Body armor defeating 9mm?

[Big Shrek]

Brazil has some truly amazing, light and comfortable body armor and bullet-resistant clothing.
Look into it. Worth sailing down there for it, and the cost savings instead of shipping it.


Change 10mm to 9x25 dillon? 10mm exceeds most body armor anyway,
might as well stick with it & use Buffalo Bore ammo.

In Cali, at this point, individuals defense rights are extremely limited...move if possible.
10 round capacity limits unless a grandfathered pistol with Pre-ban mags.
Guns must be on the CDOJ "approved" list, or pre-ban.
Not to mention a plethora of anti-gun rules that honestly, only affect legitimate gun owners,
as it seems pretty easy to get ANYTHING past the border...AK47's and other destructive devices.
If someone wants a LAW rocket launcher, they can simply go to Mexico and get it,
know where to cross and you'll never be bothered by patrols...just watch where the Coyotes cross
our border is at best, a bad joke...they prevent VERY LITTLE.

So in Cali, i'd suggest deep conceal, and deal with any consequences if you survive.
Then there's the whole, Did the self-defense get spotted by a camera??
If not, and nobody witnessed you solving the issue, police the brass and skedaddle.
(BLM's "Nobody Talks, Everyone Walks" applies as well, if with trusted associates )
(AKA Sgt. Schultz "I know NOTHING!!" )

 

[JohnKSa]

The defender's goal is to inflict one or a few, as many as are required to stop the attack.

Inflicting casualties on multiple attackers with body armor and armed with rifles when all you have is a typical concealed handgun is very difficult.

The Arroyo shooting in Tyler is a good example. One man with a rifle and body armor held off numerous persons armed with handguns, killing two persons and wounding 4 officers.

The North Hollywood bank robbery is another one. The robbers were essentially impervious to long-range pistol fire and held off numerous cops armed with handguns.

A person who hopes to successfully engage multiple attackers who are equipped with rifles and body armor will need to be really, really good, or really, really lucky, or both. His choice of ammo is unlikely to be a major factor in the outcome.

Not initially, but if escape or evasion is not an option, kill a creep and take HIS rifle (or grenades, or explosives)...

This is very circular.

What you're saying is that you can change the odds against you by killing one of your attackers and arming yourself with his weapons.

It is true that once you have defeated one or your attackers and armed yourself with his weapons the odds are now better, but there's a practical problem. In order to accomplish that, you still have to defeat one of your attackers against very bad odds. Yes, once you partially solve the problem, the problem gets easier, but that doesn't help you at all in the beginning when you're still facing all of them armed only with your concealed handgun.

You can't just ignore the original situation and say that once you kill one of them it's simple from there. You don't get to start the scenario from the point where you've killed one of them and taken his weapons. You have to start from the beginning.

When you start from the beginning, prevailing from that point is going to take a lot of skill or a lot of luck, or both.

A Cz75 holds 17 to 20 rounds, while a P-35 holds 14 to 17.

If you believe that a full-sized, double-stack pistol is a "typical concealed carry pistol", then I can see why you wouldn't agree with the capacity comparison.

There are certainly people who carry full-sized, double-stack pistols concealed, but I don't believe I've ever heard that kind of pistol called a "typical concealed handgun". I think that it wouldn't be hard to reach a consensus that the typical concealed handgun capacity is 8 rounds plus or minus 3.

Did you just hold down your "0" key until your finger got tired, then quit?

Pretty much, and it was intended to be at least slightly humorous. I don't know what the actual number is, just that it's very small.

Just out of curiosity, what's your estimate of how many non-LEO civilians wear body armor 100% of the time in public?

...prudent move would be to consider ALL aspects mentioned. One may STILL not survive, but the odds of survival would seem much better.

For whatever it's worth, I do agree that if a person is willing to go about constantly kitted up in full preparation for "defensive/counter-attack" capability against "a "Paris-like attack" scenario" (i.e. body armor capable of defeating rifle ammo, full-sized pistol, backup pistol, spare ammo, etc.), then they probably will improve their odds of survival. Is that the premise you're trying to support?

