Charge range for Pietta '58 Rem .44?
- Thread starter Striker1
- Start date
mykeal,
I don't "weigh" any powder for my BP guns as it's my understanding charges are measured by volume. I would bet most any BP substitute measured by volume would not weigh the same as real BP...or am I missing something?
Anyway, I can certainly check what the spout measures against my adjustable BP measure.
Yes, BP powder charges are commonly stated in 'grains/volume'. Which leads to a problem. BP volume powder measures are inaccurate; there is no 'grains/volume' standard by which they are calibrated. (There is a 'grains/weight' vs 'grains/volume' standard, that being water under standard laboratory conditions, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.) I have 4 adjustable volume measures, two fixed volume measures and several interchangeable spouts. I haven't compared them all, but the 4 adjustable measures vary by as much as 15% depending on the charge.
So, we see people saying they use XX grains and get great accuracy. How accurate is that XX grains? My experience tells me it could easily be off by 15% - so is it 90 grains or 77, or maybe 103. Your '24' grain/volume spout could be 20 grains/volume or 28 grains/volume.
In the end, however, the actual number isn't important to you (with one exception I'll mention later); what's really important is consistency. Use the '24' grain spout if the amount it throws gives good performance, and forget about whether or not it's accurate.
However, if you're trying to work up an accurate load, based on someone else's experience, assuming that spout is really throwing 24 grains could lead to confusion. In this case you really need to know what the charge you're trying to match really WEIGHS, and what the actual WEIGHT of powder your measure throws is regardless of what it says.
Finally, you are correct that the bp substitutes are less dense than real black powder and any weights you obtain must be adjusted if you need to know what their black powder equivalents are. There are conversion data published in several internet archives to help achieve that. When dealing with charges by weight it's important to know what the powder is so you can make the conversion if you're using a different powder. If you attempt to get around having to use that conversion by using grains/volume you must then deal with the inaccuracy of the various volume measures.
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That's somewhat interesting, but if I use my adjustable measure and bump it up in 5 gr increments, it would seem that even if it wasn't the actual volume indicated, I would still be increasing / decreasing by a consistent amount. When I find the best one, that'll be "it" regardless of how accurate the number on the side of the measure. In relation, yesterday, while shooting my BP rifle, I compared the spout on my rifle flask against my adjustable measure...30 grains on one matched the other.
This is very similar to how I reload smokeless rounds using my Lee Disk powder measure. It works by volume using different sized cavities. Even using different LOT numbers of the same powder within the same cavity will give differing grain weights.
This is very similar to how I reload smokeless rounds using my Lee Disk powder measure. It works by volume using different sized cavities. Even using different LOT numbers of the same powder within the same cavity will give differing grain weights.
I bought a set of different sized spouts that screw into my Flasks.
I dropped powder from each spout and weighed each one to see what actually came out.
None of them came out to what they were marked for by the package.
I put a label on each one to tell me what to expect from any given spout.
I dropped powder from each spout and weighed each one to see what actually came out.
None of them came out to what they were marked for by the package.
I put a label on each one to tell me what to expect from any given spout.
Dr Killdeer
New member
I have a steel frame '58 Pietta' and the owner's states:
The starting load for a .454 round ball (44 Caliber) using FFFg is 12-15 grains.
The maximum load using FFFg is 35 grains and the max load using Pyrodex is 28 grains.
I personally think the starting load for FFFg is way too low, but that's what the manual says!
The starting load for a .454 round ball (44 Caliber) using FFFg is 12-15 grains.
The maximum load using FFFg is 35 grains and the max load using Pyrodex is 28 grains.
I personally think the starting load for FFFg is way too low, but that's what the manual says!
Years ago, I placed each of my measuring spouts on a flask filled with Goex FFFG black powder, then weighed each of 10 charges on a scale known to be accurate.
The true weight of each of the 10 charges was added up, then divided by 10. This gave me the average. This average was written on a piece of masking tape that was rolled around each spout's exterior.
With the smaller spouts for pistol, the advertised grain weight wasn't far from the measured weight.
But with larger spouts for rifles, the difference was slightly significant. For example, I learned that my 80 gr. spout -- when measured with Goex FFG black powder (my granulation of choice for my .50-cal Hawken) actually threw a charge of about 74 grs. -- a reduction of 7.5%.
Now, will 6 grains variation make a big difference shot-to-shot? It's probably on the edge of effect, but knowing it existed bothered me. So, I bought a 90 gr. spout and measured and filed it down until I reached the length where it consistently threw about 80 grs.
I needn't have bothered. I should have weighed each charge going into the rifle, found the most accurate load, then created a powder measure based on that.
The most disparity I've found on pistol measures is 2 grains, and that's on a 40 gr. measure. With FFFG powder, it throws about 38 grains.
Considering the rudimentary sights on most of these revolvers, the relatively short barrels (compared to a rifle) and the plinking nature of their use, 2 grains variance would be difficult to spot on target.
Factor in my 58-year-old eyes, the "shakes" because I decided to skip breakfast that morning, the momentary lurch of the planet at the exact moment the lead ball travels down the bore (my favorite alibi) and a host of other impediments, and the issue becomes moot.
As for a "standard" load for the .44s, while U.S. and Confederate regulations may have called for X-amount of powder and bullet weight to be standard, dissection of original paper cartridges shows a great disparity in both weights.
Contractors and government arsenals constructed cartridges based on the recommendations of quality control officer Good E. Nuff.
The Nuff family continues to oversee manufacturing tolerances in government and commercial production facilities to this very day. In fact, the Nuff family of inspectors is worldwide and probably intergalactic.
For your steel-framed Remington .44, I'd suggest you consider 35 grs. of FFFG black powder -- or its equivalent -- as maximum when used with a .454 ball and lubricated felt wad.
