Bush's War on Guns?

[labgrade]

"Trust is a hard thing to come by in this world." Quote from Curt Russel playing (mumble) in The Thing.

B9mmHP,

OK, throw Ron onto the pile of one that has earned my respect for actually doing what his oath says he should - there's been few others.

Respect & trust - two different things. & at times, there's been a couple that I have even admired.

Trust - with the lives of my family? - nope.

 

[Monkeyleg]

My hope is that this was a soundbite to throw to the press and, perhaps as previously suggested, a way to derail McCain's gun show bill. I've been a big fan of Bush, but if he signs just one gun-control bill my days as a Republican are over.

 

[BogBabe]

Bob Locke, I guess I expected better from Bush on the gun issue because he's from Texas and he has a ranch and . . . well . . . I figured he would compromise (read "cave in") on various things like health care, Socialist Insecurity, environmental regulations, and so forth, but silly me, I thought he might stand up for our Second Amendment rights.

I didn't vote for him, though. Being a Libertarian in the great state of Florida, I was one of those who almost helped elect Gore by voting my conscience.

 

[Sodbuster]

BOHICA

Bush
Oilmen
Hold
Inside
Control of
America

 

[Skorzeny]

With politicians, there are degrees of trust. For example, I trust Congressman Bob Barr (R-Georgia) a heck of a lot more than I trust President Bush, whose commitment to constitutional causes are a bit, uh, suspect.

Skorzeny

 

[RickD]

Jim Peel

We bitch and moan about how they should enforce the laws that are on the books instead of making still more laws

I don't say that. What I say is that we should begin repealing gun laws wholesale.

Rick

 

[Tamara]

We bitch and moan about how they should enforce the laws that are on the books instead of making still more laws

When have I said that?

The vast majority of the gun laws on the books are as assinine and frequently ignored as a 55MPH speed limit on a Nevada interstate. Most of the rest are just unconstitutional.

 

[xxena]

All our pro gun senators and reps that usually champion our causes have been suspiciously silent through all of this....

I am sick and tired of the gun debate and the inflated and manufactured numbers revolving KIDS and teens....guns are NOT the highest rate of death by any means for kids, and I do mean real kids, from the ages of 0 -13. They are ONLY a true risk for teens that live in high risk areas or live high risk lifestyles which translates into one word GANGS....

I live outside the city of chicago and get bombarded daily with all the "shootings" in the city....with rare exception they are always gang related and the people involved are gang members, friends of their, enemies of their or kids that hang around with them and the occassional poor innocent kid that is caught in the cross fire...

Our here in the burbs we've had almost a dozen kids killed since the school year started....not one from guns...all from either drugs, auto accidents or drunk driving .......

There are reports out there by the FBI, the Justice Department, various doctor and medical groups and dozens of others that have all come to the same conclusion....

Death by gun fire is completely based on socio-economic factors...aka - the higher a crime and low income, low educational level area you live in the higher your risks of being shot or caught in the middle of a crime with gunfire. Low education, low income, low self esteem, high crime, high violence, high alcohol, high drug abuse areas see the greatest amount of illegal guns, guns used illegally, kids involved in gangs and other illegal activities etc...

Yes you have the occassional hunting or sport shooting accident and you have the occassional spoiled yuppie brat that takes dad's gun and commits suicide or shoots someone he's PO"d at but statistically speaking those incidents are rare vrs. the gun/crime/gang rates in the high populated cities with low income and high risk criteria....

Again - the answer is NOT more gun control....its Crime and Criminal Control. The laws are supposed to be written to target the criminal element despite age and to bring them to justice, instead what we are seeing is gun control groups forcing more and more passage of laws that disarm the law abiding from their own protection or recreation and laws to make victims out of the real criminals.

Maybe if we stopped treating Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and the rest of the racist rabble rousers like Gods and treated them like the trouble makers they are and NOT be afraid to stand up to them and challenge them - we might just get to the bottom of the problem in the inner cities.

Nationwide the Black upon Black crime is still the highest - these people are preying upon themselves in their own areas of cities....its not Whitie, or Mr. Korean, or Mr. Mexican or Mr. Arab coming in there and shooting the place up and killing Black Men - its their own brothers in their own neighborhoods.....

