Cecil the lion

[leadcounsel]

http://news.yahoo.com/hunter-cecil-lion-tells-afp-did-nothing-wrong-142129760.html

An interesting angle from the guide, talking about how they believed it was legitimate - until they realized it wasn't and tried to cover up evidence or otherwise would or should have done more to conceal the misdeed.

"I left the collar there at the bait site and unfortunately that was stupid of me and negligent of me." and "[the client took a picture with the dead lion] "That [picture] was taken with the client's camera, so I don't have access to it, and quite frankly I would never ever give it out to anybody if I had it," Bronkhorst said.

I find it interesting how much faith is being placed in the integrity of our brave dentist (given his prior conviction, the sex harassment settlement, and the believed facts of the killing of Cecil), along with the clear lack of integrity from the guide stating he wished he had done a better job of covering up the kill.

And note his rather naive contradictory statement, coupled with the fact that he is clearly biased because it's the way he makes a living:

Bronkhurst said he believed sustainable hunting was essential for conservation.

"We grew up hunting, our forefathers grew up hunting, and it is part of our culture," he said.

"If you cannot have a sustainable offtake of wildlife, you're not going to have wildlife because no farmer is going to look after them if they cannot make money from them."

Also note that according to National Geographic, the lion population has been decimated by humans (read encroachment and hunting). Since the 1940s the lion population has been cut 95%, from 450,000 to just 20,000 remaining.

It puzzles me how some believe the best solution is to KILL MORE.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I doubt trophy hunters are what decimated the lion population. And, I suspect the resident population would just as soon kill every one of them if they are of no monetary value.

 

[Art Eatman]

As far as "decimation" of African wildlife, the internecine warfare, guerilla warfare, in Africa have been large contributors.

If y'all are old enough to remember the era of Idi Amin in Uganda, during the "troubles", many got their meat via AK 47s on elephants. By the time the fighting ended, the Ugandan herd was darned near gone, gone, gone.

In other areas, population growth and the expansion of farming reduced the habitat in dramatic fashion.

At one time the elephant herds of Africa had free and unfettered travel in their migrations. Well, so did the American bison. The world has changed.

If you don't control the population of herbivores, they eventually wipe out their own habitat. Ask any rancher, be it cows, sheep, goats, whatever.

As near as I can tell from reading, Africa was pretty much in balance until around WW I: No real problems for wildlife vs. indigenous populations of people. Again, the world has changed.

So, various sorts of efforts at conservation. Some work, some don't. And as usual, anytime money enters into the equation, some corrupt sorts of people try to take advantage.

Zimbabwe is a thugocracy. Lots of killings among the two main tribal groups, as well as the horrible rip-off of the white farmers. (Among other things, Google for "blood diamonds".) Mugabe is reputed to have billions of dollars in his Swiss bank accounts, getting a piece of every action in the country--including hunting.

So, yeah, this dentist is a doofus. But he's only one among hundreds from all around the world. It's quite possible he knew going into the deal of the corruption in the licensing methodology. But it's just another corrupt governmental system and one result is this particular lion kill: One among many.

We as a nation are not innocent. Our state department has known about the deal for years and has done nothing to keep our citizens from taking part in the unethical practices of killing lions and elephants in and adjacent to the Kwange National Park.

Howling and yowling about one hunter and one lion is merely ignoring the much larger problem of unethical and anti-conservation killing.

 

[michaelcj]

Very Well Stated, Art….. Could not agree more.

 

[jdscholer]

And Leadcounsel is clearly not the only one on this forum or board who thinks so... I just happen to be the loudest in protest

Boy, you've got that right. Your moral indignation - nay moral superiority is wondrous to watch. We'll see the same attitude from the folks who want to take our evil guns away.

I'm not sorry or ashamed to admit that I come from a long line of barbarians who took joy in the kill that ended the hunt. I'm sad to see that you've shamed many of the hunters here into denying that they feel joy and exhilaration when they kill their prey. God help me if I ever become so evolved that I am numb to the excitement that courses through my blood, nerves and very being when experiencing the animal pleasures of hunting/killing, sex, competition, winning --

The amount of outrage shown over this incident is ridiculous. It would be especially ridiculous if this guy is getting a bum rap, and it will still be ridiculous if he is guilty as sin.

