C&R license investigation

[johnwilliamson062]

Federal law requires ATF to develop the procedures, forms and regulations as required by the GCA, NFA, etc

Exactly. ATFE develops these policies, procedures, and forms. Federal law is not that detailed. The crux of your argument rests on many agents working out of many offices in many states all acting in the same way as a matter of coincidence instead of because they are receiving directives from agency leadership. You can call it procedures instead of policies if you like. It is ridiculous. Federal law doesn't give a time-frame in which one must report to the local ATFE office. They could demand you drive there immediately. They don't.
ATFE could change their policy/procedure to a stricter following of federal law. They might be able to reject applications in which the hours are left blank. It doesn't change the fact that they are not currently.

I don't think you have an argument. There is nothing in it for me to convince you. You are an anonymous person on the internet. I feel content in my position as presented to any third party who reads this thread.

 

[dogtown tom]

johnwilliamson062

Quote:
Federal law requires ATF to develop the procedures, forms and regulations as required by the GCA, NFA, etc

Exactly. ATFE develops these policies, procedures, and forms. Federal law is not that detailed.

Yet you believe "I bet their policy manuals are several NYC phone books."?

The crux of your argument rests on many agents working out of many offices in many states all acting in the same way as a matter of coincidence instead of because they are receiving directives from agency leadership.

I didn't say anything of the sort. You keep posting nonsense, I refute with what the actual regulations are, and then you rebut with a straw man argument.

ATF has regulations and Federal law to follow. If an individual IOI doesn't follow those regulations that's a problem his supervisor needs to address. But it doesn't change what the regulation actually says does it?

You can call it procedures instead of policies if you like. It is ridiculous.

No sir, what is ridiculous is you claiming "rules" that do not exist.

Federal law doesn't give a time-frame in which one must report to the local ATFE office. They could demand you drive there immediately. They don't.

And again, I didn't say that. I posted the freaking regulation that you either didn't read or have chosen to create an alternate reality of what it means.
But the requirement remains that a licensee make his records available for inspection to ATF on request.

ATFE could change their policy/procedure to a stricter following of federal law. They might be able to reject applications in which the hours are left blank. It doesn't change the fact that they are not currently.

How the heck do you know they don't?
How often do you talk to ATF?
Have you ever met an ATF IOI in person?
Is your entire knowledge of ATF licensing based on gossip?

Since you referred to them as an "agent" above I don't think you have any clue as to what I mean by "IOI".......because they sure as heck aren't an agent.

I don't think you have an argument. There is nothing in it for me to convince you.

It's not really an argument when you know I'm correct, and I know you aren't.
You posted false information and got caught. It hurts, but you'll survive to post nonsense again I'm sure.

You are an anonymous person on the internet. I feel content in my position as presented to any third party who reads this thread.

<-----Tom Hart, Plano, TX who has been an 01FFL for over nine years and an 03FFL for twelve years before that.

Any third party who reads this thread hopefully has the reading comprehension to see that while you may be content, you are most certainly ignorant of Federal firearms law.

 

[noelf2]

ALL applicants must answer Que 12 on the Application for a Federal Firearms License:https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/fo...31016/download
Note Question 12:
12. Hours of Operation and/or Availability of Business/Activity (please provide at least one hour in which you can be contacted by ATF personnel)
That question applies to every applicant. "Collecting" is an "activity" is it not?

On my last renewal, I put N/A for hours and I got my renewal without a hitch. Right or wrong, I still got it. YMMV

 

[johnwilliamson062]

How the heck do you know they don't?

Bill of Rights has ten amendments. Some people think they are randomly ordered. I think they are in order of perceived importance. One comes before two. I belong to several offline firearms collectors organizations with some form of regular meetings and communication. I am a member at several online collectors forums. None require one to own a 03 to join, but it is common among the tens of thousands of members. There are a fair number in this forum. Quite a few C&Rs between all of them and not a peep about ATFE doing anything like showing up to someones house and demanding to be shown the C&R log immediately or having the person immediately go to the local ATFE office with the books. Stories like that tend to have legs in the firearm community.

Actually, I have spoken to an ATFE officer on this issue. Right in the middle of one of my license periods I needed to leave the US on short notice, was not certain what my communication capabilities would be, would not be able to return to US within any sort of reasonable time-frame(such as the snowbird can if necessary), etc. I was able to have a very cordial conversation with a very professional employee of the ATFE and work out what was necessary. I have no idea if they were an agent or not. I referred to them as agent and they did not correct me. For myself and most 03 FFLs the distinction is entirely irrelevant and is simply used to convey respect for their position. I will note for any considering a 03 FFL, I offered to send my log and was told they had no interest and to dispose of it. The experience significantly changed my feelings towards ATFE. The 'Agent' I spoke with could not have been more supportive or helpful.

If I was applying for a C&R tomorrow I would mark the hours box "N/A" and not think twice about it.

 

[dogtown tom]

johnwilliamson062 .....I belong to several offline firearms collectors organizations with some form of regular meetings and communication. I am a member at several online collectors forums. None require one to own a 03 to join, but it is common among the tens of thousands of members. There are a fair number in this forum. Quite a few C&Rs between all of them and not a peep about ATFE doing anything like showing up to someones house and demanding to be shown the C&R log immediately or having the person immediately go to the local ATFE office with the books.

And where sir, did I say ATF actually did this to C&RFFL's? NO WHERE. Stop it. I'll repeat it again.........ATF REGULATIONS ALLOW THEM TO DO THAT. Whether an ATF IOI does it that way is entirely within his discretion. AND AGAIN, AS I POSTED ABOVE: "Refusal to allow inspection of your records is grounds for revocation of a collectors 03FFL. The collector can either allow ATF entry into their premises or meet at the local ATF office."
See anything about ATF "....demanding to be shown the C&R log immediately or having the person immediately go to the local ATFE office with the books"?
No, you don't.

What is stated in Federal law and ATF regulations is clear. (unless you don't bother reading it). Whether a ATF IOI makes it a practice to call ahead is only that......a practice and not at all prohibited by any ATF regulation.

Again, your assertion that "...ATFE must give a minimum of 24 hours notice before requiring inspection" is 100% horsehockey, absolutely false and without any shred of truth whatsoever. You claimed it a "rule" yet cannot post a source or citation.

What IS TRUE is the citations to ATF regulations that I posted. You have only posted gossip, rumor and unfounded dreams.

You are like the guy who says "police officers will never write you a speeding ticket for driving 5mph over the posted limit". While that may be his experience it most certainly isn't the law. The likelihood of getting pulled over driving 80mph in a 75mph zone is far different than driving 23mph in a school zone posted 20mph when kids are walking home from school. And it may be the same officer exercising his discretion.

Stories like that tend to have legs in the firearm community.

You are absolutely right. "Stories" in the Law & Civil Rights subforum especially......which is why you should not post your imaginary rules where it will mislead others as to the actual regulations. That is the worst kind of story.