CCW not welcome in Disney Springs

[Aguila Blanca]

Please provide the citation to the section of Florida statutes that says this.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...4&postcount=31

Neither of the two quotes in that post answers the question. In post number 56 you made the statement that

Your "No Firearms Allowed" sign means nothing in Florida and you MUST directly tell the CCL holder to leave.

Nothing in either of the two items in your other post you linked to in any way says that a sign is not sufficient notice that you are not allowed to carry on private property, and nothing in either of those two quotations says that the owner MUST tell you directly, even if you had to walk past a prominent sign to enter.

I'm not a police officer, I'm a building official. I have to attend in-service training every year. About every two years one of the required classes is presented by one of the top prosecutors in the State's Attorney's office. And every time she gives the class, she hammers into us that "If you don't have a citation to a code section, you don't have a violation and I can't help you if you wind up in court."

You have basically stated that signs don't constitute notice, that anyone can walk right past a NO FIREARMS sign and that sign means nothing, that the owner or his/her/its agent MUST notify you in person. Where does it say that in Florida statute?

 

[FITASC]

Florida signs do NOT carry the force of law. IF caught, they can ask you to leave, and if you do not then you are in violation of trespass laws. It is not illegal to carry into most places with these signs (the statutes are specific in listing those places forbidden by law)

all that said, I hate company’s that decide that their private property rights supersede my 2A rights.

Then do not patronize them. Your "rights" only exist between you and the government, NOT private parties as stated above.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Florida signs do NOT carry the force of law.

But davidsog didn't say the signs don't carry the force of law, he said that "The State of Florida does not recognize such signage ..."

In order for it to be correct that the State does not recognize such signs at all, that would mean that under Florida law the signs do not constitute the owner's having given notice that he/she/it does not allow firearms on his/her/its property. davidsog maintains that this is the case, and that the only notice that counts under the law is that the owner or his/her/its agent "MUST" inform you in person. When I asked for a citation from statute to support that assertion, he provided a link to one of his posts that included two quotes that don't say anything of the sort.

So I had to do his homework and look up the statute. It's section 810.09 of Florida statutes:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0810/0810.html

810.09 Trespass on property other than structure or conveyance.—
(1)(a) A person who, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters upon or remains in any property other than a structure or conveyance:
1. As to which notice against entering or remaining is given, either by actual communication to the offender or by posting, fencing, or cultivation as described in s. 810.011; or
2. If the property is the unenclosed curtilage of a dwelling and the offender enters or remains with the intent to commit an offense thereon, other than the offense of trespass, commits the offense of trespass on property other than a structure or conveyance.
(b) As used in this section, the term “unenclosed curtilage” means the unenclosed land or grounds, and any outbuildings, that are directly and intimately adjacent to and connected with the dwelling and necessary, convenient, and habitually used in connection with that dwelling.

(2)(a) Except as provided in this subsection, trespass on property other than a structure or conveyance is a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
(b) If the offender defies an order to leave, personally communicated to the offender by the owner of the premises or by an authorized person, or if the offender willfully opens any door, fence, or gate or does any act that exposes animals, crops, or other property to waste, destruction, or freedom; unlawfully dumps litter on property; or trespasses on property other than a structure or conveyance, the offender commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
(c) If the offender is armed with a firearm or other dangerous weapon during the commission of the offense of trespass on property other than a structure or conveyance, he or she is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. Any owner or person authorized by the owner may, for prosecution purposes, take into custody and detain, in a reasonable manner, for a reasonable length of time, any person when he or she reasonably believes that a violation of this paragraph has been or is being committed, and that the person to be taken into custody and detained has committed or is committing the violation. If a person is taken into custody, a law enforcement officer shall be called as soon as is practicable after the person has been taken into custody. The taking into custody and detention in compliance with the requirements of this paragraph does not result in criminal or civil liability for false arrest, false imprisonment, or unlawful detention.

So the statute is clear that it is NOT necessary for the owner to inform visitors directly, verbally, in person that firearms are not allowed. Posting is specifically noted in the statute as giving notice.

Which also refutes the notion that the State does not recognize signs if they are posted at other than statutorily prohibited places. The State does recognize signs at other places, as giving notice. Further, since we're talking specifically about trespass while armed with a firearm, subsection (2)(c) stipulates that it's a felony offense. Further, the law gives the owner the discretion of detaining the trespasser while the police are called to make the arrest.

 

[davidsog]

But davidsog didn't say the signs don't carry the force of law, he said that "The State of Florida does not recognize such signage ..."

