BP replacement

[Scorch]

I have been loading American Pioneer 3F in my 32-20 Stevens 44 and my Winchester 1885 High Wall in 40-70 WCF for about 3-4 years now. It is accurate, brass extracts easily, and it smokes but it doesn't foul like BP, so I can keep shooting longer. Not quite the same as black, but much more forgiving. I load it just like black powder, overpowder fiber wad and wax lubed bullets.

I tried Triple 7 and Pyrodex, but the hangfires and nasty fouling made me give up on them, and I went back to black. Then about 3-4 years ago I couldn't find black powder and decided to try American Pioneer. It works for me.

 

[Hawg]

I tried Triple 7 and Pyrodex, but the hangfires and nasty fouling made me give up on them

I've never had a hang fire with Pyrodex in a cartridge and the fouling is no worse than black. The only thing I ever had a hang fire with was a 63 Sharps but look at the long curvy fire channel it has.

 

[44caliberkid]

Driftwood knows his stuff on antiques and black powder. Ill reiterate what he said about Cowboy loads. Duplicating black powder velocities with smokeless is not the same as duplicating black powder pressures. Other gunwriters such as Mike Venturino and John Taffin will also warn you off shooting smokeless in antique Colts.
When I was seriously into Cowboy shooting, I did black powder class with Big Lube bullets and real BP. I was in a number of 2 or 3 day matches (Nationals or Regionals) firing 5 stages a day. I just wiped the soot and grease off with a paper towel at the end of each day and didn't clean them till I went home. The cylinders turned freely and the guns shot dead nuts accurate over 200 - 300 rounds.

 

[Jim Watson]

Smokeless powder, even in light loads creates a very different pressure curve than Black Powder. It is not just the amount of peak pressure that counts, it is also how the pressure gets spread out over time. Most Smokeless powders, including Trailboss and most powders used for 'cowboy' ammunition have a sharp pressure spike that can shatter the older steel used in pre-1900 Colts.

I read and hear this frequently.
Are these "pressure curves" published anywhere for the ordinary shooter?

 

[ligonierbill]

Another substitute is Alliant Black MZ. I have read that it is made by American Pioneer Powder, but I cannot verify that. I have used Black MZ extensively for Cowboy Action shooting, and yes, you can use bullets lubed for smokeless. At a typical match, I ran 35 rounds through each of my SAA clones and 70 rounds through my replica 1873 with no cleaning between stages. Cleanup is no problem. The biggest problem with shooting "on the dark side" is seeing the targets through the smoke. And Black MZ is cheap.

That said, I am loading more holy black in cartridge firearms. It smells worse, but cleanup is just something you do. And unless I've only put a few rounds through them, I clean my smokeless arms after each range session anyway.

 

[Hawg]

Black MZ was discontinued a couple of years ago. There may still be some to be had but they won't be making any more.

 

[ligonierbill]

Dang! Well, I have a good supply. But they ain't quit making true holy black.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I read and hear this frequently.
Are these "pressure curves" published anywhere for the ordinary shooter?

I know you have seen this before, because you were part of the discussion.

Anyway, I am posting it here, if I can figure out how.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/409964-38-s-w-pressures.html

 

[Jim Watson]

Yup. The link off of that thread is even more informative... sort of.
We just have to kick it around every once in a while with nothing resolved, there are the charcoal burners and the nitro heads and never the twain shall meet.

One change with time, the guns being asked about are in worse condition. The nice old guns have either been sewed up in collections or are being shot by folks like DJ who have their methods down pat.

It is good to know that APP is a suitable fake.
How about 777 and BH209?
I'd rather shoot Black than Pyrodex. And have. Swiss in a single shot is not a problem, but I have not shot it in a revolver or repeater.

I tried Black Mag 3 in .38-44 Target when it was The Next Big Thing in Fakes.
Velocity was 500 fps with high SD but accuracy was excellent.
As best I recall from 1997, measuring was awful, cleanup was not bad.

I think Trail Boss is being pushed beyond its original intent. They should make "Wagon Master" to deliver BP rifle velocity. In smokeless "rated" guns, of course.

 

[Hawg]

I'd rather shoot Black than Pyrodex. And have. Swiss in a single shot is not a problem, but I have not shot it in a revolver or repeater.

I'd rather shoot black too but when I can't get it I shoot Pyrodex. I can't imagine anything Swiss wouldn't be good in. Unless that was a typo and you meant to say Pyrodex. If that's the case Pyrodex works very well in revolvers and repeaters and even 1911's. It does hang fire when used in a 63 Sharps.

