Carbine for Home Defense - Bad idea?

[Dave3006]

I hear alot about using a carbine for home defense. However, I really wonder if this would be a good idea? It seems to me that the most important characteristic of a home defense weapon would be to QUICKLY stop your attacker. Distances will be so close that even the slightest delay could cost you your life. If they have a knife or a gun, even a couple seconds is enough for them to kill you before they die. A rifle would be better than a handgun. However, it seems a shotgun would be the fastest for putting a man down.
Any comments? I would appreciate any input. This is just my opinion and I am not an expert.

 

[mcshot]

I think carbines are a great idea and I just picked up a Marlin Camp 9 carbine which accepts mags from my S&W 5904. I even have some real high capacity mags (20+) that should really perforate perps. Only problem to date is that it spits brass over a half acre which would not be a prob indoors eh.

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"Keep shootin till they quit floppin"
The Wife 2/2000

 

[PreserveFreedom]

I see no problem at all, although a handgun is what I keep loaded by the bed. If my Mini 14 was handy, I wouldn't hesitate to use it for home defense.

 

[dbrowne1]

A .223 carbine is an excellent home defense gun, my personal choice if quarters are not too close (handgun is better for closer spaces). If you're going to get a carbine, I wouldn't bother with pistol calibers, as their performance doesn't really exceed a handgun and they will penetrate MORE wall material than a .223. .223 wound ballistics are devastating, it will be much more effective if your assailant is wearing body armor, and you'll have a gun with a much greater effective range should that be necessary.

 

[Southla1]

Dave if a carbine was all that one owned it would be ok I guess. In my humble opinion it does not have enough "knock down" power and more importantly the penetration is too much. I kind of like the old "alley sweeper" 12 guage shotgun. Believe me at indoor ranges a load of even #6 shot will flat put a felons private part in the dirt.....for good! If he is wearing body armor just the shock of it will in all likely hood at that range stun him enough or possibly even knock him down where a few well placed shots either above or from under the body armor will end his felonious days for good, plus having the advantage of not over penetrating in a home. It is also said that a 12 gauge slug has enough knock down energy at close range to kill someone wearing body armor even though it will not penetrate it. I do not know this for a fact but I feel it to be true. I do remember that in the confrontation between the LAPD and the "bad guys" with the AK's and the body armor a few years back, the LAPD had to run to a gun shop to acquire 12 guage slugs which ended the confrontation in favor of the 'good guys". Give me a 12 guage in either pump or auto and I will be satisfied.

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Carlyle Hebert

 

[Jay Baker]

SouthLA, just a minor correction here. In the North Hollywood Bank of America shootout, the LAPD cops did not go to a gun shop for rifled slugs, a sgt went to B&B Gun Sales in North Hollywood, and got several Bushmaster .223s and some loaded magazines. These rifles were loaned to the sgt by Bob Kahn, the owner of B&B. The rifles WERE NOT fired in the shootout, as by the time the sgt got back to the scene, the fight was over.

Later, after the rifles were returned, unfired to B&B-- they were then deemed, "used",-- Bob auctioned them off and the proceeds were donated to an LAPD charity. (Widows and Orphans Fund, I think???)

I've known Bob Kahn (and his brother, Barry)for many years and have bought quite a few guns from B&B.

That shootout took place about two miles from my home in Studio City. That morning, I could stand out in my front yard and hear the shooting. Hadn't heard anything like that since I was in the army.

FWIW. J.B.

 

[PigPen]

A 12 ga. or AR15 with .223 are both great for incapacitating bad guys. The argument over which is more favorable will never end because they are both quite excellent and one scenario favors one, while the next scenario favors the other. The shooter's experience and ability is also a factor.

OTOH, neither of them fit in the bed side table drawer or under your pillow .