Beware of Hodgdon 777! It is NOT designed to be used volume-for-volume against black powder, like Pyrodex P is. I strongly suggest you visit the Hodgdon site and read up on 777 (and Pyrodex P, for that matter) before using them.
You CAN overload a revolver with 777 propellant and create pressures beyond those recommended for the cap and ball revolver. I don't like 777 myself because it's tricky stuff to use. Too much seating pressure on a ball can -- apparently -- raise pressures significantly.
I don't have access to a modern ballistics lab so I can't positively state that pressures are increased when you seat a ball hard on 777, but the recoil is felt to be much greater and I've had more incidents of caps fragmenting.
Lacking a cartridge case to measure, it's difficult or impossible to determine when you reach maximum or greater pressures in a cap and ball revolver. Consequently, I use FFFG black powder or Pyrodex P and know that I can't possibly use more than a well made, modern revolver can handle.
For a starting load, I'd go with 25 grains.
Buy a Lee Powder Measure Kit. It has a good variety of dippers and a slide-rule selector that shows how much powder is thrown with each dipper. The various granulations of black powder and Pyrodex P are included.
Pour the powder into a clean powder can at the range from which to dip the measures. When shooting, snap the plastic top on top of the can and move it behind the shooting area so no sparks may reach it.
But to satisfy curiosity, measure 10 loads on an accurate reloading scale and obtain the average. Then place that average on masking tape rolled around each spout's exterior.
I use the tape and notation because there is much higher variance in my memory than in any spout ever made -- and I don't trust the Good E. Nuff family's scrutiny.
The true weight of each of the 10 charges was added up, then divided by 10. This gave me the average. This average was written on a piece of masking tape that was rolled around each spout's exterior.
With the smaller spouts for pistol, the advertised grain weight wasn't far from the measured weight.
But with larger spouts for rifles, the difference was slightly significant. For example, I learned that my 80 gr. spout -- when measured with Goex FFG black powder (my granulation of choice for my .50-cal Hawken) actually threw a charge of about 74 grs. -- a reduction of 7.5%.
Now, will 6 grains variation make a big difference shot-to-shot? It's probably on the edge of effect, but knowing it existed bothered me. So, I bought a 90 gr. spout and measured and filed it down until I reached the length where it consistently threw about 80 grs.
I needn't have bothered. I should have weighed each charge going into the rifle, found the most accurate load, then created a powder measure based on that.
The most disparity I've found on pistol measures is 2 grains, and that's on a 40 gr. measure. With FFFG powder, it throws about 38 grains.
Considering the rudimentary sights on most of these revolvers, the relatively short barrels (compared to a rifle) and the plinking nature of their use, 2 grains variance would be difficult to spot on target.
Factor in my 58-year-old eyes, the "shakes" because I decided to skip breakfast that morning, the momentary lurch of the planet at the exact moment the lead ball travels down the bore (my favorite alibi) and a host of other impediments, and the issue becomes moot.
As for a "standard" load for the .44s, while U.S. and Confederate regulations may have called for X-amount of powder and bullet weight to be standard, dissection of original paper cartridges shows a great disparity in both weights.
Contractors and government arsenals constructed cartridges based on the recommendations of quality control officer Good E. Nuff.
The Nuff family continues to oversee manufacturing tolerances in government and commercial production facilities to this very day. In fact, the Nuff family of inspectors is worldwide and probably intergalactic.
For your steel-framed Remington .44, I'd suggest you consider 35 grs. of FFFG black powder -- or its equivalent -- as maximum when used with a .454 ball and lubricated felt wad.
Beware of Hodgdon 777! It is NOT designed to be used volume-for-volume against black powder, like Pyrodex P is. I strongly suggest you visit the Hodgdon site and read up on 777 (and Pyrodex P, for that matter) before using them.
You CAN overload a revolver with 777 propellant and create pressures beyond those recommended for the cap and ball revolver. I don't like 777 myself because it's tricky stuff to use. Too much seating pressure on a ball can -- apparently -- raise pressures significantly.
I don't have access to a modern ballistics lab so I can't positively state that pressures are increased when you seat a ball hard on 777, but the recoil is felt to be much greater and I've had more incidents of caps fragmenting.
Lacking a cartridge case to measure, it's difficult or impossible to determine when you reach maximum or greater pressures in a cap and ball revolver. Consequently, I use FFFG black powder or Pyrodex P and know that I can't possibly use more than a well made, modern revolver can handle.
For a starting load, I'd go with 25 grains.
Buy a Lee Powder Measure Kit. It has a good variety of dippers and a slide-rule selector that shows how much powder is thrown with each dipper. The various granulations of black powder and Pyrodex P are included.
Pour the powder into a clean powder can at the range from which to dip the measures. When shooting, snap the plastic top on top of the can and move it behind the shooting area so no sparks may reach it.
But to satisfy curiosity, measure 10 loads on an accurate reloading scale and obtain the average. Then place that average on masking tape rolled around each spout's exterior.
I use the tape and notation because there is much higher variance in my memory than in any spout ever made -- and I don't trust the Good E. Nuff family's scrutiny.
Just spent some range time this morning with my Uberti SS New Army. Not going to argue the accuracy of the flask/spout measurement. My flask has a 25 grain spout and I figure its close enough for my needs. Using FFFG Goex and a .454 ball with Wonder Wads, I was chewing out one big hole on the target at 15 yards.
I have always favored the 2nd Generation Colts and always adjusted my aim for the slight rise in the bullet. My Remington is spot on POA/POI like a modern cartridge revolver.
Happy Shooting
I have always favored the 2nd Generation Colts and always adjusted my aim for the slight rise in the bullet. My Remington is spot on POA/POI like a modern cartridge revolver.
Happy Shooting