Using terms like "Majestic Beast", and "Hunted to extinction", show a link to fantasy land attitude. These "majestic beasts" weren't hunted to threatened status by legal hunting, yet that is what you desire to abolish.

This world is full of "majestic beasts". I love them, and hope we don't lose any of them to extinction. You want to know what I love more though; HUMANS. Since this debacle has blasted off, there have been many HUMANS killed in horrific and cruel ways, and the silence is deafening. jd

 

[Rangerrich99]

^^^^^

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how we say that . . . nice job.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

I'm pro hunting where there is a bona fide need and the hunt is ethical and fair and requires skill.

I have a very low opinion of someone who kills for sport.

Those two comments are pretty contradictory IMO.
I will hunt anything that tastes good, is a pest(squirrels eating up my garden), or is dangerous. Lions don't taste good and since it wasn't his back yard they aren't being a pest or dangerous to him. I try really hard not to be sporting about it. I take every advantage I can get and make it absolutely as one sided as possible.
That said, I don't find sport hunting any stranger than guys who get wrapped up in Golf, Softball, or anything else similar. I could really care less about any of your trophies.

that HUGE sum of money if put to the cause of actually saving these, rather than killing them.

As much as everyone is willing to post criticism on facebook, few will send any money at all. The hunters certainly have no motivation. There have been many attempts to fund international conservation and none have worked well.

Maybe this will spawn some reform of the process so this money does actually go to conservation efforts.

 

[leadcounsel]

experiencing the animal pleasures of hunting/killing, sex, competition, winning --

The amount of outrage shown over this incident is ridiculous. It would be especially ridiculous if this guy is getting a bum rap, and it will still be ridiculous if he is guilty as sin.

Using terms like "Majestic Beast", and "Hunted to extinction", show a link to fantasy land attitude. These "majestic beasts" weren't hunted to threatened status by legal hunting, yet that is what you desire to abolish.

...really!? Is there a lot of competition when one pays $55,000, has a guide help one lure a baited cat from a sanctuary, at night, using a spotlight to shine it? Then uses poor skill and tool selection to wound it, then finish it off as it lays dying 40 hours later. Then apparently wasting the carcass after attempts to destroy the evidence. Is there really a "competition?" Is there even a .0000001% chance that the lion wins this "competition?" Are hunters being regularly killed by lions that outsmart them with their lights, weapons and techniques. Does the lion know there is even a competition at hand. Seems more like a sucker punch. If that's the measure of competition or manhood then it's a sad test and I'm certainly not interested in associating with such a manly club.

My idea of hunting is 1) an actual need, 2) using some level of skill to hunt, 3) taking a precision kill shot with the right equipment to eliminate unethical suffering, and 4) utilizing the meat and carcass, and 5) ensuring it's all legal, necessary, and above board and not just for pure thrill.

As for my hunted to near extinction comment, how do you explain a 95% man made decline in population in just 7 decades? Please educate us.

 

[rickyrick]

Lots of people have tried to be nice here, but pure and simple; this is bloodlust and at best, to be able to hang a picture up in his office and brag to his friends.

Even if it had gone perfectly it was still for bloodlust. People pay for all sorts of activities that others with a conscience wouldn't do. This story has probably played out many times before, only this one was caught.

 

[leadcounsel]

When 'sport hunting' of big game cannot even get a consensus or even a minimal level of support among pro gun and pro hunters, like myself, and clearly hated by liberals and anti-hunting and anti-gun folks, the 'sport' itself will soon be extinct. Those that support 'big game sport hunting' are in the tiny minority for good reason.

 

[lot12001]

My idea of hunting is 1) an actual need, 2) using some level of skill to hunt, 3) taking a precision kill shot with the right equipment to eliminate unethical suffering, and 4) utilizing the meat and carcass, and 5) ensuring it's all legal, necessary, and above board and not just for pure thrill.

Hear, hear. IMO, the traditional hunter demonstrates self-reliance and thoroughness before and beyond the kill. They recognize not just the animal's value for their living but their weapon's purpose as a valued tool. They can take pride in their proficiency but there is also respect and humility.

