C&B Revolver markings??

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Oquirrh

New member
I'm carefully shopping for my next cap & ball. (Yes, I've got the fever.)

I'm bewildered by the variety of brands. Besides the differences in old and new Uberti and Pietta, and discontinued makers, they seem to be offered under different importer and store brands. I've come across Hawes, Heritage, Euroarms, Cabela, etc.

Case in point, I'm dealing long-distance on a second-hand 1860 Colt Army. About all I can tell from the photo is that it's got a case-hardened steel frame and is in excellent shape and hasn't been antiqued. The seller says it has NO markings on it except "Made in Italy." I told him there has to be some sort of symbol/mark indicating manufacturer. He asks me where to look.

So where do you find the definitive indication of manufacturer? Specifically, if it's a Uberti or Pietta, how would it be marked?

The info I've gleaned, so far, is roughly this: Octagon barrel mark with a U in it for Uberti, dgg for Armi San Paolo/Euroarms., a stylized cylinder face for Pietta or an FAP inside a diamond.

You guys have been great for guidance, thanks in advance.
 
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Fingers McGee

New member
Case in point, I'm dealing long-distance on a second-hand 1860 Colt Army. About all I can tell from the photo is that it's got a case-hardened steel frame and is in excellent shape and hasn't been antiqued. The seller says it has NO markings on it except "Made in Italy." I told him there has to be some sort of symbol/mark indicating manufacturer. He asks me where to look.
Click to expand...

Some made in the 70s and early 80s are hard to identify. They had very few identifying markings. Some markings were on the bottom of the frame obscured by or under the trigger guard. Some markings are on the underside of the barrel near the pivot point for the loading lever. Some Armi San Marcos only had an ASM or SM stamped on the barrel.

There is going to be a book published (soon I hope) from the Replica Percussion Revolver Collectors Association (http://rprca.tripod.com/)that will help in identifying reproductions. Jim Davis, the fella publishing the book, has been working on it for a number of years. Until then, the link Hawg Haggen gave you will be of great help.
 
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Oquirrh

New member
thanks

Read the article closely. So I guess a pistol marked Hawes or Heritage should have a real manufaxcturer's mark somewhere, too?
 
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mykeal

New member
'No markings except Made in Italy' is very suspicious. If it was in fact made in Italy then it must have the two Italian proof house stamps on it; they are generally on the barrel, frame and cylinder. If those marks are not present the gun has been altered.

Many importers added (and still do add) their own names to imported Italian made replicas. Navy Arms is the most obvious example. Heritage or Hawes marked guns, or any guns marked by the importer, would still have the original manufacturer's marks and proof house marks present somewhere.

They may be well hidden on guns made to order for a US distributor that imprints his own name. A favorite hiding place is under the loading lever near the breech end of the barrel. They also used the frame just in front of the trigger guard. There are also cases of marks under the grips, although that was not commonly done.

However, the point is that they are there, or the gun has been altered. In any case, it is wise (in fact mandatory, in my case) to insist on the right to return the gun for a full refund after a reasonable inspection period if you are buying it without having had the chance to handle it first.
 
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Fingers McGee

New member
Hawes Firearms Company was a Los Angeles, CA importer that sold pistols & revolvers that were made in West Germany by J.P. Sauer & Sons in the 1960-1980 time frame. Here's a link to an old catalog. http://www.cornellpubs.com/Templates2/Hawes 1969.htm

Heritage Arms. 22s are made in the USA (Opa Laka, FL), and their big bore revolvers are assembled in the US from Pietta made castings. http://www.heritagemfg.com/site/index.cfm. In each instance, Heritage is the manufacturer.
 
