Charges dropped against Kentucky Man Who Shot Down Drone

5whiskey

New member
Why must safety be the PRIMARY factor? That's the FAA's primary focus, and safety may be more important to you than your family's privacy, but other people may have priorities that differ from yours.

Not to be too contrarian, but I would argue that safety should always be a primary factor when using a firearm. Even in a legit SD scenario, I have chosen not to engage because of what lay beyond my target. Even though I feel I would have been justified. I'm confident in my abilities, but confidence also includes discretion and judgement.

With that being said, chucking some #8 birdshot in the air at a drone invading your privacy (i.e., in #8 birdshot range) is not something I would consider unsafe. Unless there happens to be a skyscraper like 10 feet away with someone standing on the balcony. I've had birdshot rain down on me numerous times. It's not a great feeling, but it never so much as left a mark.
 
5Whiskey said:
Not to be too contrarian, but I would argue that safety should always be a primary factor when using a firearm. Even in a legit SD scenario, I have chosen not to engage because of what lay beyond my target. Even though I feel I would have been justified. I'm confident in my abilities, but confidence also includes discretion and judgement.
In the context of the post to which I responded, safety was not related to shooting at a drone but to the safety of flying a drone over someone else's property, and whether or not the FAA has jurisdiction over same.
 

carguychris

New member
KBP said:
What is considered the minimum safe distance for AIRCRAFT to fly over private property(houses etc) This is already determined by the FAA.
I discussed this issue piecemeal earlier in the thread.

14 CFR (FAR/AIM) § 91.119 establishes minimum altitudes for conventional manned aircraft. For fixed-wing airplanes, balloons, and airships (i.e. "blimps"), it's 500' AGL or 500' clear of persons, vessels, vehicles, or structures in "other than congested areas," and higher in other areas; takeoff, landing, and in-flight emergencies are exempt. However, for helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft, there is NO minimum altitude provided that "the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface."

However, 14 CFR (FAR/AIM) § 107.51 prescribes operating rules for small drones; it does NOT prescribe any minimum altitudes, and in fact prescribes a MAXIMUM altitude of less than 500' (my emphasis in boldface):
(b) The altitude of the small unmanned aircraft cannot be higher than 400 feet above ground level, unless the small unmanned aircraft:

(1) Is flown within a 400-foot radius of a structure; and

(2) Does not fly higher than 400 feet above the structure's immediate uppermost limit.

[Subsequent sections discussing flight visibility and cloud clearance limitations omitted]
Additionally, this ONLY applies IF the small drone is being operated under Part 107. A drone flown "strictly for hobby or recreational purposes" may be flown under AC 91-57A (see my last post) and the Interpretation of the Special Rule for Model Aircraft, and the FAA's statutory to enforce § 91.119 with regards to model aircraft is unclear, as discussed in JohnKSa's last post.
KBP said:
Drones are now considered aircraft.
This is not necessarily true if they're MODEL aircraft.

The Interpretation of the Special Rule for Model Aircraft briefly discusses the minimum-altitude issue:
...the FAA regulates low-altitude operations to protect people and property on the ground. The FAA permits aircraft operations below 500 feet when flown over open water and in sparsely populated areas. 14 CFR 91.119(c). Such operations may not be conducted “closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.” Id. Therefore, although such low-altitude operations may pose a lower risk to aircraft flying much higher, the operation may still pose a risk to persons and property on the ground warranting enforcement action when conducted unsafely. See, e.g., Adm’r v. Kachalsky, NTSB Order No. EA-4847, 2000 WL 1072332 (July 24, 2000) (affirming a violation of § 91.119(c) for operating within 500 feet of a dwelling in a sparsely populated area); Adm’r v. Beissel, NTSB Docket No. SE-19436, 2013 WL 7809754 (Dec. 11, 2014) (ordering suspension of a pilot certificate when pilot flew a helicopter less than 40 feet above the surface of a lake).

Reading the broad reference to the NAS, along with Congress’ clear interest in ensuring that model aircraft are safely operated, we conclude that Congress intended for the FAA to be able to rely on a range of our existing regulations to protect users of the airspace and people and property on the ground. Therefore, regardless of whether a model aircraft satisfies the statutory definition and operational requirements described above, if the model aircraft is operated in such a manner that endangers the safety of the NAS, the FAA may take enforcement action consistent with Congress’ mandate.
In a nutshell: "We BELIEVE we can enforce § 91.119 against model aircraft for safety reasons, even though Congress really doesn't make this clear." :rolleyes:

However, this ploy didn't work when they tried it in 2013-2014 against Raphael Pirker (the court case linked by JohnKSa).

And once again, the FAA is dancing around the property-rights issue, as they assert this authority in order to "...protect... people and property on the ground..," in keeping with their well-established statutory authority to protect the safety of the general public. The document never discusses trespass.
 

JimPage

New member
I cosnsider protecting my family's privacy as a safety issue. Who knows why someone is spying on me and my family. Perverts, robbers, assassins, etc.
 

Itsa Bughunt

New member
I used to fly model helicopters, one of them being a 600 class TRex that could inflict considerable harm. There have been fatalities. The rules were that these should never be flown anywhere near people, and preferably at a designated flying field. I don't see why similar rules should not be applied to drones, whether recreational or commercial.
 

jdc1244

New member
I cosnsider protecting my family's privacy as a safety issue.

Whatever one’s subjective perception of privacy and safety might be, it doesn’t justify attempts to safeguard that privacy or safety with reckless, irresponsible, and potentially criminal acts such as shooting at drones.
 