And they do not recognize your individual attempt to limit my state issued license.

So the statute is clear that it is NOT necessary for the owner to inform visitors directly, verbally, in person that firearms are not allowed. Posting is specifically noted in the statute as giving notice.

Sure it does require you to inform and signage is not appropriate for a state issued license holder by statute.

From 810.09:

Whoever, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters or remains in any structure or conveyance, or, having been authorized, licensed, or invited, is warned by the owner or lessee of the premises, or by a person authorized by the owner or lessee, to depart and refuses to do so, commits the offense of trespass in a structure or conveyance.

From 760.06:

The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services is authorized to issue licenses to carry concealed weapons or concealed firearms to persons qualified as provided in this section.

I have a State of Florida issued LICENSE to carry. In other words, the STATE has the authority and has authorized me to carry concealed prohibited ONLY by the specific areas defined in 790.06 and FEDERAL law.

They even took any authority away from any local government to change any laws dealing with firearms:

Except as expressly provided by the State Constitution or general law, the Legislature hereby declares that it is occupying the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, including the purchase, sale, transfer, taxation, manufacture, ownership, possession, storage, and transportation thereof, to the exclusion of all existing and future county, city, town, or municipal ordinances or any administrative regulations or rules adopted by local or state government relating thereto. Any such existing ordinances, rules, or regulations are hereby declared null and void.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.33.html

You as a private individual can put your sign up all day long but you are not the State and do not override that licensing privilege because the State has specified that they are the sole dictate of Firearms and Ammunition. I have a right to self defense that comes from a much higher authority than you and the state has found me responsible and of good judgement to issue a license to carry concealed.

So, You can inform me and order me if my weapon is no longer concealed. I must comply or face trespassing violations after your proper notice. A sign is not proper because I am licensed as stated in the first paragraph of Florida Statute 810.09.

 

[davidsog]

It is very much like when Home Owners Associations try and confuse their parking rules with traffic laws.

 

[labnoti]

...I do not have a First Amendment right to free speech on YOUR property. Nor a 2nd Amendment right to carry a gun, on YOUR property. If you, the property owner allow it, fine. If you don't, that's your right as the property owner.

This is not true. If the private property is a traditional public forum, then 1st Amendment rights do apply. The Supreme Court ruled so in 1948 Marsh vs. Alabama. The 9th Circuit also ruled accordingly in Venetian Casino vs. Joint Local Executive Board (2007). Both those cases were related to sidewalks on private property.

In 1980, the Supreme Court extended 1st Amendment rights to privately-owned shopping malls in Pruneyard Shopping Center vs. Robins.

These rulings dealt with traditional public forums (streets, sidewalks, and parks) which were privately-owned public accommodations. Similarly, a shopping mall is a public accommodation, though it is not a traditional public forum.

1st Amendment rights are not the only rights that apply to private property. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 ruled that private property owners (again, with regard to public accommodations) cannot bar the trespass of persons because of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Prior to that, a property owner had sole discretion whether they wanted to allow Chinese, blacks, Jews, women, or Mexicans (God bless them all). Now they cannot control their private property that way.

Another federal law, the Americans with Disabilities Act rules that public accommodations must provide for disabled people. For example, a private property owner of a public accommodation like a restaurant, movie theater, or store cannot bar a disabled person accompanied by a service animal.

We can see that property rights are not absolute, especially in the case of public accommodations, and they do not grant the property owner sole discretion over trespass.

 

[labnoti]

Florida Statute 790.06 does not require a license holder to inform a law enforcement officer even if they are asked.

I still assert the correct response to security guards and law enforcement is, "I don't answer questions." Without probable cause that a crime has been committed, they have no cause to search your person. Any search without cause would be a violation of the 4th Amendment.

In the State of Florida, you do not have to answer direct questions, and you do not have to inform anyone that you're carrying.

 

[Don P]

It does actually.

I see Florida law as saying a property owner has no say in whether I carried concealed or not on their property.

Clearly stated, Property owners can put up all the signs they want and I can still carry on their property....LEGALLY.

Key word being concealed in the carry permit. If I screw up and my carry is no longer concealed.....Florida law protects a CCL holder. The only thing the property owner can do is ask me to leave. The Police will do nothing outside of checking my CCL and escorting me safely off the property.

Horse fertilizer, Florida law DOES NOT protect you.

If the above happens that you are escorted off private property that means you have refused to go and LE is called. Then you visit the gray bar hotel. Get caught carrying in a hospital.

Yeh I know you are a key board lawyer.