Its not KIDS killing kids ....its KIDs that find the life of crime and gangs their family that kill without conscience or afterthought of what they have done.

Even the white males involved in all the school shootings few years back...every one of these kids had documented emotional, mental or psychological problems. NONE Of them were some Prom King type kid turned bad and gone on a shooting rampage for no reason. Each and every one of those kids gave out warning signs of trouble to come time and time again and they were ignored, by parents, by neighbors, by teachers and school officials and other kids. On the rare instances where someone saw trouble coming and tried to alert the powers to be - they were dismissed until it was too late. Almost every one of those kids were also being treated with "adult drugs" like Prozac, Ritalin, etc....all which carry a warning lable not to give to teens or children during puberty due to the adverse effects of the drugs with the increase in hormonal changes at this point which often manifestes itself in delusions and violent behavior...... How come none of the doctors prescribing the drugs for these kids ever read up on the side effects in their PDR's.....

Kids and people that commit these types of crimes have problems, need to be identified and stopped and helped before they can create any or more carnage....

Bush - I am very disappointed...he has fallen into the same trap as those prior to him.....to survive politically he is also selling the law abiding gun owner down the river....

A bandaid does not cure cancer - nor does this type of thinking or legislation even come close to addressing the real problems and some sensible solutions...

More Knee Jerk Reactions.....and WE not real Criminals pay the price for it time and time again....

 

[CMichael]

I agree with President Bush.

With owning guns comes reponsiblity. If we use the guns to committ a crime we should pay a high price.


Michael

 

[444]

"I am sick and tired of the gun debate and the inflated and manufactured numbers revolving KIDS and teens....guns are NOT the highest rate of death by any means for kids, and I do mean real kids, from the ages of 0 -13. They are ONLY a true risk for teens that live in high risk areas or live high risk lifestyles which translates into one word GANGS.... "

I am not sure these are manufactured numbers. As I tryed to indicate in my previous post, these numbers are however misleading. This is another case of hype or using meaningless statistics to justify your position. The fact is that most teenagers are healthy. They arn't old enough to be dying from heart disease, COPD, complications from hypertension, diabetes etc. A very small percentage of American teenagers die. Therefore, we can pick one cause of death and say that a huge percentage of teenagers that die, die from that cause. This is just like the old story of the high school class where all the graduating females married all the graduating males. You see, there were only two people in the high school class. So, if you had two people die and one of them was shot, you could honestly say that guns caused 50% of the deaths. Concealed behind the statistic is the fact that only one person died.

 

[labgrade]

xxena,

Almost sounds like there "needs to be a certain level of violence to further the agenda." Where have I heard that before?

CMichael,

Take a look at only one portion of federal firearms laws at
this thread & after reading through the link provided, come back & tell us if there's not at least one provision that you think shouldn't be enforced. Or should they all?

Breaking, or misinterpreting, any one of these provisions is a crime (likely a felony) & after a quick scan, I didn't see anything in there that is actually "criminal" in the normal sense of the word.

Lots of "shall be fined as provided in this title, imprisoned not more than 5 (or 10) years, or both" mentioned in the penalties section. Many for knowlingly giving false information (which criminals are exempt due to the 5th amend), possession of "bad" things, etc.

Didn't see a single reference to harming anyone, robbing someone, etc. - all are having a firearm in the wrong place, having the wrong kind of firearm or ammunition, not filling out paperwork properly, etc.

There's crimes & then again, there's just stuff that's against the law.

 

[Inspector Callahan]

New Gunshow protection Union

 

[BogBabe]

Posted by CMichael:
With owning guns comes reponsiblity. If we use the guns to committ a crime we should pay a high price.

How about, "If we commit a crime we should pay a high price"? If a bad guy kills someone with a gun, a knife, a tire iron, a fist, or a frying pan, the person is just as dead.

If a bad guy rapes a woman, she's just as raped whether or not he had a gun.

If a bad guy breaks into your home in the dead of night and smothers you with your pillow, you're just as dead as if he shot you.