Itsa Bughunt said:
I used to fly model helicopters, one of them being a 600 class TRex that could inflict considerable harm. There have been fatalities. The rules were that these should never be flown anywhere near people, and preferably at a designated flying field. I don't see why similar rules should not be applied to drones, whether recreational or commercial.
If the drone is being flown under the model aircraft rules, wouldn't that already be the case?
 

Itsa Bughunt

New member
Drones are being predicted to be used for all sorts of purposes from delivery to surveillance. Hobby rules aren't law, and stuff happens.
 

44 AMP

Staff
To stir the pot just a bit, I saw an article where some bright fellow mounted a 9mm pistol on a drone. SO, drones CAN BE ARMED!!!!

Don't you feel safe now!
:rolleyes:
 
Itsa Bughunt said:
Drones are being predicted to be used for all sorts of purposes from delivery to surveillance. Hobby rules aren't law, and stuff happens.
You mentioned the model aircraft rules, I didn't.

See post #63 by CarGuyChris. If they aren't flying under the model aircraft rules, then they're under the other rule.
 

carguychris

New member
^^^ One of the underlying complications is that "model aircraft" effectively operate in a deliberately constructed regulatory void in which the applicability and enforceability of standard aircraft operating rules isn't clear. I say "deliberately" because the Academy of Model Aeronautics—the NRA of the model aviation world ;)—and some other hobby groups have worked hard over the years to keep it that way, in return for enforcing voluntary operating rules themselves. They don't want the model aircraft hobby to be stifled by the regulatory structure that has (IMHO) stifled inexpensive general aviation over the last 50+ years.

Basically, the AMA has promised that its flyers will play nice, and in return, the FAA (and Congress) have left them largely unencumbered by the FAR/AIM, aircraft registration requirements, airworthiness certificates, annual inspections, and so forth.

The problem is that the proliferation of inexpensive, easy-to-fly "RTF" (industry jargon for "Ready To Fly") drones has totally changed the calculation. No longer do hobbyists need to network and learn from other more experienced hobbyists in order to avoid totally destroying their expensive labor of love within 15 seconds of takeoff. :eek:;) This has reduced the influence of the AMA and their voluntary operating rules, and we've seen that some new hobbyist drone owners feel no compulsion to "play nice."

This is not only a privacy issue; as I discussed earlier, IMHO it's only a matter of time before one of these drones gets sucked into the engine of an Airbus, or worse. :eek:

Also as previously discussed, this sort of thing is likely to prompt states to step in and test the limits of federal airspace preemption with regards to "model aircraft." It's gonna wind up in the federal courts.

I think it's time for me to stop writing on this topic. I'll just say in summary that IMHO the basic answer to the original question – Is it legal to shoot down a trespassing drone? — is that IT'S UNCLEAR. Whether it's prudent or safe to do so is another matter. I'd advise that it's better to be safe than sorry.
 

porkchopper

New member
Consider this

I'm a professional photographer who often does aerial photography jobs from a helicopter and, less often, uses a drone.

In order to obtain the composition that the client needs, say for example, showing a business in relation to the property surrounding it—giving the shot context, I may need to fly some distance away from the actual subject I'm shooting.

Just because I'm in a helicopter, with a camera, hovering over your house, doesn't mean that I'm taking photos of you or your property.
 

2ndsojourn

New member
^^^ porkchopper,

Everyone has privacy rights. Hovering a noisy helicopter over someone's property at an intrusive height will be construed by most as an invasion of privacy. Even though in your mind your intentions aren't bad. If you're going to do that over my house, I'd appreciate advance notice, as would most everyone else. The same goes for drones, which is the topic of this thread.
 

44 AMP

Staff
Drone?? whut's a drone? You mean like a bee? I thought it was a big ol skeeter, and I sure didn't want it bitin me or mine! :D:rolleyes:
 

DT Guy

New member
While we all think of the areas inside our fenced yards as 'private', I don't actually believe nobody can see me in my yard...

I wonder how many folks would have a different reaction to a person parked in a vehicle across the street, taking photos with a telephoto lens?





Larry
 

FITASC

New member
I do expect to see timber companies and power companies take advantage of drones in the near future and of course they will become part of everyday life..........................

Not only those folks bur real estate agents who are marketing large properties like horse farms, cattle ranches, etc. A lot cheaper than hiring a helicopter.

Utilities like them because they can get real close to energized lines without endangering an aircraft or humans.
 
porkchopper said:
Just because I'm in a helicopter, with a camera, hovering over your house, doesn't mean that I'm taking photos of you or your property.
It also doesn't mean you're not. How am I supposed to know?

I know this will probably strike you as entirely unreasonable, but IMHO my right to enjoy the privacy of MY property trumps your "right" (?) to get the picture you want. If you weren't in a helicopter and you were taking photos of my neighbor's house from ground level, would you assert that you should have carte blanche to wander around in my yard to find the right perspective?
 

SHR970

New member
Everyone has privacy rights. Hovering a noisy helicopter over someone's property at an intrusive height will be construed by most as an invasion of privacy.

And in this case the FAA sets the legal minimum height and they are the AHJ. You would need to file a complaint with them. Like it or not if the FAA says they were above legal minimum height they are well within their rights.


I know this will probably strike you as entirely unreasonable, but IMHO my right to enjoy the privacy of MY property trumps your "right" (?) to get the picture you want.

Of course that depends ENTIRELY on how your state or locality defines your rights. We all know that trespass laws vary greatly from state to state. Same goes for privacy laws.

There is a big difference in a "drone" hovering somewhat over a property line in the big city vs. a drone hovering next to your house on a 640 acre spread. We really need to keep this in perspective.
 
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