americans despise minimum-wage no-benefits jobs. In my experience, the jobs generally pay what they're worth and there isn't much room to raise the wages. No, you can't live on 30 hours of minimum wage a week, not well at all. But the smart kids see that these entry-level jobs are the first step on a life long career. The go to work while their parents still support them, work hard, do what the boss says, don't talk back, and in a year or three work their way up to full time, to the day shift, to shift supervisor, to a job in a better industry. They're on their way.

The dumb kids think that a 'good job' is what they see on television: every one sits around the workplace cracking wise on each other, until the star gets in the final crack that caps everyone else down. Then the boss strolls through the set, tells everyone to 'go back to work', and they all pretend to shuffle some papers as the scene ends.

The dumb kids think they deserve a 'good job' like they see on TV, so they leave the entry level, minimum wage work for undocumented immigrants. In the ghettos, the dumb kids join gangs and commit crime. In the suburbs the dumb kids just live with their parents and play video games. Then the parents die and the dumb kids are unemployable in their thirties. They go homeless, or try to convince Social Security that they have some kind of mental health disability.

You can probably tell that I have little sympathy with the dumb kids. But it seems to me that we're losing a significant part of this generation to 'I'm too good for the jobs they offer me, I'd rather thug it up or just let my mother feed me' syndrome. We can replace these dumb kids in the workforce with immigrants, but the dumb kids are creating big social problems as they self-destruct over the course of twenty or thirty years.

So I will support a program that gets all the dumb kids on their feet and productive, by any means necessary. Gawd help us, they're our kids.
 

rebs

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They pass laws that turn law abiding citizens into criminals and then they pay the real criminals to not commit crime. What a government huh ?
 

Glenn E. Meyer

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My two cents - from my readings, it was the elimination of good manufacturing jobs that sunk many neighborhoods around the country. Yes, firms made money by moving such overseas and that's good for share holders. However, for the poor old kid wanting a secure future and isn't able to become a programmer or the like - they were out of look.

We are just dealing with the aftermath of the destruction of decent jobs for the average folk.
 

FITASC

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That costs money... Not just the moving, but accommodation once arrived and funds to tide one over until that job does turn up.

Funny how those who have come here illegally with nothing have managed to make that move, find a place to live (albeit usually overcrowded) and have made something for themselves.

Instead of paying them not to commit crimes, perhaps ALL "subsidies" should have a VERY temporary timeline (as welfare originally had) - you don't work, you don't eat comes to mind. And as for the $25K/year prisoner, they USED to be self-sufficient raising their own animals and crops; perhaps it is time to revisit some of those old methods.......
 

KyJim

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from my readings, it was the elimination of good manufacturing jobs that sunk many neighborhoods around the country.
I agree and it's not just"good" manufacturing jobs and not all the factories were in the cities either. Nearly the entire textile industry left this country even though they had workers in the U.S. working at near minimum wage jobs. And most of us are complicit because we would rather pay two dollars less for a shirt made overseas than if it were made in the U.S.
 

barnbwt

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"And most of us are complicit because we would rather pay two dollars less for a shirt made overseas than if it were made in the U.S."
FWIW, it was a whole lot more than two dollars. At least by now it is.

Case in point; I recently bought a lathe. New Chinese lathe of the size I got with some QC issues, 3000$. New Taiwanese lathe of comparable size, 6000$. Used Japanese lathe of comparable size, $10000. Heavily used US-made lathe of comparable size still in working condition, $12000. New production Japanese lathe of comparable size (CNC, since no manuals are still made), $25000. New production Haas TL-1 (a bit larger) $30000.

And we wonder why nothing gets made in developed countries any more. It is simply impossible for many consumers or customers to even entertain engaging an American supplier for business, and that's assuming one still persists in the market. Quality may best quantity, but accessibility beats both every time in the end. The only way a machine shop can even afford new, quality equipment anywhere is to make overpriced widgets for customers spending other peoples' money, it seems. I don't even know if it's possible to source steel that is guaranteed to be US produced to quality standards.

"Funny how those who have come here illegally with nothing have managed to make that move, find a place to live (albeit usually overcrowded) and have made something for themselves."
I once spoke with a former African refugee, who stated matter-of-fact-ly "the rebels were getting closer and I didn't want to joint them, so I just walked 500 miles to the next safe place" like it was the most common thing in the world. He was seeking a safer place of employment for his brick-making skills, as I recall. Like I said before, the luxury of stability we enjoy in America is rapidly becoming a ball and chain for many people, causing them to miss out on opportunities they won't even consider. Had this guy not left because the rebels offered free food in exchange for service, he'd never have hooked up with a mission group, risen in its ranks, and scored a plane trip into the States. FWIW, he's now doing work far more productive than brick-making, and getting paid for it.

Which dovetails back to the original point. If minimum wage burger-job afforded a set lifestyle in the '50's (the 'good ol days'), then a manual machine-shop gig should afford something greater than that, obviously. But once the machines are automated and the operator must also perform setups and inspection, requiring a broader skillset, should ne not be paid even more than before? And what of the jobs invented entirely since then, like the IT administrator responsible for not only ensuring multi-million dollar systems carrying billions of dollars of business remain in operation, but must also remain informed of the cutting edge developments of his field? Should he not be paid even more than the CNC machinist?

There's been an enormous inflation of wealth that a given job can generate due to technology in the past several decades, but the market/government/union/society we live in has not tolerated wage growth in accordance, since that would mean that the legacy ditch-digging jobs at the bottom rung which have not progressed as far as return on wages retain the same pay scale. And that's just not fair. People like to bemoan the growing 'inequality' as though it is not fully justified --in fact it is suppressed in all but the most influential cases-- and forget that we have individual human beings who are directly responsible for managing billions of dollars existing alongside street sweepers, burger flippers, and other jobs that haven't changed at all in a century, to say nothing of folks who aren't even doing that much. In light of these developments, it is nothing short of astounding to me that socialism is still as popular as it is; considering the accelerating disparity between 'producers' and 'consumers' it's amazing even socialists still buy into it.

You can give people at the bottom enough to keep them alive so they can find a better life, but you can't square the circle much farther than that. $25,000 a year for sitting on your butt and staying out of trouble. I only get paid 2.8 times that doing cutting edge aerospace engineering design work (alright, that might be a bit charitable, but it's what my company calls it :D). Tell me to my face my efforts are worth less than those of three vagrants, and I will be strongly inclined to take my efforts where they are more appreciated (at least with respect to vagrants, if not objectively :rolleyes:)

TCB

*As far as 'evul' corporations and their 'evul' profits; this destructive impulse was not nearly so present until the '80's when foreign agents (people, not KGB) began buying their way onto corporate boards. That's when all this 'globalist' tripe took off, and companies pretended they could operate globally while still keeping their American interests at heart. In truth, we simply decoupled these profit-seeking machines from their only grounding in reality, and now have monsters whose motives lie more in the ether than in anything fundamental.

A lot of it is not even intentional at this point. The American aluminum industry (and I assume other metal-foundering industries as well) was essentially destroyed in the '90's by Enron's fixing of electricity prices. It became more cost effective to sell power than metal, and plants were closed. Now aluminum is made in Russia, where price fixing of the opposite sort keeps them artificially competitive. All thanks to a few criminals, a lot of gullible investors, inattentive regulators, and a comedy of errors.
 
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