Calling all .223 brass experts!

[jetinteriorguy]

So I annealed somewhere over a thousand LC cases earlier and am running them through my tumbler for a final cleaning. My plan is to first choose the cases that are dent free, then all the same length, then by weight. My question is how close in weight should they be? I was thinking I'd just weigh up a hundred or so, get their average weight and then choose cases that are within a certain range both over and under that average, I just don't know how much over and under the average I should allow.

 

[hounddawg]

Just my opinion, but when I went down the weighing cases and bullets route and found it a gigantic PITA and a total waste of time. It may be worthwhile if you are shooting high end benchrest and trying to shave a hundredth of an inch off your group with your $15K custom rig at the World Cup but for us mere mortals I believe it is nothing more than a timesink.

I have not put a case on a scale in 18 months and consistently get velocity standard deviations in the low to mid single digits. But then I just a wannabe F class and PR shooter.

1000 cases ....ouch hope you had a automated annealing machine

edit I would also recommend ditching the PMC, when the primer pockets get loose after a few reloads they will leak gas past and etch your bolt. Guess How I know that

 

[Metal god]

I agree ^

I'd suggest sorting by headstamp and see if that alone allows you to accomplish your goals .

 

[Tsquared]

I agree ^

I'd suggest sorting by headstamp and see if that alone allows you to accomplish your goals .

I do this for every caliber I reload.

 

[Unclenick]

Jetinterior guy,

As explained earlier, sorting by weight really doesn't do a great job of predicting capacity unless the brass is all from the same lot from the same maker. You really want to sort by headstamp first. Then weigh them and you will find each tooling set that contributed to the lot will have produced a different bell curve peak. Just look for several weights that have higher numbers of cases in them than the others. 'there may be four to six. Each one of those weights should be a good candidate for keeping together for match loads. You will probably find a few outliers this way, too. two or three that are significantly lighter or heavier than the rest. Put the 15 lightest and the 15 heaviest together and load them and shoot a group with them and chronograph them. This gives you the worst case results for letting the brass be mixed up. Take the thirty most similar and repeat the exercise. If you can tell a difference you'll know how much the weighing is getting you.

The value weighing has is often swamped out by charge weight and bulk variation. It tends to be less important than eliminating runout and getting primers correctly seated and find the best bullet seating depth for your rifle. I say "tends" because every time you make a rule like this, someone whose gun's favorite load is an exception turns up. So, never say never, but don't have high expectations for making a big difference until you can prove it does.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

Thanks guys, all good food for thought. I am just a recreational target shooter, and am trying to produce good quality consistently accurate ammo. I do most of my shooting at an indoor 100 yd range with occasional trips down to Quantico. So far I've gone out to 300 yds where I have no trouble busting clays with either my AR15 or my Savage 12FV in 6.5 Creed. But I'm trying to get ready to hit the 1000 yd range, aiming for 600 yds or more with the AR, and out to a thousand with the Savage.

 

[hounddawg]

the most important thing in reloading for long range accuracy is getting consistent velocities. 25 or 50 FPS variations can make the difference between a X and a 9 or a 9 and a 8 when you get to 600 and up.

Getting low standard deviations requires a lot of experimentation. The right bullet seated to the right depth using the right powder at the right charge. Be prepared to spend a lot of money and time at the range and reloading bench.

Wind and mirage reading skills are extremely important. If you have a accurate .22 rimfire start doing 50 rounds each outdoor range session at 200 yards.

on load development method I use Erik Cortina's method as a template

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/long-range-load-development-at-100-yards.3814361/

I modified it a bit for example I do a rough seating depth test first at .075, .050,.025, and 0.0 off lands using a powder load recommended by the bullet manufacturer before going to step 4 . I will fine tune the seating depth in step 8 and may or may not do a primer test as a final step depending on the SD's and groups I end up with

some other worthwhile links for long range

http://southtexasshooting.org/multimedia/text/mirage.html


http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/06/09/how-much-does-it-matter-overall-summary/

good luck

 

[jetinteriorguy]

I’m pretty much on the same page for what I strive for in handloading. I’ve done pretty well with my Savage and have a couple loads with relatively good SD’s, one is 10 and the other is 13. This is shooting Nosler 140gn RDF’s using RE16 that group consistently at 3/4 MOA or less at 300yds, and Hornady 140gn ELD-M using H4350 at 1/2 MOA or less at 100 yds. I haven’t shot more than 40 rounds of the ELD-M’s and haven’t been over 100 yds yet but feeling pretty good so far.

