Broken 1911 Guide Rod

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madmo44mag

New member
In all my years shooting I have never see or heard of a 1911 style pistol guide rod breaking.

Yesterday at the range the guide rod on my Para P14 broke and rattled out the front of the bushing.:eek::(

It broke right where the barrel follower is welded on.

I’m just curious if anyone has ever seen a 1911 guide rod break.

I have not taken the gun apart yet to investigate or look for other damage. That is a project for tonight.
 
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Aguila Blanca

Staff
The flange on the inboard end has a semicircular cut to "follow" the bottom of the barrel.

p_213103100_1.jpg
 
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madmo44mag

New member
Aguila Blanca - that be the critter.
Broke where the flange is welded to the rod.
Actually on this guide rod it is not welded but peened on.
 
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polyphemus

New member
Just so we are on the same page.
The part is described by John Browning as the guide tube collar and it is staked on not welded to it.
It does not follow anything,it functions as the reaction spring rear stop and shields the frame from battering at the end of the slide's rearward travel.
It would appear by OP's description that the collar was defectively attached and
broke lose,like all M1911 parts when properly manufactured it will last the life of the pistol.
 
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g.willikers

New member
Nope, never saw one of those break.
But I live a sheltered life.
Of all the 1911s that are out there, and all the ones used constantly in competition circles, yours is probably not the only one.
Especially when considering all the folks making these parts all over the world.
Just replace it and keep on trucking - with a different brand, maybe.
"Guide Tube Collar?"
"Barrel Follower?"
How about just calling it the big end of the recoil spring guide rod?
 
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polyphemus

New member
How about just calling it the big end of the recoil spring guide rod?
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How about just calling parts by their name so everyone understands what they
are talking about?.
This is a descriptive,logical and correct name used by the inventor of the pistol
and I'm sure some mod is going to take exception to this and impose some kind of sanction on me and call me a troll for pointing it out.
 
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Aguila Blanca

Staff
polyphemus said:
The part is described by John Browning as the guide tube collar and it is staked on not welded to it.
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polyphemus said:
How about just calling parts by their name so everyone understands what they are talking about?
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Where does Browning call it that, and where did you deduce that the flange is staked to the guide rod tube? The blueprints show it to be all one piece, and nowhere in the blueprints or any M1911 or M1911A1 field manual have I ever seen that part of the guide rod described as a "guide tube collar."

http://www.weaponeer.net/uploads/files/25652/1911_complete_blueprints.PDF
Scroll to numbered page 12 (page 14 of 56 in the Adobe viewer).

If the allegedly "proper" name for the part isn't shown anywhere, how's a guy to know that's the "proper" name for it? I've been around 1911s since I was in the Army in the mid- to late 1960s, and I've never heard that part referred to as anything other than the "guide rod flange." Even though the OP used a different term, I had no trouble understanding what he was talking about.
 
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polyphemus

New member
Where does Browning call it that, and where did you deduce that the flange is staked to the guide rod tube? The blueprints show it to be all one piece, and nowhere in the blueprints or any M1911 or M1911A1 field manual have I ever seen that part of the guide rod described as a "guide tube collar"
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Read the patent application.John M. Browning didn't write the field manual.
And the print does show it as a unit but as in the case in discusion it will often
be manufactured in two parts.
 
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Unclenick

Staff
Madmo,

James K has the right idea. When I starting taking classes at Gunsite, Cooper was wearing a holster he'd had for three years and still hadn't quite decided to approve of. He was very careful about proving the value of things that were new or different. He said the value of extended recoil spring guide rods had failed to reveal itself in the many 1911's that went through the school. There was no apparent added reliability of function, nor added accuracy, nor reduction in spring wear, nor even better repeatability to where ejected cases landed. Just no identifiable benefits other than adding a little weight to a Goldcup, which added weight some prefer for offhand bullseye shooting.