 

[dbrowne1]

Southla-

A .223 carbine loaded with proper ammo and with at least a 14" barrel has DEVASTATING wound ballistics that will be totally (yes, totally) unaffected by soft armor. See:
http://www.fen.baynet.de/norbert.arnoldi/army/wound.html

.223 penetrates less wall material than all 9mm and above pistols and some shotgun rounds, and retains less wounding ability after doing so (a double edged sword). See the Tech info section at:
http://www.olyarms.com/usa.html

Remember that as defensive shooters, we're not interested in "knock down" power, as such a thing does not exist in shoulder arms. If it did, the gun would knock the shooter down too. We're interested in wounding ability as a means of incapacitation.
No buckshot, and certainly not #6, will have any kind of reliable effect on someone wearing soft armor. Think about it. The pellets are ballistically weaker than pistol rounds which the vest is designed to stop. #1 is probably the best all around choice, as it penetrates 12" of gelatin and has a larger wound profile than OO buck. I'm a little skeptical about slugs doing as much blunt trauma as people say vs. soft armor since the human body is so flexible and durable, so I'd rather have a rifle bullet that recoils less and goes through it.
For a single close range unarmored shot, a shotgun probably has a significant advantage in terms of wound ballistics, but I still prefer an AR carbine over a shotgun for the above reasons, plus it's a little more compact, reloads faster and has higher capacity, greater effecive range, cheaper ammo, and less recoil. Plus it looks cool

 

[Gary H]

I've lived in California for many years and recently realized that my all black Carbon 15 Type 20 carbine with Hakko red-dot sight and tactical light is perfect for home defense, but horrible for the California court system. I've seen the reports regarding limited .223 penetration and my Carbon 15 is very light. It points very quickly and works flawlessly and is devastating when hitting the target. Unfortunately, the prosecutor would have a field day! In this state, the horror takes place whenever you do the right thing.

 

[Southla1]

I think the point that many forget when talking about home defense is that 99.9% of the encounters will take place at less than 20 feet. At that range a 12 guage with ANYTHING in it may not kill an intruder wearing body armor (possibly a slug may) but it will certainly stun and slow them up for a second or two. A 223 may penetrate the armor and do fatal damage to internal organs but will it do it quick enough to stop them from harming you? a 50/50 prospect at best. Use the 12 guage, and in the second or 2 that it stuns/shocks/slows down the intruder finish him off. I can promise that if you smack someone full force at 3 or 4 yards with a 12 he will for a few seconds anyway be out of action. Use those few seconds wisely. Double tap. I had a 190 pound whitetail buck (7 pointer) try to sneak behind me one day and I nailed him at about 10 yards with a 1 ounce slug in my Rem 1100. Took him through the front shoulders and it rolled him over twice and all he did after that was kick for a few seconds. I have hit em in the same place with the 30-06, 7MM Rem Mag and the 25-06 and never did they knock em down....... the old 12 guage did.

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Carlyle Hebert

 

[Dave3006]

SouthLa1 more clearly described the key point of my initial post. The overwhelming attribute of a home defensive weapon is the ability to QUICKLY put someone down. Chances are very high with a handgun or carbine, even if you shot him first, he will live long enough to shoot you back. Even if he takes only 1 second to die - he can kill you too! A handgun or a carbine are good weapons. However, indoors at room distance, a shotgun seems to hold the advantage.

Just for kicks, with my 7 year old, we play a game where one of us hides in the house and the other searches for the bad guy. Always we fire at each other simultaneously within a second or less. Of course, the advantage is to the one who ambushes. However, most of the time we would both be dead. I have taken a multitude of classes teaching room clearing skills and this point is never strongly emphasized enough in my opinion.

Dave

 

[Calif Hunter]

I haven't heard of any burglars with body armour! I'm not saying there haven't been any, just that I haven't heard of any. I think that any shotgun, preferably with a shorter barrel for handiness in confined spaces and faster spread of the shot pattern, is the best for home defense. Buckshot or slugs are "overkill", in my opinion, as they will penetrate too many walls and I have children in the other bedrooms. I use #2, #4 or BB's. Next to a shotgun would be either a carbine in .223 with "varmint" class bullets or a handgun with very light hollowpoints. I keep Glasers in my .38 Special handgun, alternated with 125 gr. hollwpoints every other round. Also being in California, I agree that courts would frown upon the use of an "assault" rifle,, possibly turning the whole situation around and portraying me as the crazy person just lying in wait for the poor, misguided young man who broke into my home. Just my opinions.

