"Carry Rotation"

[mavracer]

Isn't a competence thing. It's a muscle memory thing.

I'd suggest you go look up the definition of unconscious competence.

Your left foot will automatically go for the clutch pedal

Much like when I switch to my XD this causes no issues

 

[KyJim]

I will carry 1911s and guns with a similar manual of arms like the Sig P238. I will also carry a couple of different handguns that have no active safety and requires only a pull of the trigger. I agree with those who say it is not a problem if you swipe down for a safety on a revolver in the event your muscle memory takes over. I either carry at the 3:30-4:00 position or in a pocket holster.

 

[K_Mac]

I carry three different handguns. A GP 100 for woods carry, and an SR9c or LCP for concealed carry. The striker fired compact 9 has an external thumb​ safety. The gen 2 LCP is hammer fired with a long DAO trigger, and no safety. I am comfortable with these platforms and do not consider myself at risk because of the differences.

 

[ShootistPRS]

Although I do sometimes carry a different gun my standard carry is my 357. I have carried it for 45 years, practiced with it, competed with it and even hunted with it. I have several holsters but my carry holster is a shoulder holster which is what I train with more than any other. If you have never had to draw your gun under the stress of life risk then you don't know for sure you will do it right. I have. All my training, the muscle memory and the subconscious recognition of the target, what was behind it and the entire field of sight all works.
I have never tried that with my 45 Colt but I know the grips are different and I doubt that I would be able to point instinctively with it. For those of you who rotate guns try to shoot your gun at a target 7 yards away from the waist just to see if you really know the different guns.

 

[cslinger]

I agree. It's funny what you will do by muscle memory. For me personally.

I always said I would slingshot the slide under "stress" but used the slide lock in practice......no matter what I told myself before the buzzer went off.......yep used the button.

I like and prefer paddle mag releases or at least a button on my trigger finger side. I prefer using my trigger finger to drop mags. (Smaller hands). When I am shooting normal mag releases.........yep I go for the paddle / trigger finger side button instinctively.

Decocking. I cut my teeth on TDA type guns (SIGS etc). I find myself "decocking" a great many striker pistols before holstering / on first shot etc. I have generally migrated back to hammer fired TDA so I tend to want to "decock" Glocks instinctively.

Riding the hammer into a holster. I ride the Glock hammer too.

Point is none of this is under stress and I still do it. Hence my bedside gun is a HK P2000 V3 .40, my carry gun is an HK P2000 V3 .40. My upstairs gun is an HK P2000 V3 9mm my itty bitty sometimes carry is an HK P2000sk V3 9mm.

I have lots of guns and I shoot for fun and it's my hobby. I don't "train" per say for violence and I shoot a wide variety of guns. That being said even I see the critical benefit of the one gun/one platform for any kind of serious use. For me it's HK V3 guns. Paddles, big slide locks and decockers. I enjoy them the most, I shoot them the most and that manual of arms is what's ingrained into me.

GAHHH if I had to swipe a safety off under the stress of a timer I would miss it damn near most of the time and I would have to train like hell to be ingrain it even though I always shoot 1911s first shot from safe...........right after I decock them.

 

[OldMarksman]

You need to stay away from those places you think you're going to be ambushed.

Well, we can all agree on that.

However, we do not expect to be ambushed in places where we do not think we're gone to be ambushed.

In fact, the likelihood that we will ever have to pull a gun on any given day is far less than remote.

But the potential consequences of not being able to do so timely are extremely severe.

You are not going into combat when you take the dog for a walk or go to the movies

What does "going into combat" have to do with it?

 

[huntinaz]

the idea is laughable that a person can't be competent enough to switch back and forth, the Dunning–Kruger effect is certainly in play here.

I'm with Mavracer, people have competences with multiple tools all the time. Ask (or better yet watch) any tradesman. When I pick up a revolver I know it's a revolver. When I pick up a 1911, I know it's a 1911. When I pick up an XD...

 

[Brit]

I have done a lot of fighting, in England mostly.

In a threat, I find my foot will fly, or a fist. Even the often used Liverpool Kiss.
Head butt to the bridge of his nose.

Coming upon a fight in a club (Me working there) a back of a combatant facing me. Study anatomy! The Kidney is a show stopper! Bring your fist in from belt level, hard, punch through the spot your fist will land. Move on to the next one.

From the front, the throat is so sensitive.

