Carrying Personal Weapons in Military

[jmhyer]

Fred,
I appreciate your service and respect your opinion. However, the concern you expressed above is one of the common arguments against everyday citizens carrying in public anywhere...but, in particular, on college campuses or in any densely populated area. Just curious how you would counter those arguments...or are you also against citizen carry? Not trying to start an argument, just trying to see how the two scenarios are different.

 

[joed]

I think things are different in a combat zone. While in Vietnam I saw many guns that you normally wouldn't see. One of the pilots carryed a Ruger Blackhawk, while someone carried a .45 tommy gun on patrols. I had a sergeant that carried a Browning hi power. There were many more that I can't recall at the moment.

Don't think this would go over in the states.

 

[OzeanJaeger]

You have to remember most service men are 18-20. I was for changing the legal drinking laws to 18 till I spent time at on-base Eclubs. That pretty much cured me of the notion that anyone who can be sent to war ought to be able to drink...

Same thing goes for POFs. Follow the laws (21) and it should be fine. I certainly do not believe than any E-5s or above should not be allowed to carry a side arm at all times if they should choose. I think it's insulting and factually wrong any other way.

 

[ATN082268]

On the same subject of persona carry by soldiers

Few years back here at Fort Hood we had the nut case major kill and shoot up the place

Started a National debate about why soldiers should NOT all be ARMED ALL the TIME

If anything, that incident should have given pause as to why more soldiers aren't armed. After all, most soldiers weren't allowed to carry weapons on base at the time, which allowed Major Nutjob to carry out and be more effective in his killing spree.

I shudder at that thought....13,000 soldiers all zooming around Fort Hood every day is a bad idea

Lost weapons
Idiot pointing at freind
accident discharges
failure to clear properly
Drunk and pist at buddy for messing with girl friend
Re-po man getting the car/tv you will not pay the bill for
Sargent yelled made you feel small

My last ten years of peace time Senior NCO Leading had me dealing with personal problems every day

IMO Every soldier Armed Every Day is a disaster looking for a place to happen...motor pool, chow line, PX.... barracks....

super Shudder

O.K. First, allowing soldiers to carry weapons doesn't automatically mean every single one will. Second, and more importantly, if someone does something irresponsible with a weapon, like point it at other people, that should be dealt with by punishing the irresponsible person. If I had to guess, I'd say a large part of the resistance to allowing all soldiers to carry centers on those uncomfortable with treating armed people like crap. How about treating people with respect? Isn't respect one of the Army values?

 

[fredvon4]

The question on personal carry on a military base vs allowing college students or other segments of our society

My opinion is from being an Army brat starting in 1955 until I retired from all government service in 2012....57 years of living on or near military bases

Riots----barracks or clubs or motor pools
Drug dealers
Prostitution...external and internal
Conscripted or court ordered soldiers NOT wanting to be there
Officer and NCO fragging
Willful sabotage of equipment
Wife beating
Suicide
Race relations issues
Gender relation issues
Rapes...all genders
Murders
Bank robbery
Pay Officer robbery... (90% eliminated when we moved to direct deposit)
Arms room, ammo storage thefts
lost equipment..specifically weapons
Tired wet sick miserable grumpy soldiers

list not all inclusive of all the bad problems I dealt with in my career.... nor is it sorted in any way...just of top of head

Since we changed to an all volunteer Army, mid 1974, a lot of the problems reduced BUT still exist

I could see a personal security argument for SOME soldiers to be armed daily to augment military police by being a built in first responder within a unit work area

The notion being the problem is right here right now and MPs are 10 min away

Part of my knee jerk NO WAY for ALL SOLDIERS ARMED ALL THE TIME:

IN 1973 PFC Green did not like me and my recent promotion to Corporal
He came sneeking and creeping one night with his issued bayonet while we out in the "field" training

He intended to kill me.... something he told one of his friends. That guy told his sergeant, who reported it to the commander. Who told me. Plan was to bed down as normal but First shirt and some trusted NCOs would intercept Green who was courts martial for attempted murder

Yes ----certainly, we can all agree that if all soldiers were armed the 2009 Fort Hood shooting; where Nidal Hasan, a U.S. Army major and psychiatrist, fatally shot 13 people and injured more than 30 others ---would have probably not even have happened

BUT every bad indecent ...and I assure you there would be some... of soldier on soldier weapons involved ...would just give anti gun folks too much ammo (bad pun)

My core belief on general population.... we have very good stats here in Texas since Concealed Carry became legal....the bad actor License holders are a small fraction of the anti gun folks predictions

I prefer Constitution 2nd Amendment restrictions be very limited and all citizens behave responsibly to keep each other safe all the time

 

[carguychris]

I think things are different in a combat zone. While in Vietnam I saw many guns that you normally wouldn't see. One of the pilots carryed a Ruger Blackhawk, while someone carried a .45 tommy gun on patrols. I had a sergeant that carried a Browning hi power. There were many more that I can't recall at the moment.

Pilots of what?