That wasn't really what I was getting at in my initial response. That was a response to a question about what kind of pistol ammo would improve the odds of surviving/prevailing in a "paris-like attack".

My response was intended to convey the idea that given the stated goal it would be more productive to focus one's time, money and effort somewhere other than on finding some "magic ammo"--specifically on skills development.

 

[Sharkbite]

I go with the general thought process that NO handgun that is CCW'd will defeat any body armor.

Certainly no standard caliber (9mm, 40, 45,etc). I dont think even the vaunted 10mm stands much chance against a 3a vest. Maybe against a 2a, just in terms of backface deformation depth, but i doubt you could get a 10mm bullet to penetrate the vest.

I admit to not having shot a vest with any 10mm load, but ive shot plenty of vests (2a, 2 & 3a) with a bunch of different calibers. Getting rounds thru a panel is no small feat...even shooting rounds the vest is not rated for very rarely results in penetration.

I shot a 2a vest with a 9mm +p fmj out of a 16" barreled AR. velocity was WAY higher then that vest was rated for. Backface deformation was higher then NIJ standard, but the vest stopped the bullet.

 

[silverbullet6oh]

JohnKSa said:

Ok, here's your scenario as I understand it.

Bad guy

Doesn't have to worry about the law.
Has backup.
Has body armor.
Can carry a rifle in addition to other weapons possibly including explosives.
May not plan to survive the attack and so has little or nothing to lose.


You

Have to worry about the law.
Don't have backup.
Don't have body armor.
Can carry a concealed pistol.
Want to survive.


Conclusion. You had better be really, really good and/or really, really lucky if you plan to win. If that were the scenario I wanted to prepare for, I'd be spending my time and money on range fees, practice ammo, a timer, targets and professional training, not trying to find magic bullets.

Right on!!!

It all comes down to the shooters ability!

 

[Kosh75287]

SHARKBITE, this is not an argument, just me gathering data. Have you shot any vests or panels with 7.62x25mm FMJ rounds?

 

[Grizz12]

from what in understand, .22mag will penetrate body armor because of the thin diameter and high velocity of the round.

 

[Kosh75287]

if a person is willing to go about constantly kitted up in full preparation for "defensive/counter-attack" capability against "a "Paris-like attack" scenario" (i.e. body armor capable of defeating rifle ammo, full-sized pistol, backup pistol, spare ammo, etc.), then they probably will improve their odds of survival. Is that the premise you're trying to support?

It is an egregious mischaracterisation of the premise I seek to support, and I think you know that. MY PREMISE is that, anytime one wears body armour, they are more protected than when they don't, just as when one carries a Cz-75 (compact, if you like, since you've decided the full-size is not "typical") and not a S&W Chief's Special, they are better able to respond to a threat.

It's rare that we may anticipate when our lives may be actively endangered by others, but such situations are far from non-existent. Indeed, it seemed apparent to coworkers that the San Bernardino creep was disgruntled, withdrawn, "out of sorts" or otherwise not conducting himself as he once had.
This should have a been a HUGE red flag, if not to supervisors, then certainly to coworkers. Given the possibility of a problem, if not attending or cancelling the dinner function was not practicable, then showing up being prepared as possible to preserve one's life seems the only prudent action, which includes concealed carry of personal weapons, and yes, if they have it, the use of body armour.
The Paris atrocity isn't much different. A western European country with stringent gun control, a very sizable muslim population component (and I'll bet you a used napkin against a $20 bill that > 0.000001% of THAT population is disgruntled), free and open access to venues in which very large numbers of unarmed and unprotected people gather of their own accord.... Yah, I'M thinkin' watch it all on T.V. or see if "Second Chance" exports their products to France.

0.000001%

Your "estimate" works out to one person in 100,000,000, or about 1/3 the population of the U.S. There probably aren't that many "non-LEO" licensed concealed carriers in the western hemisphere. If it IS a failed attempt at humour, perhaps it STILL succeeds in being "comical", perhaps just not the way you'd intended.