This other hunter kills for sport, the one synonymous with amusement. The kill is what they really seek for the rush and vigor the moment provides as well as any memento to their glory. To get to that moment when they can point and pull with deadly intent, they'll follow those who have the skill and knowledge to track an outmatched creature they never needed to kill in the first place. People do take pleasure with their firearms at target ranges but the value for one's weapon here is purely as an instrument of death rather than sustenance.

All hail the mighty hunters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRljaYxhVks

 

[Tom Servo]

Lots of people have tried to be nice here, but pure and simple; this is bloodlust and at best, to be able to hang a picture up in his office and brag to his friends.

Let's be careful how we draw the lines, here.

In my area, we have deer hunters. City folks and northern transplants find the very idea disgraceful.

"Bloodlust! Savages!" come the catcalls from folks who see a buck's head mounted on the living room wall. What those people don't get is this:

• the deer population in my area is out of control
• this leads to starvation, disease, overgrazing, and car accidents
• hunters are the only control for that
• every deer hunter I know puts the meat and hide to good use

So, we could argue that it's OK to keep the head as a trophy in this case, right? What if he didn't make use of the meat? Is it still OK because of population control? Who decides?

There are plenty of folks right now who are more than willing to equivocate the deer hunters I know with Walter Palmer.

 

[olddav]

Let me start with a shocking revelation, "I don't care about the Lion"!
What I do care about is the undisclosed number of people murdered every day by ISIS, 50 million + aborted babies, a government that seems to consist of people who have no concept of right or wrong without an accompanying public opinion pole. The lion in question is like every other lion on this earth, a predator that can and will kill men.
In closing let me say, "I don't care about the lion"!

 

[Husqvarna]

Unfathomable that people writing on a gun forum shows such ignorance.

how about showing, if not support, atleast don't -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- on hunters, even the trophy kind, they/we are brothers in arms after all.

gun activists always speaks about logic and rational thinking, well then apply that to this issue dontcha.

More and more info is trickling out that there wasn't even anything illegal about this hunt.

And trophy hunting helps conservation considerably

If hunting in africa isn't managed whole swats of lands are left barren. by having trophy hunting you bring money into the region. the animals are worth more having a pricetag than as just food for the locals, the locals are employed in the industry and africa isn't as wild as you imagine, the populations needs management, ranchers/farmers needs their livestock and produce protected.

And beloved Cecil? how beloved do you think the name of a white imperialist conquerer was by the local population?

 

[leadcounsel]

Let me start with a shocking revelation, "I don't care about the Lion"!
What I do care about is the undisclosed number of people murdered every day by ISIS, 50 million + aborted babies, a government that seems to consist of people who have no concept of right or wrong without an accompanying public opinion pole. The lion in question is like every other lion on this earth, a predator that can and will kill men.
In closing let me say, "I don't care about the lion"!

So you only have the capacity to care about human plight, but not animal suffering? How about when the earth is depleted of majestic creatures that future generations never get to experience, directly due to man's greed and selfishness? Yes, I also care about the issues you referenced, but 1) it's irrelevant to this topic and 2) it doesn't mean I also can't care about the plight of the species struggling for survival.

More and more info is trickling out that there wasn't even anything illegal about this hunt.

Funny, I was just thinking the opposite. I've been reading more and more damaging and illegal activities surrounding this hunt. From what has been reported even by his guide, this appears highly illegal. For instance, it was reported the land owner did not have permission or a "tag" to hunt a lion on that land. That, my friend, stinks of poaching which carries a 10 year prison sentence in Africa, according to my casual reading and understanding. Not to mention the highly questionable ethics and frowned upon tactics (baiting, luring out of the sanctuary, underpowered bow, shining, etc.) he used in killing Cecil. And he knew immediately what he did was wrong, they tried to hide the evidence, and then he wanted to kill an elephant under questionable ethics.

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Just a thought or two.
News media refocusing of its citizens: Wag the dog __again.

How silly the US population is to worry over the killing of one lion poached or not in Zimbabwe. (cecil wasn't the last male loin on the planet.)

