Church????

[Tanzer]

This question is in no way meant to start any controversy. I'm a churchgoer. Not a saint, but a churchgoer nonetheless. I feel somewhat out of sorts with the idea of carrying to a place of worship, but the whole idea behind CWP's is going home alive if someone threatens my family's/own life. We have a sworn enemy who makes it very clear that they would kill any of us they could, and christians are at the top of their list.
Bombings aside, am I over the top to bring my weapon to chuch? In a restaurant, I can position myself for egress etc if some whacko comes in and starts shooting. Obviously, it would be all but impossible to do so in a crowded church and very difficult to get in a clear shot without innocents beyond the target, but I can't help thinking the day may come when some nut thinks that his god would be praised by shooting up my congregation, and everyone is a sitting duck. About the best I could do is crouch in a pew and wait 'till he walked down the aisle, then shoot upwards. No one knows it's there, I'd be kicked out if they did, I think. I carry a Kel-Tec instead of my regular 1911. Some Does anyone else find themselves in this position?

 

[Doug.38PR]

Tanzer, I know of nowhere in Scripture that states that bearing arms in church is sinful per se. However, having said that, remember why you are there. I don't carry in church because I am leaving business and concerns of the world outside and entering the Kingdom of Heaven's court to pay homage to the King. I don't want to be distracted by the gun on my hip or even distract others with the gun on my hip or any other form of business. There is a time and place for everything. It's primarily the idea of being respectful. I don't carry at weddings or funerals either. (Even in those Westerns. the cowboys and even gunfighers take their guns off before they go into or to Church)

Now, if I though I we were in a VERY dangerous area where church killings and massacres were common, I might reconsider (He might want me to reconsider out of prudence). But I know my fate is ultimately in God's hands, so as it stands now, I think He would rather my mind be kept 100% on paying Him His due respect.

If your conscience (and maybe the Holy Spirit) is bothering you about doing it, then perhaps you shouldn't. As fine Christian Gentleman Robert Edward Lee put it: Do as conscience dictates, if I am wrong let you do better.

 

[The Tourist]

I'm torn by the issue, myself.

It appears to me that many mass killings occur in a place of worship.

Having said that, I know that God wants me to be dependent on Him.

I've gotten into several debates among my fellow worshippers on what our behavior should be in times of threat. And it's a valid debate. My faith has an Apocalyptic message.

Scripture says that our enemies weapons shall fall upon our backs like sheaves of wheat.

And yet I read about people killed in church. Like I said, I'm torn.

 

[Carryabigstick]

I will when I get my permitt. I know of about 5 or 6 guys that carried in my last church.

 

[Doug.38PR]

Carrying or having a gun in no way means that you are not dependant on Him. Just like having or driving a car to get to work doesn't mean you are not dependent on Him. Just like going to the store to get food doesn't mean you are not dependent on him.

It's not a "God vs. Guns" or "God=Peeeeaccccce Guns=War" thing (that is absolute nonsense). It's about respect.

Think of it this way, You go to take a shower because you need to....but you don't wear a gun to the shower (well some of of do as we have seen threads about such things ) because it is too much trouble, will ruin your gun and will get in the way of what you are doing. You go to bed and get sleep because you need to....but you don't wear a gun on your pajamas when turning in because it would be in the way and keep you from getting a good night sleep. Well, it's the same thing in church. You go to church because you need to....but wearing a gun would be a distraction and get in the way for what you are doing there. There is a time and place for everything.

My point is, that a gun is a tool, and like any tool, you can't have it on you 24/7. There is only so much you can do. If you tried to work the gun into every second of your life even at the expense of getting in the way of the task at hand....then you really would be dependant (or rather worshipful) of the gun.

Now, if you think you are in an area where church massacres are frequent and it could very well happen, then go ahead out of prudence and carry. Half the time I forget my gun is even there.

 

[rantingredneck]

I have on occasion, but like you feel funny about it. My wife is adamantly opposed to my carrying in church. Since she made her feelings known on the subject I leave it in the car.