FWIW I read a book a while back about Vietnam scout helicopter ops flying the OH-6A Cayuse aka Loach, and the author reported having routinely worn a Colt Python(!) during combat missions.

His explanation was that the Army was perpetually short on scout helo pilots since they were in high demand and the missions were very dangerous; to help meet recruitment goals, helicopter pilots were allowed to enlist as warrant officers who were only obligated to serve a preset number of tours of duty. Commanders knew that the pilots wouldn't reenlist unless they were kept happy, and since few of them intended to pursue promotions, most didn't care about minor disciplinary black marks going on their permanent record. The result was that discipline was rather loose when no senior officers from off-base were present.

 

[SIGSHR]

Respect an Army value ? Not in the Army I was in 1967-1971. The Army I served was not so much anti-gun as it was ungun. Small arms were seen as at best a necessary evil and and as an annoyance and nuisance. They were a source of endless gigs at inspection time, a PITB to inventory, the loss of a small arm was greater offense than losing classified information or an aircraft. Rifle and pistol teams, gunnery competitions had all ended, recreational shooting opportunities for a single EM living in the barracks were non-existent.
People went on Guard Duty with a mop handle or broomstick to guard equipment and sensitive installations.
On another board someone pointed out that the reason why poor leaders do so much damage in the military is because the workers can't quit.

 

[joed]

Pilots of what?

FWIW I read a book a while back about Vietnam scout helicopter ops flying the OH-6A Cayuse aka Loach, and the author reported having routinely worn a Colt Python(!) during combat missions.

His explanation was that the Army was perpetually short on scout helo pilots since they were in high demand and the missions were very dangerous; to help meet recruitment goals, helicopter pilots were allowed to enlist as warrant officers who were only obligated to serve a preset number of tours of duty. Commanders knew that the pilots wouldn't reenlist unless they were kept happy, and since few of them intended to pursue promotions, most didn't care about minor disciplinary black marks going on their permanent record. The result was that discipline was rather loose when no senior officers from off-base were present.

The pilots I was referring to were the pilot and observer on the LOH aircraft. As said it was a dangerous life but it was better then marching over the land. I never understood carrying a Blackhawk .357 that was slow to reload.

I was trained as a crew chief for Cobras but in the time I was there I had many jobs, including flying in a LOH for a short time.

But in the time I was in Vietnam I saw my share of guns that were not issued by the ARMY.

 

[jimbob86]

Every unit is as different as it's Chain of Command ..... and things in a particular unit can change very drastically with a Change of Command ...... and the Army as a whole changes over time, as well ..... I saw plenty of change in the 11 years I was in (84'-95') .... and heard enough from others that I served with about units that they had come from or went to subsequently ..... I also know that much of what gets passed around is pure BS ("War/Sea Stories") ..... and so few people today have any military experience at all in relation to the total population, that a lot of BS can't be verified. ..... and then were things that did actually happen that would get swept under whatever rug or trash pile was handy .... really unbelievable stuff .... but it happened.

 

[jmhyer]

Thanks for the reply, Fred. I'm also thankful for the reply of Ozean, who, I think, nailed it. Allow the option of armed carry, be it open or concealed, on military bases for those who would otherwise be able to do so as a private citizen...namely, those over the age of 21 who can apply for, and be issued, a permit.

 

[Bob Wright]

In the current issue of True West magazine there is an article of an Army officer who carried a Colt Single Action Army in .44-40 caliber. The gun was nickeled with the hard rubber stocks.

Supposedly the gun was carried both during the Korean war and in Vietnam. The gun was sent to him by his wife while he was serving in Korea as a captain, and is engraved along the backstrap as such. He was a major general in Vietnam. He was Gen. Stan Leon McClellan

According to the article, he was laid to rest in "Arlington National Cemetery with full military honors, it was according to his last wish in his camouflaged fatigues with his medals of valor pinned on his chest, and his General Officer's .45 ACP holstered, loaded, cocked and locked, so that he would be ready when his country calls."


Bob Wright

 

[ms6852]

Funny thing is that I served for 21 years and I cannot honestly say if it was true. Never ever thought about it and did not care because I was assigned an M16 or a 1911, depending on my duty assignment. Our personal knives were not a big deal with any of the units I was assigned. I carried a Carl Schleipper fixed blade and a 110 buck knife than. I did not own any firearms until I retired from the military. For me it would have been too much of a hassle to have had to transport and register all my firearms. This was like the knife I carried.http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xgAAAOSwBLlVTS8R/s-l400.jpg

 

[5whiskey]

It is a no-no and I suspect this gentleman is lying. It CAN be done, but you must make well connected friends willing to stick their necks out. I deployed to Iraq and afghanistan as USMC infantry. I made a comment one time about wanting to take my 1911 to the unit armory rep. He told me if I got it over (easy as there really wasn't a bag check going over), he would put it on the armory connex on the way back. See getting it back is the problem as your belongings WILL get thoroughly searched. It is possible if you can stash it in a gear connex.