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bprevolver

New member
Heritage markings on percussion revolvers

Oquirrh, you mentioned that you have seen a Heritage marking on a revolver. What model was it and do you remember what the markings were and where on gun. This is an importer that I have not been able to verify if they marked their guns. Check out the RPRCA Web Site at:

http://rprca.tripod.com

There are other marks that I have not yet found. This is for the book on replica percussion revolvers that has been in the works now for 15yrs. What I thought would be a quick and easy collector's guide has turned into an encylopedia. There is so much information that is is now going to have to be published in three volumes. The first volume, dealing with the different models and variations of replicas that have been produced, is now at 400pages. The second volume will deal with the many manufacurers and importers who marked their guns and what those markings were. Also, what models of original percussion revolvers they manufactured or imported. The third volume will deal with the many commemorative issues that have been produced on percussion revolvers.

If anyone has seen any of the markings listed on the Web Site, please share this.
 
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Oquirrh

New member
it was at a gun shop

i'll take another look if it's still there. I think it was a brass framed Navy in .36. But I've seen so many revolvers lately -- they run together. In any case, I'll keep my eye peeled for Heritage models and jot down the markings.
 
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bprevolver

New member
DART marked revolvers

This posting is for Shotgun Willie.

The PR is a manufacturer's logo of unknown origin. I have been searching for this for 15yrs with no luck. I am sure that when it finally pops up it will have been in front of me all along, but not yet. The DART is a distributor who marked their guns. They were part of the Excam, Inc. that imported other modern firearms as well.

In their black powder line they sold brass frame 1851 Navy in .44cal & .36cal. Engraved, Baby Dragoon in 4" & 6" barrels, Engraved Baby Dragoon, Steel Case Hardened Frame 1851 Navy in .36cal, Brass Frame Remington 1858 New Model Army, and Steel Frame Remington 1858 New Model Army, both in .44cal.

Revolvers marked DART are very rare and are very collectable. RPRCA is looking for the steel framed models. We have only two of these revolvers in our collection, Baby Dragoon and Brass Frame Remington.
 
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SDC

New member
Italian-made guns should also have an Italian "catalog" number somewhere on them, in the form "CAT.12345", or something similar; every civilian gun made in Italy has to conform to a certain allowed description in their National Catalog, with different numbers assigned to different calibres or barrel lengths of the same model; you should be able to enter that number at this page, and it'll give you the info you want.

http://www.poliziadistato.it/pds/armi/index.php
 
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Shotgun Willy

New member
Thanks SDC, but no such luck. I have a SN with the correct # of characters, but it doesn't pull up. I also looked at 1851, and it only lists Pietta and ASM.
 
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SDC

New member
The "Catalog Number" is separate from the serial number, and will have "Cat." in front of it; for example, if I pick up an Armi Jager 1873 reproduction in 45 Colt, it will have "Cat. 1456" stamped on it. If I enter "1456" and hit "search", it then takes me to a summary page that shows the type ("pistola"), model ("Jager-1873"), calibre ("45 Colt"), number of barrels ("1"), number of shots ("6"), etc., etc., and to a .pdf file that includes pictures of the gun in question and chamber dimensions.
 
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mykeal

New member
Catalog Number on Italian gp guns?

I have 21 Italian made pistols, revolvers, rifles and shotguns. I've not seen this 'Cat No.' marking on any of them. The brands are Uberti, Pietta, Armi San Paolo/Euroarms, Armi San Marco, Bondini and Pedersoli. The marking is also not mentioned in Dennis Adler's paper on Italian manufacturer's marks.

Where would one find such a mark?
 
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SDC

New member
On some of them it's fairly prominent, on the barrel or frame next to the manufacturer's info; on others, they make an effort to try to hide it, the same way they may try to hide logos on reproductions (under the rammer, front or side of the frame, etc.)
 
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Rusty.it

New member
You don't find a "catalog number" on front loader and on shotgun, this two kind of arms are exempt from catalog number, so you don't find a muzzleloader or a caps & ball revolver on the site of italian state police!
 
S

SDC

New member
Thanks for the information, but I have to wonder how this can be? They require AIR GUNS to have catalog numbers, so why not shotguns or black powder guns?
 
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Hawg

New member
All I get is page not found.
This catalog number is pure B.S. None of my Italian guns have anything like it on them. C&B or cartridge guns either one.
 
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