 

[dbrowne1]

Ok, lots to cover here.

First, the issue of the prosecutor. The type of gun you use will be a secondary issue, if one at all, if you are involved in a justifiable shooting. What is at issue is whether or not the use of deadly force is justified. It may not even come up, and if it does, I can clearly articulate (as I did in my previous post) why I used the AR, and I can name at least a half-dozen court certified experts who will back me up. This is my opinion and also that of several gun-owning defense attorneys I have talked to, and this is in MA.
As far as the "knock down" and "stun" issue, the deer's response is anecdotal with too many other variables, and does not indicate that the slug made the deer roll over. Do the physics. 1 oz slug makes a 190lb deer do a somersault? Come on... It was an involuntary nervous reaction to being shot...the deer's muscles moved him, not the slug.

Dave3006-

I agree 100% with your statements about house clearing...I would never want to do it with any type of gun. Against a single unarmored assailant with no downrange issues, a shotgun has no equal. However, a .223 with proper ammo (i.e. M193, M855, or 64 grain PowerPoints for example) will usually drop someone like a sack of potatoes with one COM shot. People are misled by the tiny FMJ bullet...it does a TON of damage due to it's large temporary cavity and fragmentation. There is no instant stop with any gun, save a CNS hit. Armed felons have taken more than one solid hit from a 12 GA and continued on their way.

Calif Hunter-

Do not use Glasers and do not use light varmint bullets in your .223. They create superficial wounds which do not penetrate deeply enough to reach vital structures to cause incapacitation. If you're worried about wall penetration but still want a powerful home defense gun, use a .223 with a load that has proven wound ballistics. The problem with using loads like #6 shot and glasers is that you've chosen a load based on the secondary consideration of wall penetration and negated their primary purpose as defesive weapons. The .223 is the best of both worlds. The evidence is there in the links I provided. Also look at http://www.firearmstactical.com

 

[Calif Hunter]

I would think that a .223 Speer TNT 52 gr. hollowpoint at a distance of from 3 feet to 25 feet would perform adequately and dramatically, even on someone wearing a leather jacket. As far as Glasers go, that is why I alternate every other round. Glasers have penetrated the chest on 250-lb wild pigs and killed them for me very quickly at 25 yards or less, so they should work on people. I never said #6 shot...I said #2, #4 or BB's. Again, at "within my house" ranges, they ought to do the job. If the person is wearing body armor, then my second shot would be a head shot...best accomplished with a short-barreled, open choked shotgun at the ranges we're talking about and under stress. At longer ranges, other choices may be more appropriate. I'd be hard-pressed to explain why I was in imminent, physical danger from someone 50 yards away, though.

 

[Erik]

I a carbine a bad idea? Maybe, maybe not.

A shotgun, as a general rule, is always a good idea.

 

[dbrowne1]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Calif Hunter:
I would think that a .223 Speer TNT 52 gr. hollowpoint at a distance of from 3 feet to 25 feet would perform adequately and dramatically, even on someone wearing a leather jacket. As far as Glasers go, that is why I alternate every other round. Glasers have penetrated the chest on 250-lb wild pigs and killed them for me very quickly at 25 yards or less, so they should work on people. I never said #6 shot...I said #2, #4 or BB's. Again, at "within my house" ranges, they ought to do the job. If the person is wearing body armor, then my second shot would be a head shot...best accomplished with a short-barreled, open choked shotgun at the ranges we're talking about and under stress. At longer ranges, other choices may be more appropriate. I'd be hard-pressed to explain why I was in imminent, physical danger from someone 50 yards away, though.[/quote]