 

[DPris]

It's an individual decision.
About 11 years ago, in a relatively new church, in a newish (in other words- "nice") neighborhood about a mile from where we were living at the time, an ex-husband took his wife at gunpoint from church services. The result was a fatality.
Churches, despite whatever your beliefs in God may be, are neither any safer nor any more immune from random and deadly violence than any other supposedly "nice" place, neighborhood, or area. It's up to you to decide whether you want to place your safety "in God's hands", or your own, and that's the bottom line. It is not about respect, it is not about a distraction. It is about handling your own safety, and that of those you care about.
A deranged gunman could not care less about respect in church. A defensive gun on the spot will have far more of an immediate influence on the outcome of such an extreme situation than God will.
While I don't mean to be disrespectful of anybody's religious beliefs, I've never seen much sense in the "I think I need a gun here, here, and here, but not there, there, or there" philosophy.
There are NO safe zones, anywhere! And, that's not paranoia speaking, it's a retired cop speaking. Statistical probabilities may fall on your side, but if we depended on stats to determine whether to carry a defensive gun or not, we wouldn't carry one at all. Unless you're overly obsessive about having a firearm on you, you stick it in holster or pocket and forget about it as you go through your day, church included. I see no distraction.
Denis

 

[zoomie]

My CHL instructor is a Baptist minister.

 

[Doug.38PR]

DPris,
Let me ask you this. Are you saying that you would feel as unsafe in a church in small town Bible Belt or urbanite yuppie suburbia church (where all the men are straight yet still talk with a lisp to their voice) as you would in 3rd world Islamic state of Dungheap Central Africa?

Yes, anywhere on this earth is subject to something happening, to what degree?
People have been shot in their beds before. Do you keep a gun buckled or hooked ot your pajama pants or under your pillow? Or keep a shotgun under the bedsheets with you

 

[Musketeer]

I am an atheist so any arguments about a divine force taking sides to keep people safe from those who would do them harm fall on pretty deaf ears in my case.

I do know this, when I am required to go to a church for a wedding, funeral or other family function I carry. I carry because the real world evidence shows plenty of situations where, to be biblical, "The sheep were slaughterred because teh sheppard was away..."

All it takes is google and the words "church shootings" to get:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=church+shootings

 

[cuate]

Carry in Church

I don't carry in the small rural church which I attend, I have carried in a city in a large Church a few times, if I lived in a big City I likely would. There have been instances of what I consider deranged persons killing Churchgoers. Would I kill to protect innocent people? I rather believe so without delay or remorse. The killing of "they who deserve to be killed or ought to be" is best left to God and the State but sometimes we aren't given that option.

 

[DPris]

Doug,
1. It's an individual decision.
2. NO place is ultimately safe.
3. I place my faith in my own responsibility to safeguard myself & others around me.
4. Once I made my decision many years ago to accept the responsibility for my own safety, it included everywhere I went unless prohibited by law or process.
5. I do not assess varying levels of risk based on territory or locations I may be passing through (at least in the context of determining whether to carry a defensive arm on me or not).
6. It's an individual decision.
7. Your choice is yours to make.
8. I just suggest you base the choice more on reality than "respect" or "distraction".
9. Did I mention it's an individual decision?
10. I place certain values on my life & those around me. I base my decisions accordingly.
Denis

 

[Limeyfellow]

I have no problems with carrying arms into a church. It used to be considered a great honour at one time to lay your sword on the alter to have it blessed as part of a service to become a knight and most other people would have a knife on them.

Its not until we started seeing the forced disarming of the people starting with all things, knives with their points ground off at dinner tables that we eventually saw arms moved out the church too in the Victorian era. Thats when we also saw things like Christmas take on their modern form instead of drunken revelry across the land and many of the modern traditions and its one of the things thats not been needed but has been so forced upon the people over the past 130 odd years they made it feel sinful and morally wrong to carry into a place of worship.

 

[Doyle]

I don't know what the law is "up there", but there are many states that specifically forbid carrying in churches.