 

[hounddawg]

I am a fellow Savage shooter, I love tuning mine to where they shoot with the high dollar guns. A pair of .260's and a .223

I did not have much luck with the 140 RDF's but then I never really put a lot of effort into finding a load for them because it was right before I changed barrel out. The Custom Competitions was another story. The 140 CC's shot fantastic in the older barrel.

This week I am starting a load workup on the 123 CC's just to see how they shoot. I went to a 30 inch barrel and have to rework all of my loads so I figured I would start fresh with a new bullet. I still have most of the box of those RDF's and I may load 20 or 30 rounds at various depths to see how they like this barrel

I have not tried any of the ELDM's. They are next on the list if the 123 CC's won't group or give me consistent velocities.

I have found this to be the most fascinating hobby I ever attempted, I hope you get as much enjoyment from it as I have

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...body die and neck sizing..." You cannot neck size only brass that was fired out of another rifle. You must FL resize. Small Base dies are FL dies that resize a bit more than a regular FL die. It's a one or the other thing not both.
The only head stamp I'd separate is the LC. The rest of it is standard commercial SAAMI spec .223. The LC stuff might have crimped primers. A time consuming but easy one time only thing to fix.
"...anneal it which I do every firing for consistency..." Absolutely and totally 100% unnecessary. There's no need to anneal any of it. Won't hurt anything if you do though, but annealing is an 'as required only' thing. It is not and never will be an every time thing.
You need to be checking the lengths too. Use your calipres as a case length gauge, set at the max case length given in your manual, then trim only the cases over the max.

 

[hounddawg]

..body die and neck sizing..." You cannot neck size only brass that was fired out of another rifle

the body die takes the place of a FL die, this just allows you to do the neck sizing separate with a neck only die


https://www.sinclairintl.com/guntech/the-way-of-the-sizing-die/detail.htm?lid=16039

 

[jetinteriorguy]

Right now all of this brass is full length resized since it was picked up as range brass. I do plan on making sure all the ones I pick are the same length, and I plan on running them through the Lee Collet neck sizer.

 

[F. Guffey]

Same length deom where to where?

Right now all of this brass is full length resized since it was picked up as range brass. I do plan on making sure all the ones I pick are the same length, and I plan on running them through the Lee Collet neck sizer.

Same length? I ask because I do not assume your are measuring from the same place to the same place I measure. My cases do not have head space (I understand that makes no sense to anyone but me) so I measure from the datum/shoulder to the case head. It is just a habit but I measure before and again after meaning I measure the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head before sizing and again after sizing.

After that it gets really complicated because when I finish sizing the case and I keep up with all of the lengths. I find the case can be shorter from the end of the neck to the case head and longer from the datum/shoulder of the case to the case head After sizing. I have cases that shorten .045" from the end of the neck to the case head after forming, sizing and firing.

F. Guffey

 

[jetinteriorguy]

I think I understand what your saying and I hadn't considered doing it like that. So first measure from the base to the datum line, then measure the OAL and pick those that match the closest. This would mean that the actual length of the neck should be pretty close on all the cases that match giving more uniform neck tension on the bullet. At least this is how I interpret what your saying, right? And of course cases don't have head space, chambers do.

 

[hounddawg]

if you really want to do that measurement thing of Guffy's right wait till the full of the moon and burn the blood of a freshly killed one eyed newt over the cases while chanting the lyrics from Hey Hey We're the Monkeys backwards

Seriously I tried it that way and achieved .000001 smaller groups

would these eyes lie

please do not try this at home, only members of Rocky's secret club have been trained to do this safely and the one eyed newt is on the endangered species list

 

[jetinteriorguy]

I'm allergic to one eyed newts, so I guess that leaves that out.