I'm not against harsh punishments for those who commit crimes using guns; I just question why the use of the gun should single them out for a harsher punishment than otherwise.

 

[BogBabe]

Posted by 444:
A very small percentage of American teenagers die. Therefore, we can pick one cause of death and say that a huge percentage of teenagers that die, die from that cause.

I've made the same point as you about teenagers not dying from natural causes in very large numbers. But you seem to give credence to the notion that a high percentage of teens who die, die from gun-related deaths.

Take a look at the chart below, from the CDC:

As you can see, guns account for only a tiny tiny percentage of all deaths among children under 10. Except for black males, gun deaths never account for more than 20 percent of all deaths in any age group, even during the peak violence years of 15-24.

It's perfectly true to say that more children die from guns than from all natural causes combined. That doesn't mean guns are a leading cause of death among children; it just means that children almost never die from natural causes. The gun grabbers will recite misleading statistic after misleading statistic, and we need to be prepared to refute them by putting things into context.

 

[444]

"But you seem to give credence to the notion that a high percentage of teens who die, die from gun-related deaths. "

We are on the same page here. My point is that if we listed all the causes of death to children, broken down the statistics might show that guns caused a high percentage of them. When compared against the whole, no. Also, in the statistics they are using, they are not leaving out black males. As you can see on your chart, you could honestly say that in the age group 15-19, almost 50% of black males die of gun shot wounds. Don't get me wrong; I don't buy into any of this. I will be the first one to say that this is all BS and it pisses me off. I am just trying to point out where they get their line of BS. Also note that your statistics are over 13 years old. Each passing year our society gets more violent. I was working as a paramedic in 1988 when these statistics were compiled. We used to go on several stabbings a day. Shooting were much less frequent. I couldn't tell you the last time I went on a stabbing.
"But you seem to give credence to the notion that a high percentage of teens who die, die from gun-related deaths." This is true, but I don't give credence to the idea that this is a significant problem that requires the government to enact new oppresive gun laws.

 

[Monkeyleg]

For years we've been told that the increased homicide rates are a factor of economic conditions in our inner cities. If that were the case, wouldn't homicide rates have soared during the Depression years? True, there were the Bonnie and Clydes, Dillingers and others, but their notoriety is due to the fact that there were so few real killers during that time.

It's the drug trade that's driven this, and because our legislators can't put a lid on that they have to go after guns to try and save face when confronted with their failures.

 

[BogBabe]

Posted by 444:
I will be the first one to say that this is all BS and it pisses me off. I am just trying to point out where they get their line of BS. Also note that your statistics are over 13 years old. Each passing year our society gets more violent.

Those were the statistics I was able to find on the CDC Web site. That site is not easy to navigate or to find what you're looking for. Do you like these any better, from 1997:

According to the National Safety Council's "Accident Facts: 1997 Edition," (see http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/afp08.htm) there were 6,700 accidental deaths for children age 0 to 14. These accidental deaths break down to:

3,300 or 49.3% due to Motor-Vehicle accidents
1,000 or 14.9% due to drowning
660 or 9.9% due to fires, burns and deaths associated with fire
250 or 3.7% due to suffocation by ingested object
240 or 3.6% due to firearms
190 or 2.8% due to falls
100 or 1.5% due to poisoning by solids or liquids
60 or 0.9% due to poisoning by gases or vapor
900 or 13.4% due to all other types

6,700 or 100% due to all causes

 

[xxena]

Bogbabe: Thanks

444 - try and paint it anyway you like but guns are NOT the #1 killer of kids or teens outside of gangs....

Kids and teens in gangs or living in gang infested areas have a greater chance of dying by firearms than kids and teens NOT in theose areas but taking in to respect the WHOLE USA - Guns are NOT the #1 killer for anyone.

Its crap pure and simple and the fastest way to anyone 's heart strings and pocket book is to use "kids"....

I'm a mother with a few of my own I should know....

I'm also a retired paramedic from the city of chicago who's run was the INNER city.....did I see gunshot victims - sure plenty - some were accidents others were on purpose...what was the leading cause of gun predators and their victims - not necessarily in this order but these were the catalysts:

drugs abuse, alcohol abuse, poverty, little or low education, low self esteem, no self worth, get rich quick idea without working and gangs, gangs and more gangs....