 

[davidsog]

Horse fertilizer, Florida law DOES NOT protect you.

If the above happens that you are escorted off private property that means you have refused to go and LE is called. Then you visit the gray bar hotel. Get caught carrying in a hospital.

Yeh I know you are a key board lawyer.

I have no idea what is crawling thru your brain or what you are thinking is being said here. It is obvious you have not read the thread.

If a property owner asks you to leave, you MUST leave.

The discussion is whether or nor "No Firearms Allowed" signs posted on Private Property in Florida are recognized by the State as being a Firearms Prohibited Area. They are not and do not meet the statute requirement for proper notice for trespassing charges when dealing with CCL holders.

 

[Don P]

I see Florida law as saying a property owner has no say in whether I carried concealed or not on their property.

Clearly stated, Property owners can put up all the signs they want and I can still carry on their property....LEGALLY.

Your words, not mine.

I have no idea what is crawling thru your brain or what you are thinking is being said here. It is obvious you have not read the thread.

Evidently a lot more than you. The OP just made a simple statement that there were no signs posted. If the sign is posted that should tell someone that if they are carrying they are not welcome. Other than the Disney nonsense if LE is escorting off property you are going to jail for armed criminal trespass . This thread morphed into a sign thread. By the way where do you live Mr. key board lawyer?

 

[Frank Ettin]

But davidsog didn't say the signs don't carry the force of law, he said that "The State of Florida does not recognize such signage ..."

And they do not recognize your individual attempt to limit my state issued license.

So the statute is clear that it is NOT necessary for the owner to inform visitors directly, verbally, in person that firearms are not allowed. Posting is specifically noted in the statute as giving notice.

Sure it does require you to inform and signage is not appropriate for a state issued license holder by statute.

From 810.09:

Whoever, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters or remains in any structure or conveyance, or, having been authorized, licensed, or invited, is warned by the owner or lessee of the premises, or by a person authorized by the owner or lessee, to depart and refuses to do so, commits the offense of trespass in a structure or conveyance....

From 760.06:

The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services is authorized to issue licenses to carry concealed weapons or concealed firearms to persons qualified as provided in this section.

I have a State of Florida issued LICENSE to carry. In other words, the STATE has the authority and has authorized me to carry concealed prohibited ONLY by the specific areas defined in 790.06 and FEDERAL law.....

That comment of yours is beyond ignorant and a clear indication that you know nothing about law. In context, as used in 810.09 "licensed" doesn't mean having a concealed weapons license (nor would it mean having a contractor's license, or a driver's license, or a dog license, etc.)

As used in 810.09, as a matter of property law, a "license" is :

...permission to enter or use the property of another...

A concealed weapons license is not a license to enter private property. It is merely a license to carry a concealed weapon in public. One's rights to enter private property with a concealed handgun remain subject to the property rights of the owner of the property, whether or not the person entering the property has a license to carry a concealed weapon in public.

Do not continue to post nonsense.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The discussion is whether or nor "No Firearms Allowed" signs posted on Private Property in Florida are recognized by the State as being a Firearms Prohibited Area. They are not and do not meet the statute requirement for proper notice for trespassing charges when dealing with CCL holders.

No, it has not been argued by anyone that posted "No Firearms Allowed" signs are recognized by the State of Florida as being a Firearms Prohibited Area. What I have pointed out is that owners of private property have the right to prohibit the carry (or possession) of firearms on their property. Even you have agreed that this is the case.

The disagreement is whether or not a posted "No Firearms Allowed" sign constitutes notice by the owner, such that if you ignore the sign you are trespassing even before the owner or his agent speaks to you. You are misconstruing the use of the word "license" in the statute pertaining to trespass, taking it to refer to the license to carry a concealed firearm. It doesn't. As Frank Ettin explained, the word "license" as used in Section 810.09 of the statute does not refer to a license to carry a concealed firearm. The statute very clearly does recognize a posted sign as providing notice to the public that the owner does not allow firearms.

 

[osbornk]

I think we have veered far off the OP's original problem and observations. His issue was not being allowed to carry on a Disney owned property. As I said previously, I have not been able to find any amusement park facility and their surroundings that allow carrying while on their property. I guess that means that any person who insists on carrying cannot use or visit an amusement park or their related facilities. The one that disturbed me the most was where an amusement park (I think Kings Dominion) owned a campground and did not allow guns there. Where would someone who owns a gun keep it?

 

[Tom Servo]

The guys who actually passed the bar exam have weighed in, and everyone's had their say.