Seems to me there are better subject matters to focus on:

Freshly murdered human fetus's being chopped up and sold for their body parts. Illegal aliens shooting US citizens at whim. Muslim jihadist on the prowl to kill everyone. Mentally ill finding ways to arm themselves so's to kill others when wanting too. And this country is hung up on the demise of poor old Cecil. Wow!!___Such is life I guess.

 

[waveslayer]

I like how some on here comment I am all for hunting but not just to kill an animal, use all the meat etc... I hope those that have commented haven't shot any animals that are more than 1 to 2 years old... that's when the meat is nice and tender.

as for shooting poor old Cecil, nice good job! and yes to those don't know anything about game management. .. you need to reduce some of the old dominate males to increase reproduction of that species, just like elephants. give the young guys a chance!

As far as how much he paid, he over paid by about 15K in my opinion. but if anything was done illegally then yes he should be held accountable, if it was his guide and he didn't know... then the guide should go down.

 

[rickyrick]

I'll keep my opinions about certain people out of this then. I know the hearts of all aren't noble and I'll stop there.

We all agree, it seems, that the sport of trophy hunting is acceptable as long as some other purpose exists. I have seen no evidence that anyone here feels otherwise.

I fully support anyone's chosen activity that is allowed within the law and does not intentionally extend any suffering of the animal. I support rights of all, whether I agree or not.

This story is not even high on my priority list.

 

[jdscholer]

I don't personally know leadcouncil, but you sound like the "Lead Council" for any anti hunting organization. Your tactics and rhetoric fit the MO.

You've taken an inflammatory news story of questionable truthfulness, and used it to paint the image of sport hunting and sport hunters. Hell, you've come here on a hunting forum, and regurgitated your somewhat skewed definition of sport hunting. You say you are a hunter, and of that I am skeptical. You seem to have no love for the "sport", and your love for certain "majestic creatures" seems based more in Disney than in reality.

The reality is that "Sport Hunting" is a legal and honorable tradition that is responsible for the enhancement of game and non-game species throughout the world. For the last century, legal sport hunting has not been responsible for the endangerment of any species. As a matter of fact the best thing that could happen for the welfare of a species is usually to manage it as a legally hunted animal.

No one is more anti-poaching or against habitat destruction than us despicable "sport hunters". People like you, and your moral outrage do a lot to endanger sport hunters, and little to protect the majestic creatures you claim to love.

Many times in the above posts, the criteria for ethical hunting has mentioned "the need", as if there are tons of people who must fill their larder with the ethically killed bounty of mother nature. Most of us "sport hunters" know what a crock that is, and that the delicious creatures that we fry in our skillets usually come in at about $50 per pound.

This whole "need" claim is a fine tool for defining and removing our rights and activities on several levels. God save me from the do gooders who presume to know what I "need".

I have no actual need of the fine collection of weapons that I own, and I've often heard someone like leadcouncil say "Heck, I'm a gun owner, but no one needs that many." -- Kind of like "Even as a hunter, I find this incident deplorable."

This entire incident may be the incredible fiasco that it is painted to be, but it's way too soon to judge, based upon the sources that the "evidence" comes from. It has certainly provided the fuel to further burn the reputation of hunters and hunting, much the same as a mass murder is used to trash the reputation of gun owners in general.

I find it very troubling to see this thing exploited here on a hunting forum, among responsible and ethical hunters, in a way that undermines the activity that we love. The closest I'll ever come to killing a lion will be with an American cougar, and there are plenty of "bunny huggers" (yeah I said it), who would deny me of that privilidge based upon it's "majestic creature" status. I suppose that if I'm ever successful in that hunt and come here to post pics, I'll be equated to the kid who set the neighborhood cat on fire. And by the way, I've eaten cougar, and it is very good.

Happy hunting. jd

 

[Art Eatman]

We've done the round-and-round thing with the information at hand, suspect that much of it is. Enough for now. Give it a couple of weeks or so and if worthwhile apparently-factual info shows up, start a new thread.

As far as discussions of hunting ethics, too often those are mostly, "Two, four six, eight: I wanna vent my hate!" That was fine in junior high school, but it's not rational discussion among adults.