The starter bell is a knife, or gun? Draw and fire, at least in multiples of two.
Real close, the nose, or eye socket.

The guns? Same gun, same place always. I use two Glock 19s TruGlo night sights, extended slide stops, factory. Butt plug, flush fit, makes for great mag changes. Flash light on left, G17 spare mag. Too. 124g NATO Hardball.

Do not open the slide a bit to check chamber, my pistols have a wee square on the extractor, confirms chamber status. My lock blade is a Bench Made, expensive, a present from my Son. 3.5" razor sharp blade.

 

[Arizona Fusilier]

I guess I'm guilty. But in my multiple-gun defense, I absolutely acknowledge the reality of muscle memory, and purposefully​ use other physical clues to reinforce my "drill" and remind me what I am carrying, namely a combination of location and holster choice.

For example, if I'm diving into a cargo pocket, you know I'm not fishing for a 1911. And my Beretta 92f is the only thing that has ever ridden in a GI/Galco full-flap holster, and is about the only gun I use in open-carry/wilderness situations.

No manual safeties on either Sigs or Glocks. Pull the trigger after disengaging the thumb-break at 3 o'clock, and it goes bang.

I think you get the point. Does my technique work? Well, I'll let you know when I get into the aforementioned ambush.

 

[CDR_Glock]

I agree that things can become over complicated. A few years back, I alternated amongst 1911s, Glocks, revolvers.

Since then, I have simplified it into two firearms:

I carry a Glock 19 MOS (IWB) and a S&W 640 357 (pocket). I was just carrying a revolver and a backup revolver prior to this. When I hike or hunt, I have a DA/SA revolver in addition to my primary hunting tool.

As long as the relative operation is similar, I don't think it makes a huge difference...Even with muscle memory. I shoot a variety of concealed carry handguns to stay competent and effective but they do share the same qualities:

No external safety
Double action

If there are handguns with sights that require a target to be covered (at less than 15 yards), versus 6:00 hold (Big Dot XS) or a S&W M&P, versus a 6:00 hold like the rest of my pistols, that can be a big issue.

When you are switching amongst different designs of semiautomatics, I can see confusion as to whether flipping up removes the safety or flipping down does. The other Hangup is the magazine release which can be along the thumb side, index finger side, along the bottom of the grip or bottom of the trigger guard.

Lastly, there is always a variation in round count. Some 15+1, versus 10+1, versus 8 and so on. But that should be predetermined by what you're choosing for the day.


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[OldMarksman]

When I pick up a revolver I know it's a revolver. When I pick up a 1911, I know it's a 1911. When I pick up an XD...

Of course.

At the range.

And we do not try to eject the empties from a Ruger Blackhawk the same way as we do from a Smith and Wesson Model 27. Yet we can handle either one. At the range.

Nor does the odd location of the ignition switch of our restored SAAB 900 keep us from starting it just because it isn't the same as our F-150 daily driver.

None of that relates to the short-split-second reaction required in an emergency under stress. There are automotive examples and analogies pertaining to aircraft.

What the trainers tell us is that for defensive carry, it is best to carry the same or an almost identical gun every day and to carry it in the same place on the body.

 

[K_Mac]

OldMarksman I do not question the advantage of carrying the same gun in the same way everyday. I generally do. That does not mean I will not act just as quickly and accurately with my LCP or revolver in a high stress situation. Having never had to draw a weapon​ in a life threatening encounter I can't know this for sure. I don't accept that having a thumb safety on my primary carry, and not on my secondary​ ones puts me at greater risk.

 

[huntinaz]

Of course.

At the range.

Not just at the range. At a certain proficiency level you know the difference (and can apply that to action) at all times. As Mavracer put it if you aren't proficient with a given weapon, that's a training issue. A physical handicap if you will. It looks to me like it's also a mental handicap.

What the trainers tell us is that for defensive carry, it is best to carry the same or an almost identical gun every day and to carry it in the same place on the body.

LOL yeah I understood what you are asserting the first time, even without italics. I'm saying I disagree with it as a blanket statement. Sure, for the average Joe who shoots one firearm well and wants to keep things simple, that't probably a really good policy. In fact it's never a bad policy. However I think plenty of shooters can proficiently carry different pistols effectively.


I'm not saying you should do something you aren't comfortable with. I think you should do what you feel is best and if that is carry the same pistol all the time hey, that's super. No skin off my arse. I just think it's pretentious for a body to impose their skill-set on others which is how I see the original post and a number of responses.