 

[Rimfire5]

jetinteriorguy,

Since you shoot at 100 yards indoors I would assume you shoot at the Elite range near Gainesville.
I also presume you have a 26 inch barrel on you Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor that is made especially for Cabela's.

I have two Savages in 6.5mm Creedmoor, one is a 10T-SR, also made especially for Cabela's, and the other is a 12 LRP (long range precision) with the precision trigger.
Since you have a 26 inch barrel 6.5 CM let me share some notes on the Savage 12 LRP 6.5mm Creedmoor 26 inch barrel.

I have had great results with the Hornady 140 gr #26331 ELD-M and 147 gr #26333 ELD-M bullets as well as with 142 gr Sierra Match Kings #1742 bullets. They have the lowest group averages of all the bullets I have tried.
I have also gotten very good results with Berger 140 gr bullets in the Match #26401, Long Range #26409 and Hybrid #26424 variants.
The 130 gr Sierra Tipped Match King #7430 bullets also shoot accurately.


IMR4350 powder works well but I get slightly better accuracy with IMR 4451 Enduron powder. Of the top powder-bullet combinations with those bullets, IMR4451 holds the best 4 positions and 5 of the 6 top averages. IMR4350 has 5 of the top 10. Three other powders populate most of the remaining 26 combinations.

I have eliminated much of my concern about brass by using only Lapua brass with small rifle primers for my 6.5 CMs and have eliminated one source of variation. I also find that the small primers in the Lapua brass shoot for better accuracy than the large primer Norma or Hornady brass that I used when I first started shooting the 6.5 CMs.
I have also found that the small primer pockets wear more slowly. I use CCI 400 or CCI BR-4 primers for the 6.5 CMs.
Lapua costs around $112 per 100 but I get at least twice the reloads of any of the other brass before the primer pockets begin to get too loose for me to be comfortable with reloading them.
I just retired 100 Lapua brass after 25 reloads and replaced them with new Lapua cases. It turns out that the high priced Lapua is actually cheaper in the long run.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

Yup, love Elite Shooting Sports. All good info, I have had good results with RDF’s and RE16, and great results with ELD-M’s and H4350. Your right on the rifle. I’ll PM you later, on vacation now and can communicate later when I get to OBX.

 

[F. Guffey]

I just retired 100 Lapua brass after 25 reloads and replaced them with new Lapua cases. It turns out that the high priced Lapua is actually cheaper in the long run

I am sure I have a few Lapua cases, I know I have Norma and other high dollar cases. We had a member that claimed he shot common, ordinary everyday cases 45 times with full loads without suffering any serious after effects. I asked him how much trimming was required to get to 45 firing. I did not get an answer because he never weighed the cases and; as you should suspect we never became friends.

Again: I was at a gun show when an unhappy customer/gunowner walked up to the table and accused a builder of his rifle he built/screwed up the chamber. The builder had no choice but to explain to his unhappy customer he had to bring the rifle to his shop to be checked. The unhappy customer handed the builder a cases for examination (I did not get involved). After the new owner was finished and moved down the line I asked to see the case. I asked him if the case he handed me was the only case he owned and I asked him if the was loading and reloading and handloading that case over and over and over etc. etc.. I told him his case was so thin it would not stand up straight and he was lucky the case did not come apart in the die when he lowered the ram. I offered to form 300 cases for his rifle at no cost in an effort to allow him to distribute the ware and tare of being fired among many cases instead of one. He refused my offer.

It was at about this time the builder came down to check the case; he instructed his customer to take the case to a fair and objective smith that was across the building. He instructed the owner not to tell him who built the rifle and do not tell him what I said about his fired case.

Time past and then the owner of the rifle returned; he was not happy with the fair and objective smith because he was also a smith of a few words. When the customer handed him the case the smith pulled the case apart and measured the thickness of the case body. The smith said .002" is a good thickness for paper but too thin for a case body. He then asked the owner of the rifle if that was the only case he had because it looked like the case had been fired over and over and over again.

I checked back with my North Texas friend to find if the unhappy gun owner made it back to his shop, he said if he did I do not remember.

F. Guffey