I haven't seen any data on the 52 gr. Speer TNT. What does its wound profile look like? How deeply does it penetrate? I'm a little skeptical of .223 hollowpoints behaing anything like a pistol HP, because the cavity is so small. Did you function test the glasers in your gun, or is it a revolver?
Comparing pig hunting (or deer hunting) to self-defense isn't really valid. The reason that the IWBA and FBI specify 12" minimum penetration isn't because most people are 12" thick front to back, it's because arms and shoulders can get in the way, and the deer isn't trying to kill you and probably isn't moving much. Stand in front of a mirror and assume your prefered defensive handgun stance...a lot of arm is covering your COM, huh? Now pretend the guy in the mirror is a home invader aiming a gun at you. Think a glaser or #4 shot will make it to his vitals? I don't.
If you live on a farm or own a lot of land, there are plenty of scenarios where you would need 50 yds.+ of effective range and would be justified.
I'm not trying to be argumentative here or drag this out, but there's a lot of gun magazine garbage information out there about wound ballistics.

 

[Oleg Volk]

I consider an M1 carbine to be a good newbie weapon: easy to use, doesn't kick or thunder too much (less flinch) and is easy to aim accurately. It isn't even a 20ga level in damage but it would not scare people from practicing.

My own preference for in-house is a 7.62x39 Mak90 with a 30-round stick. It is not a one-shot stopper but the rules don't require me to stop at one shot. The cartridge isn't too loud (compared to .223/30-06) and the carbine is reliable.

I can also see the argument for a Camp carbine in .45 over a 1911: longer barrel means less muzzle flash, higher velocity and easier aiming.

The counterargument is that a long arm generally needs two hands for proper operation...

 

[Bogie]

Let's see - I'd grab an old Stevens 12 gauge double with exposed hammers and cut to legal length barrels first - I keep that sucker loaded with AA Featherweight loads - Won't penetrate walls, but sure wouldn't want to be in front of it...

Then, in the closet, next to a pair of 18.5" barreled Mossberg 500s, is the .357 carbine, loaded with 125 grain gold dots over a max charge of W296. If the lead don't hit 'em, the fireball will fry 'em...

Should things become intensely hairy, there's always the AR or the AK...

 

[Southla1]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dbrowne1:
Do the physics. 1 oz slug makes a 190lb deer do a somersault? Come on... It was an involuntary nervous reaction to being shot...the deer's muscles moved him, not the slug.[/quote]

I agree that muscle twitch may have been involved in the second rollover but not totally responsible for the first roll. Do some thinking and expirmenting. Take some object that a 12 guage slug will not penetrate such as a steel plate or a piece of plywood or something with a armored vest on it. Back off 10 yards or so and pop a 1 oz 12 guageslug into it and watch it fly. I know a human will not fly that far because of greater body mass. In fact the slug would be less likely to make a person be driven backwards if he was wearing no armor. The energy would be used penetrating the target instead of knocking it back. If he has a vest on some of the energy will be used in breaking the fibers of kevlar and distorting the vest and slug, but if it does not penetrate where does the rest of the FP's of energy go? I will tell you where it goes in driving the person back, which I agree will not likely happen if no armor is worn. All you need to do is to stun him for a second or two. As to the deer the slug took him on the large bones on the shoulder and did not exit. All the energy was expended in/on the deer. I shot a 90 pound little doe one time standing broadside at 15 yards with the same load and she never flinched just looked at me for a few seconds then ran off and died about 70 yards away. The slug slipped betwen the ribs on the way in, destroyed both lungs and the top of the heart and slipped out between to ribs on the way out. In this case very little energy was expended in the target. On a man if he is wearing no armor and the slug misses the breastbone or a rib on the way in and the spine on the way out the same thing may happen, not likely but it may. Sure a .223 will do the job too, but I personaly have seen people in lil black shirts take 1 or 2 55 grain FMJ's in the X ring and run off. Sure they were probably dead but just did not know it yet. Remember one thing it matters not at 5 yards weather you pop someone with #6 or 00 or a slug the energy is all in one spot, a .223 may do the same but it will certainly penetrate much more than the #6 shot.

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Carlyle Hebert

 

[Oleg Volk]

If the slug hit an end of some object, that object might start rotating around its hinge point...that would take less KE than *moving* the thing, no?