Just out of curiosity, what's your estimate of how many non-LEO civilians wear body armor 100% of the time in public?

MY estimate, based on no particular data beyond probability of random occurrence, is 2 or 3 in 50,000 such persons may be so "kitted up" as you put it, in the absence of an objectively discernible need. What you don't seem to get is that, the more such PPE is worn, the more likely it'll be present when needed. Think earplugs, safety glasses, seat belts, immunizations, renter's insurance, and the list goes on.

Do what you want to remain healthy, but don't discount MY precautions or the ones I recommend as "improbable". For the record, I don't own body armour, YET. But it's in the works.

Have a nice day.

 

[Kosh75287]

I could believe that of a .22 Mag, fired from a rifle, but I wonder if it'll penetrate a vest when fired from a revolver.

 

[Sharkbite]

SHARKBITE, this is not an argument, just me gathering data. Have you shot any vests or panels with 7.62x25mm FMJ rounds?
__________________

Yep.. Back in the mid 90's the little tokorov round was giving the vest manufactures fits. There was an abundance of steel jacketed rounds flooding into the country.

I tested Safarilands Multi-flex in level 2 (LAPD standard at the time) against that round. With ammo that didnt attract a magnet it always stopped. The steel jkt was a harder projectile to defeat but that vest did a great job.

In fact at the end of the test i ordered one as my primary wear vest. Now, vest tech has continued to improve since then and is even harder to defeat.

 

[hartcreek]

I reloaded a bunch of armor piercing rounds eight years ago for a retired LEO. The rounds were old and he was concerned about powder degragation. These were .357 rounds. I just shoved a cotton ball into my RCBS kinetic puller so the tips would not be damaged and whanged them out. I processed the brass and reloaded them as usual with magnum handgun primers. The only problem I had was seating them as these revolver rounds had a spire point so I rigged up an insert that I hot glued to a wadcutter seating rod.

The bullet was some kind of milsurp steel core spire point. I am sure that these rounds would act more like a needle going through a vest.

 

[JohnKSa]

It is an egregious mischaracterisation of the premise I seek to support...

Honestly, I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from and why, so the question was an attempt to nail things down, not an attempt to mischaracterize your position.

MY PREMISE is that, anytime one wears body armour, they are more protected than when they don't...

Sure, I think that goes without saying. Just as when someone carries a rifle instead of a concealed pistol, they have more capability to respond to a wider range of threats. The issue is that most people don't carry a rifle or wear body armor.

It's rare that we may anticipate when our lives may be actively endangered by others...

Which is why its pretty important to choose a defensive strategy that can be employed all of the time--or at the very least most of the time. If a person is in a situation where they can wear body armor all of the time (or at least most of the time) and are willing to do so, then that might be a good strategy. Same with carrying a rifle, or a full-sized handgun, etc. If those things aren't something that can be done on a reasonably frequent basis, then you're left with matching up two infrequent occurrences--which is unlikely.

Skill is something that you can take with you everywhere and good training is something that will tend to improve your odds of survival regardless of what tools you find at hand. And in many parts of the U.S. a concealed handgun is another thing that can be taken most places.

Your "estimate" works out to one person in 100,000,000, or about 1/3 the population of the U.S. There probably aren't that many "non-LEO" licensed concealed carriers in the western hemisphere.

Again, I never intended for the number to be an accurate figure. That said, it does work out to 1 person in 100 million, as you say. That would work out to 3 people in the entire U.S. given that the U.S. population is about 320 million.

Assuming a population of 7 billion in the world, 0.000001% would be 70 people out of the entire world.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

I reloaded a bunch of armor piercing rounds eight years ago for a retired LEO.

That doesn't sound legal.

Last I heard there were several remote detonate bombs left at the scene in San Bernardino. My guess is to hit first responders and the reason they found them so close was they had planned on returning immediately after the bombs went off. Luckily they didn't go off or there were never any actually at the scene.

I played a lot of Area-51 when I was younger. Shooting those toxic barrels the aliens would throw. I wonder if that works in real life...