 

[OldMarksman]

That does not mean I will not act just as quickly and accurately with my LCP or revolver in a high stress situation. Having never had to draw a weapon​ in a life threatening encounter I can't know this for sure.

It is likely that none of us will ever find out.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

There was nothing pretentious about my original post.
But, there is here- this is my "skill-set" I have been carrying a gun for about 45 years. I have carried almost every type. I have worked on them professionally. I have taught people to shoot. I own and am proficient with more guns than most people have ever seen.
My post was a very general one, directed at people just like you-who think they are smarter and more proficient than most.
MAYBE you can pull it off. MAYBE you can't.

But, my advice can keep your arse alive- and it's no skin off MY arse.

 

[K_Mac]

My post was a very general one, directed at people just like you-who think they are smarter and more proficient than most.

The above quote clearly shows your intent. Those of us who don't agree with you may, or may not, be smarter and more proficient than you think we are capable of. Who are you to judge?

 

[OldMarksman]

At a certain proficiency level you know the difference (and can apply that to action) at all times.

At all times? That might end up in the category of famous last words.

...I think plenty of shooters can proficiently carry different pistols effectively.

Most of us can carry anything "effectively". The important question is one of how we will react at that instant that counts, and how quickly we will draw, present, and fire.

I'm not saying you should do something you aren't comfortable with.

The question is whether that "comfort" can be tested.

I was quite comfortable carrying a striker fired pistol with a manual safety that was similar in operation to a 1911, but somewhat different in location. I practiced extensively, and I convinced myself that I knew what I was doing.

I took a course under a well-known trainer who strongly advised against carrying a gun that required a separate operation to disengage a safety--the exception being the 1911, for obvious reasons.

And guess what--the first time I failed to disengage that safety happened to occur in a class when he was watching--not a high stress situation, but perhaps with some performance anxiety. I don't care whether it was the result of a "physical handicap" or a "mental handicap". It happened, and under different circumstances, it could well have led to disaster.

That was also the last time. He told me to keep the safety disengaged for the rest of the two day class. And then I replaced the gun with one with a grip safety only.

That trainer now carries the same gun.

I just think it's pretentious for a body to impose their skill-set on others which is how I see the original post and a number of responses.

Not at all.

It is simply the considered advice of experienced trainers. Some of them see a dozen or more students training in long two day sessions more than once a week. And they share their observations with others.

They see more different techniques, different holsters, different carry positions, and different firearms used under high-performance training conditions than I have, or than most of us do.

I choose to follow their advice.

 

[OldMarksman]

Those of us who don't agree with you may, or may not, be smarter and more proficient than you think we are capable of. Who are you to judge?

Bill did not opine about anyone's intelligence or knowledge or level of proficiency.

He did remark about people who think that they know more than they actually do, and there is a lot of that going around.

I have had a touch of it myself, off and on over the last fifty five years of pistol shooting. That's why I have availed myself of the best defensive shooting training I could find. That training has taught me things that I did not know I did not know.

And there's surely more to be learned.

 

[huntinaz]

My post was a very general one, directed at people just like you-who think they are smarter and more proficient than most.

No, it was a very pointed one directed at folks who do things differently than you. You essentially worded is as: I'm smarter than you, I'm better than you and you darned well better be doing it this way or your liable to get killed. That's not a topic for discussion and you're going to get posts like mine in rebuttal.

You took decent advice and made it into an ultimatum which is completely ridiculous. An experienced shooter would recognize this as a generally good idea but that it's not an end-all be-all way of doing things because people can learn to shoot and be proficient with a number of different firearms and can tell the difference when carrying one or another.

My guess is that you are a very proficient shooter but that doesn't mean the theory you buy into is the only thing going. I think mavracer hit the nail more squarely on the head than I first thought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

 

[huntinaz]

He did remark about people who think that they know more than they actually do, and there is a lot of that going around.

LOL there sure is!

Most of us can carry anything "effectively". The important question is one of how we will react at that instant that counts, and how quickly we will draw, present, and fire.

Exactly, which is why it doesn't matter how long you've "been carrying." A post that said hey folks, practice and practice drawing your carry firearm(s) would have been extremely more informative and helpful.

At all times? That might end up in the category of famous last words.

As much as saying you can only carry one type of firearm and that will make you more effective at drawing and firing accurately and correctly in a defense scenario, I'll give you that.