 

[darkgael]

I like Alliant Black MZ. I bought a few pounds when it was available. Like it says on the label:
“Clean burning, dependable ignition, virtually non-corrosive”
I especially like the ignition part; it lights dependably in my flintlocks (no BP kicker needed). Clean up is a breeze.
Pete

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

When Colt designed the '73 SAA they added a cylinder bushing that deflects the cylinder/barrel flash and the fouling. These are not like the Remington New Model Army that foul out fast and the open top cap and ball pistols.

Howdy Again

Yes, when Colt introduced the SAA in 1873 the cylinder had a removable bushing. The bushing was a slip fit and provided an extra bearing surface to keep things rolling smoothly. On the left is an Uberti Cattleman cylinder, on the right is a 2nd Gen Colt cylinder. Both with their bushings pulled out. The relief cut around the front of the cylinder helped direct fouling away from the cylinder pin.

When Remington introduced their cartridge revolver in 1875, its cylinder included a bushing too, however the bushing was part of the cylinder, it was not removable. And it did not stand as proud from the front face of the cylinder as a Colt bushing did. Left to right in this photo the cylinders are Remington Model 1890, Remington Model 1875, Colt 2nd Gen SAA, and S&W New Model Number Three. Since 1869 S&W Top Break cylinders always had a prominent bushing pressed into the cylinder. Notice how much further it protrudes from the face of the cylinder than any of the others. S&W Top Breaks can be shot with Black Powder all afternoon and the cylinders do not bind. That is with the originals. Modern replicas of S&W Top Breaks have a much reduced bushing that does not deflect fouling very well.

 

[Oliver Sudden]

Regarding the posting I made on this thread, my source for the cylinder metal is from Jerry Kuhnhausen’s book on Colt. Page 28 “ Regarding factory change over to smokeless powder SAA model production” . He further states how there’s disagreement between people about what and when, so caution is the best route Interresting that little of the OP’s pistol is as it left the factory.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Regarding the posting I made on this thread, my source for the cylinder metal is from Jerry Kuhnhausen’s book on Colt. Page 28 “ Regarding factory change over to smokeless powder SAA model production” . He further states how there’s disagreement between people about what and when, so caution is the best route Interresting that little of the OP’s pistol is as it left the factory.

Here are some quotes from Kuhnhausen. I have made a couple of pertinent lines bold.

At the bottom of page 69 there is a frame detail note. "The transverse cylinder base pin lock (aka base pin catch or latch) associated by some collectors as a smokeless frame identifying feature, was first introduced as a target model feature in 1892 and was finally phased in as a standard production feature circa mid 1896. This said, collectors have nonetheless found S.A.A. frames in the 183,000 serial range(circa early 1899) with black powder style (front frame screw retained) base pins."

Top of page 70:

"Disagreement still exists amongst historians and collectors as to when Colt factory conversion to smokeless powder model S.A.A. Revolver production was finally completed. Some believe incorrectly, that all frames made beginning with, or after, s/n 165,000 (mid 1896) are smokeless powder frames. As far as actual changeover to smokeless powder S.A.A. production is concerned, three things are absolutely certain: (1) Colt S.A.A. Revolvers produced up to serial number 180,000 (reached about mid 1898) were not guaranteed by the factory for smokeless powder cartridges. (2) Colt did not specifically guarantee S.A.A. Revolvers for smokeless powder cartridges until 1900 (beginning s/n in 1900 was about 192,000), and (3) the smokeless powder verified proof (the letters VP in a triangle) was not stamped on the Colt S.A.A. Revolver triggerguards until some time in 1901."


Bottom of page 71:

"1st Generation S.A.A. cylinder material changes began to occur at about the same time that S.A.A. frames were being metallurgically updated. Cylinders prior to approx. s/n 96,000 (mid 1883) were made from materials generally resembling high grade malleable iron. Original cylinders from approx. s/n 96,000 to about 180,000 (mid 1898) were made from transitional low/medium grade carbon type steels. These cylinders and their parent frames were not factory guaranteed for smokeless powder cartridges. Cylinders after frame s/n 180,000 (mid 1898) began to be made from medium carbon type steels. Later versions of these cylinders were better and more uniformly heat treated. S.A.A. revolvers with cylinders of this final type were factory guaranteed in 1900 for standard factory load smokeless powder cartridges."