You have any idea how many times inner city hospital ER and Trauma units are put on BY PASS and people are forced to be taken miles away to outskirting hospitals or even surburban hospitals because the inner city is just jam packed with gang members that have been shot and stabbed and are getting treated off the taxpayers dollars...

Do you really think these jerks work at legal jobs for a living, and pay taxes and pay bills like the rest of us.....if so - you and I need to talk !

Few years back I slipped on some black ice on the driveway in the winter and broke my wrist - I drove myself to the suburban Trauma center I worked at for years after getting off the ambulance... I waited 6 hours to be treated...were they busy - not really - but they were the "by pass center" for a big gang fight in Chicago and had 6 Chicago FD ambulances pull in full of gangbangers that needed to be treated....

How many do you think had the cash or insurance to pay.....try ZERO....how many do you think harassed the other people from the area in the waiting room... try ALL OF THEM.....then their fellow gang members unhurt showed up in cars and came to keep them company in the waiting room...

I've seen zoo animals better behaved.....

For the most part THIS is where you gun death and injury numbers orginate from and will continue.....thank all the bleeding heart liberals and the antigun groups that continue to help them florish and thrive without fear of arrest much less conviction or jail time...

 

[444]

BogBabe, No actually I don't like those numbers any better because it goes from age 0-14. According to your previous numbers, death by gun shot skyrocketed after the age of 14. By the way, I appreciate your research into the matter. It is obvious you are passionate about this.

xxena
Please, take it easy. This is just a friendly discussion.

"444 - try and paint it anyway you like but guns are NOT the #1 killer of kids or teens outside of gangs.... "

Ok, that very well may be, but the numbers don't exclude teens or kids outside of gangs.

"You have any idea how many times inner city hospital ER and Trauma units are put on BY PASS and people are forced to be taken miles away to outskirting hospitals or even surburban hospitals because the inner city is just jam packed with gang members that have been shot and stabbed and are getting treated off the taxpayers dollars..."

Yes, as a matter of fact I do. Congratulations on your career as a paramedic. I have worked as a paramedic for the last 17 years. In fact I am working right now and will visit ERs such as this tonight.

My attempt here was two fold. #1 was just to have an intelligent conversation. It wasn't intended to start any arguments or arouse any emotions. #2 When attempting to debate with the antis, I want to use factual information. Very often statistics that have little if any meaning are used to make something sound the way we want it to sound. The statistics they are using may very well be true (according to the numbers supplied by BogBabe it looks to me like they can say this without out right lying), us saying they arn't makes us look bad and hurts our cause. We need to examine the facts and present a logical argument back. As I said in my original post, I think the logical argument back is that comparing the statistics in teenagers is meaningless because they don't die in the numbers that adults die and their death from disease is much less making the numbers skewed. Again, I consider the statistics to be more media hype used in a manner to make the problem worse than it is with the goal of more gun control laws that will not have any effect on the problem. Please, I may come off as a jerk, but that wasn't my intention.

 

[Jim March]

Ashcroft's comments regarding punishing crooks who actually use guns unlawfully are fine, by anybody's standards.

Using "existing gun laws" on people who can't legally own guns due to prior criminal records is somewhat problematic, but it's less so when you're talking about people with violent records or are known members of drug gangs. Punishing such for having guns isn't the sort of major restriction of rights that bothers me.

Sigh. You all *know* that the last election was right down to the wire, split so close Bush didn't even win the popular vote, right?

Do y'all understand what that *means*?

It means Bush and company can't risk any positions that are viewed by the public as radical.

Get used to that idea.

Where they can help the most right now is in blocking bad bills, letting good ones through, and picking Robes for the Supremes.

Let's take one example: the recent bill to arm pilots. Bush spoke against that idea, remember? The public will remember that part. But he also signed it, and probably worked with GOP on the hill to make sure it did indeed pass.

Expect to see a lot of "covert support" of that nature that ends up helping us, without leaving Bush looking like a pot-stirrer.