The Hollywood bank robbers weren't just wearing a vest. They were wearing full body suits with hardbackers. The video coverage shows several officers scoring hits in areas that would likely cause stops in average soft armor.

Where has there been a definitive public announcement any of the recent terror attacks involved body armor?

Run if you can. Pelvic girdle and run if you have to. Let the police sort it out from there.

 

[Andy Blozinski]

Unless they're wearing hard case plate armor, bullet proof armor deforms with the impact and results in serious impact damage. Depending on if I win the powerball lottery twice in a row or if I encounter bad guys in body armor first...
I figure ploughing a few rounds of .357 magnum deer hunting ammo (158 grain Hornady XTP) into a kevlar armored bad guy will screw him up enough that he's far from fully functional for a bit.

That being said...how are copper rounds for armor piercing?

 

[Fivesense]

Great conversation in this thread. Thank you.

 

[vyse.04]

I don't select a CC firearm with the intention of defeating body armor, nor do I think 3 shots (2 in the chest, one in the head) with solve all my problems if I have to discharge a firearm. Body armor would certainly make kill shots to center mass less likely, but I'd venture to guess most of us would fall to the ground if shot in the thigh/leg, or have a shooting arm rendered useless if a shot were placed there.

Most of these mass shooters are people who have more weapons at their disposal than their victims, and body armor generally comes into play vs LEOs. These shooters pick places where they feel protected (church, school, work gatherings, movie theatre, etc.), and if you can't legally carry a firearm, the armor penetration point means nothing. Add to that their planning. You as a law abiding citizen can never be prepared for any and all occasions, especially when IEDs are involved. That point is even more of an issue when you consider they do not have to conceal assault rifles when they start the incident.

Terrorist threats are better suited to the police, but a person who is CCing can certainly limit the effect of a terrorist attack. I feel that knowing your surroundings will have as much of an impact (if not more) than the type of rounds in your magazine.

 

[kawasakifreak77]

Maybe... possibly with 7n31 or arcane rounds on soft armor only. But you're more likely to find a case of rocking horse manure at Wally.

Better stick to practicing head shots.

 

[Mike in Va.]

I remember seeing a demonstration, on TV, where they shot a WWII battle helmet
With a 1911, .45 acp, & a Tokarev, 7.62x25.
The.45 put a dent in the helmet, but did not penetrate, the Tokarev penetrated one side & put a dent in the other.
I don't know, but I feel that if it will penetrate steel, it would penetrate
light body armor.

 

[Kosh75287]

HERE is the answer to a fish-bowl shooting scenario where the creeps are wearing body armour!

I sure hope this posts right!

 

[barnbwt]

"Where has there been a definitive public announcement any of the recent terror attacks involved body armor?"
Since they never got further than stating "tactical clothing," I suspect there never was any, not that they'll issue a retraction (just like with Aurora, and Newtown, and...)

TCB

 

[ripnbst]

Kosh, you've been nothing but argumentative since post numero uno in this thread and then post .30 carbine as you armor piercing unicorn?

Do you live in the United States or somewhere else? Carrying a full sized gun and wearing armor is something you stand behind fervently as something everyone should do. Then mention you don't own armor. Do you even own a CZ75? Or did you just google "highest capacity semi auto handgun" and use that to support your extreme point mathematically?

I carry a compact 9mm that holds 12+1 and a spare mag for 25 rounds total. If I've got my gun, I've got my spare mag. My plan would be pelvic girdle to immobilize followed by a hail of gunfire aimed at the head. If a terrorist was mobile I would try and hide in an area where I would have the attacker near me but not focused on my location. For example behind an open door he may walk through, or behind an I beam near a stairway I could partially hide behind (I'm skinny, yay for me). This would put the attacker in very close proximity without a focus on me, that would allow for point blank range shot to the neck or head. That would be my goal. Hide in close proximity to allow for that high probability total CNS shut down hit.

With regards to the OP's actual question, speed is what defeats body armor, not size of projectile. It's basic physics really, you need to focus the most amount of force(energy) over the smallest area. A small projectile loaded to ridiculous velocities will do better than a heavier projectile.