 

[BillCA]

Tanzer,

Get and read the book Shooting Back: The Right and Duty of Self Defense by Charl van Wyck. Mr van Wyck was attending his church in South Africa when several men burst in with automatic weapons and began killing parishoners. All he had was his .38 special snubby.

Using the Bible as his guidepost, van Wyk makes the case that Christians not only have the right but the duty to defend themselves and other innocents from such aggression.

As for me, a non-devout Catholic, I've carried in churches for weddings, a baptism and funerals as well as one fairly recent Christmas mass. Nothing happened and no one knew it was there.

 

[Doug.38PR]

Shooting Back: The Right and Duty of Self Defense by Charl van Wyck. Mr van Wyck was attending his church in South Africa when several men burst in with automatic weapons and began killing parishoners. All he had was his .38 special snubby.

That's the book I was trying to think of! That's in South Africa not Bible Belt USA. But still a good point.


I do like Limeyfellow's comments and think there is definately something to be said about that. My prayer is that I will always use my arms Righteously, Responsibly and in His Service. Be it in sportsmanship in target or skeet shooting, hunting or in a defensive situation.....but I think if I walked before the podium or alter of a modern American pastor and pulled out my Colt Official Police and placed it down asking God for his blessing the pastor would have to go change his pants...church security would be called (if it is a megachurch), church ladies in the front pew would faint or be weting the pews, Deacons or Ushers would tackle me down and I would walk out of church in handcuffs and put into a police car. Some lispy voice "sunday school" teacher might come visit me in jail and tell me (in a very sweet lispy voice and holier and thou way) about how

"Gad doesn't want us to carry guuuuunssss. He wants us to luuuuuuuve our enemies and be at peeeeeaccccce with theeeem. You just don't know the luuuuuve of Jeeesussssss if you think you have to carry a guuuuuun."

DPris,
It is a personal decision, you're right. But it sounded to me like you were of the idea that the danger level is the same in all areas of life.

 

[DPris]

Doug,
Danger levels do vary. But, I find it ludicrous to evaluate each place I'm going to be during the day & plan to carry or not carry based on individual locations' Threat Index. Make it simple.
The gist of my feeling, I suppose, is that, given the No Place Is Totally Safe concept, if your life is worth defending outside a church, it oughta be worth defending inside a church. If you want to turn that over to God, your choice. I personally refuse to believe that God would be offended if you're armed in church, for the right reasons. There are numerous occasions in the Bible where God's chosen people carried on warfare under divine approval. I see no less approval for maintaining the ability to save lives in church by having the ability to do so present. The gun is not inherently evil, neither is its carrier. I have no doubt that God can differentiate between the intentions and character of a man or woman who choses to bring along a daily carry handgun for defense if needed discretely, and someone who does it intending to kill.
May be a matter of mindset. We tell ourselves "Inanimate Objects Are Not Evil, Only People Are Evil", and "The Mere Presence Of A Gun Does Not A Killer Its Owner Make", and expect the gun grabbers to believe us. Why would we not expect God to understand that?
Denis

 

[Justme]

I don't carry in the small rural church which I attend, I have carried in a city in a large Church a few times, if I lived in a big City I likely would

This comment is kinda funny. Of the church shootings I am familiar with they were all rural or small town.

We are not always very good at assessing danger. There are plenty of guys who CCW for their own and their families "safety" yet hop on motorcycles without helmets and drive cars without seatbelts.

In most of america it's a lot more likely that you or your kids will get killed or injured on an ATV than by some act of random violence.

How's that for a poll, how many people with CCW permits also own or operate an ATV?

 

[Al Norris]

I agree fully with Denis.

I carry because, like any insurance, it is seldom used, but if needed, it is there.

I don't differentiate when or where I carry, unless the law forbids that type of carry in that specific place/event. For those times I can not lawfully carry, I really rethink my need to be there at all.

Now, as far as church is concerned, it is not against the law in my State. I carry. Period. It is neither a distraction nor a hindrance to the reasons I'm there.

 

[Jason_G]

Hey Tanzer, this is an interesting thread.
FWIW, it's illegal here in Louisiana to carry into a place of worship.

Jason