I decided that it wasn't worth it. Not only was I counting on a buddy to pull through 7-8 months later, I also didn't know how long it would take for that connex to get stateside or who would be around when it was unpacked.

In the end I think the guy was fibbing. He definitely wasnt supposed to take a personal weapon, and it sounds more like a braggart story. I don't tell many stories about Iraq. I personally just want to forget the place.

 

[44 AMP]

The carry, and use of "unauthorized" weapons, especially handguns, by people of rank, and people of no rank, during WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam is well documented.

Sometimes they were war trophies, sometimes they were sent by relatives, sometimes they were acquired on the black market. Sometimes they went home with their owners, sometimes they were passed on to others in theater.

I know that the troops fighting in "the sandbox" are more rigidly regulated than earlier wars, but I'm certain a degree of the same thing still goes on.

I can tell you from personal experience that just about ANY handgun is more useful inside your sleeping bag than an M16. And that there are still people in the military who value their own skins higher than what they consider BS regulations. I clearly remember a time when, one of the common answers to "hey, that's against regulations!" was "what are they going to do??? Bend my Dog Tags and send me to Viet Nam???" (especially when you were already in Viet Nam)

The same still goes on today. The sense of personal security provided by an "unauthorized" handgun overrides "mickey mouse" regulations for some folks. Once upon a time, commanders allowed for this. I think some still do, as long as everything flies under the radar.

There are many stories from vets about how a pistol that they weren't officially allowed to have saved their butts. I've read about a .38 that went through several Marine's hands on one of the island campaigns.

One fellow I knew who fought in the pacific really wanted a Japanese pistol as a war trophy (and yes, he did carry "unauthorized"). He finally got his "Jap Pistol" on the FOURTH try. The first three pistols he captured were all American made, 2 S&Ws and a Colt!! nicely made Japanese holsters, but US guns!! (Japanese officers apparently liked American pistols )

 

[Cirdan]

GO #1 in Iraq prohibited personal weapons.

Not saying it didn't happen sometimes, but I suspect the guy was BS'ing you.

 

[jmr40]

I have several friends who have served in the Middle East dating back to the 1st Gulf War in the 1990's up to the present. All of them have said that non-issue weapons, especially handguns were available. But it was impossible to bring one over or bring it back. Most were picked up after they got there. When they left the country they'd give it to someone else and it continued to be passed down as troops rotated out. This was technically not allowed, but it still happened.

I know that some high ranking officers are the exception as well as some Special Forces soldiers. Some of those guys have a lot of leeway as to what they can use.

 

[armoredman]

We had a pallet of ammo on my ship for "special" troops, and I can tell you it had a LOT of unusual calibers and origins. Lots of Russian and Chinese stuff too. Don't remember where we unloaded it.

 

[WC145]

The "modern" military is hardly the same as it was during Vietnam and earlier wars and it is a lot less tolerant of such shenanigans. I was in in the early '80s and nothing much as happening in the world so it was a nonissue during my enlistment. My son is 10 years USAF, he's in spec ops with multiple combat visits to the middle east under his belt(currently deployed somewhere doing something for an indeterminate amount of time). He had I have discussed this sort of thing and, per him, personally owned firearms in theater doesn't happen these days or, if it does, is incredibly rare and a great way to ruin your career, he's never seen one in all of his deployments and he works with other spec ops types from all branches as well as other countries, in addition to conventional troops. He says they all kinds of different weapons available to them and no need to take the risk of trying to bring a gun from home with them. In his case, his issued weapons are a Glock G19, an M4, and a SCAR-H, with a multitude of others available for mission specific needs.

Magazines are not an issue and he and everyone he works with uses PMags if they're available for the platform. Knives are also a non-issue, they are issued different knives including automatics, but everyone also carries personally owned blades and everyone carries more than one.

My son has no reason to BS me so I'd say that the person the OP is talking about is BSing him.

 

[Andy Blozinski]

I'm surprised there were posters on this thread that actually thought .45 ammo would be hard to get in the US military. It's still available and .45s had a resurgence of popularity in Iraq. Someone carrying their personal .45 would not have been recognized as different from someone carrying one that was supplied to them.
There was a shortage of .556 ammo for a long time because we hadn't prepared for anything past the invasion. Hordes of captured PPSH-41s got used over there. They're great compact close quarters weapons. A buddy of mine used one. I was on a different forum where some ex army guy said stupid civilians didn't know what they were talking about and were making this all up. Someone promptly posted a dozen photos of US army soldiers packing PPSH-41s in situations that were practical operations and not range posing.

 

[ROCK6]

So, a good friend and NCO working in a LRS unit during one of the first waves into Iraq did exactly that. He as able to purchase his Springfield 1911 and had it shipped to his unit address before he deployed (at a great cost BTW). His commander approved his use of it, but ammo was limited. It's rare to non-existent in conventional units and especially in established theaters, but some units get more leeway than others and with immature theaters, it's easier.

ROCK6