A drawback to the extended guide may just have revealed itself to you. The long rod is a longer lever arm with which to pry against the staking of the collar. If the hole in the recoil spring plug bears against the rod any as the slide goes into counterbattery, it may mean the collar is not free to seat squarely against the frame when the slide smacks into it. I can see that eventually working the staking loose.
 
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polyphemus

New member
Hopefully we are past the sniping and we can concentrate on the M1911. Since the Army field manual was mentioned I would like to bring to the attention of students of the model Army field manual 23-35 it's probably the best available
treatise on the pistol and anyone who owns a 1911 should at least read it once
and become familiar with this proud military arm from the soldiers end. It was
designed to defend them in close combat and this manual is their text book.It was written around 1960 when soldiers' lives depended on it.
 
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James K

Member In Memoriam
FWIW, most guides were made in one piece, per the drawings. But during WWII, some were made in two pieces, seamless tubing and stamped heads, then copper brazed together. These turn up from time to time in R-R and Ithaca pistols. Ones made by hot swaging were also approved, but are not common. More recently, all kinds of arrangements have turned up, good and not so good.

I will say this again, though. IMHO, the purpose of a full length guide rod is to aid in extraction - the extraction of money from a sucker's pocket and the deposit of it into the pocket of the FLGR maker.

Jim
 
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madmo44mag

New member
Thanks for all the replies.
I was a wheel gun man for many years until CCW was passed here in Texas and a wheel gun is not what I wanted to carry for CCW.
I have owned 1911 pistols off and on over the years but never really got into them.
I would get one in a trade of some kind and shoot it a while and trade it off for another wheel gun until I came across this Para P14 LDA
I fell in love with it.
I admit my knowledge of what some parts are called may be lacking but I never knew there was any other description of a guide rod other than a guide rod so I took a guess at what the “flange” or what ever that thingy:rolleyes: is called.
I am looking for a stainless steel short rod and plug now.
I now own several other auto loaders and never seen a guide rod break even shooting hot ammo. No one I know has ever seen one break.
Just one of those things.
I still have not got the pistol apart to check for any other damage. Maybe tonight.
It’s funny how for years I cared nothing for pistols and swore by the wheel gun and now I own as many pistols as revolvers.
 
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buckhorn_cortez

New member
I will say this again, though. IMHO, the purpose of a full length guide rod is to aid in extraction - the extraction of money from a sucker's pocket and the deposit of it into the pocket of the FLGR maker.
Click to expand...

I have three 1911's that came from the builder with full length guide rods. A Detonics Combat Master, a Wilson Supergrade, and a full size custom built by Bob Marvel.

The Combat Master and Supergrade are short barrel guns without barrel bushings. The full size Marvel built gun would have cost the same amount whether it had a full length or standard guide rod.

The cost difference (in parts) is negligible between the two style guide rods, so the idea that the smith is getting rich off of guide rods is laughable at best. It was Bob's choice as to guide rod type - and he used a full length guide rod. I would assume Bob had a reason for using a FLGR as Bob's guns are know for two things - accuracy and reliability.

You can't change either the Combat Master or Supergrade to standard guide rods as the guns will not function with a standard guide rod. The Marvel custom could be changed - but, I run what Bob built because that's how he sent the gun to me and I have no reason to change what he's built.

Some times there's more to it than a simplistic "IMHO" with a trite, often repeated Internet meme attached.
 
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Aguila Blanca

Staff
The comment about extracting money from the user's pocket refers to the many makers of aftermarket full-length guide rods that are sold to unsuspecting owners of perfectly good 1911s with the standard recoil spring guide rod who get sold on the notion that adding a full-length rod will increase their accuracy, reduce their follow-up shot split times, and save their marriages. None of which is actually the case. I've had a few 1911s come into my hands that had FLGRs and the first thing I did was install standard guide rods with closed-front plugs. Doing so didn't cause my marriage to fail, so I think John Moses Browning was onto something when he designed it as he did.
 
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