Body armor defeating 9mm?

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Fivesense

New member
Last week I started a mini-firestorm on another forum by asking if the 5.7x45 was a good defensive/counter-attack round to use in a "Paris-like attack" scenario (contingent on having a 5.7-capable handgun as your carry piece). My takeaway from that very informative thread is that most are better off using a 9mm weapon (or something else in which we have confidence).

Today, as we learn the details of the shooting in San Bernadino, CA, I further consider my personal choice to carry a 9mm (G17 or G26). Given my decision to carry a 9mm (as well as a spare mag) at all times, I ponder what with which I will load my backup mag. My carry 9mm is a Hornady 135 gr. +P Critical Duty (or equivalent). After learning that the assailants in the San Bernadino shooting were wearing body armor, I'm considering what my backup mag should be loaded with- so that in a similar situation I could simply switch mags if I was forced to act with deadly retaliatory/self-defense force.

I'm not a keyboard commando, nor do I endeavor to be involved in such a situation. But I'm not an ostrich, and I will not put my head in the sand.

Therefore, what is the best, hottest, most-potentially-likely-to-defeat-body-armor 9mm? Or, is the best alternative to aim for the head (2 COM, 1 in the head)? For the purpose of this discussion, let's assume that we are not able to run for the nearest exit, and that we've made the decision to engage the bad guy shooter(s). Let's also assume that we are carrying, whether or not we are in the People's Republic of California.
 
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Independent George

New member
The answer is none (classification starts on page 17 of the .pdf, page 3 internally).

Body armor is graded based on the type of rounds it is designed to stop. The most common soft body armors on the market are level II or level IIA, both of which will stop a 9mm round.

Level IIA: 124 gr. 9mm up to 1225 ft/s, or 180 gr .40 S&W up to 1155 ft/s.
Level II: 124 gr. 9mm up to 1305 ft/s, or 158 gr. .357 magnum up to 1340 ft/s.

When you get to Level IIIA armor (the toughest soft armor available without hard inserts), it's rated to .44 magnum rounds.
 
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J

JohnKSa

Administrator
Ok, here's your scenario as I understand it.

Bad guy
  • Doesn't have to worry about the law.
  • Has backup.
  • Has body armor.
  • Can carry a rifle in addition to other weapons possibly including explosives.
  • May not plan to survive the attack and so has little or nothing to lose.

You
  • Have to worry about the law.
  • Don't have backup.
  • Don't have body armor.
  • Can carry a concealed pistol.
  • Want to survive.

Conclusion. You had better be really, really good and/or really, really lucky if you plan to win. If that were the scenario I wanted to prepare for, I'd be spending my time and money on range fees, practice ammo, a timer, targets and professional training, not trying to find magic bullets.
 
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ms6852

New member
If they are wearing body armor, I'm sure if you shoot them in the reproductive organs or in the vicinity, I'm quite sure you will have eliminated the threat as well as any future one from ever occurring from this particular person.
 
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Aguila Blanca

Staff
Bill DeShivs said:
The shooters were wearing tactical vests, which are "bulletproof vests" to sheeple.
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I'm still reading reports saying they were wearing "body armor." Maybe at some point there will be a photo showing what they were actually wearing.

To the OP: There's a reason why some tactical trainers advocate the Mozambique (two rounds to center mass, one round to head), THEN stop to assess).
 
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Jim Watson

New member
Sorry, Fivesense, American Commoners are not trusted with true armor piercing handgun ammunition.
Your only option is to learn pinpoint accuracy under stress and hit the uncovered areas.
 
S

Sequins

New member
I would recommend considering off body carrying a hunting caliber revolver in your EDC bag, it's what I'm considering. I am pretty sure .454 casull will drop one of these style of attackers from quite a few yards away. I expect if I'm ever on scene for a terror attack that I'll either be amongst the initial ambush victims felled immediately, or I'll have enough time to reach into my bag and get a shot off from some distance away. Unlike street crime I don't think draw speed will be a major factor in outcome so off body carrying a heavy duty backup is feasible.

Also not sure what the legality of manufacturing your own AP ammunition but it's something to look into. I know it's banned for import but maybe look into the practically of acquiring AP bullets or casting AP bullets and make some yourself. Generally speaking all "AP" means is that it's a heavier metal than lead (tungsten core round, etc). Thats the only way I can imagine getting 9mm to penetrate armor. If it's illegal don't do it of course, I wouldn't want to suggest breaking the law.
 
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cc-hangfire

New member
^^^^^^2 posts above, what Twister said. First, I am not trained or a professional responder in any way, so what I say only comes from reading & study.

Breaking the pelvic girdle will immobilize a human, or reduce them to crawling...it does not stop them from continuing to operate a firearm. Only a central nervous hit will stop that, or bleed out & loss of consciousness.

But as mentioned above, it's not a fight you'd be likely to win. Given the conditions provided in the OP, I'd add one more: you are in an inescapable and likely fatal position, and you have decided to die fighting rather than cowering.
 
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tipoc

New member
Law enforcement is wisely and unexpectedly keeping speculation and bits of info to themselves for now on the So. Cal shootings, so we don't know what the shooters were wearing. It's besides the point anyway for the question asked, which was what to do if an attacker is wearing body armor.

The answer is to shoot wear the armor isn't.

The hips, thighs, groin and buttocks are the biggest target and will often take someone out of the fight or limit their mobility. Head, shoulders are much harder to hit but also possible though not a first choice because, well, they are harder to hit then the larger less mobile exposed areas of the body. While the front and rear of the torso are protected the sides of the torso are much less so and have to be free of armor (or less heavily protected) to allow for movement, so this means they are vulnerable, but again a smaller target. In any of these areas a round that can break bone is handy...but then it always is.

As an exercise, whenever you see a group of fellas wearing actual armor, mentally examine where they are vulnerable and thus where you need to put a round. You can see the degree of difficulty involved. Assume your round and caliber of choice will not penetrate the armor. If it does penetrate some low rent "armor" well then that's for the good.

tipoc
 
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Xfire68

New member
When you get to Level IIIA armor (the toughest soft armor available without hard inserts), it's rated to .44 magnum rounds.
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Interesting seeing Level IIIA was defeated with a hot 50g 9mm round and Bulgarian surplus 7.62x25. I guess the slower heavy rounds the 44mag generally shoots would be stopped but I bet anyone that gets shot by a full magnum load is going to have some serious injuries regardless of if the projectile makes it through.
 
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AK103K

New member
As I said in your other thread, at closer ranges, dont waste time or energy on body shots, head shots only. Only answer to a quick solution.
 
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Kosh75287

New member
Bad guy
Doesn't have to worry about the law.
Has backup.
Has body armor.
Can carry a rifle [ + ] other weapons possibly including explosives.
May not plan to survive the attack and so has little or nothing to lose.

You
Have to worry about the law.
Don't have backup.
Don't have body armor.
Can carry a concealed pistol.
Want to survive.
Click to expand...

S'funny. I see it differently.

Bad guy with gun
Doesn't have to worry about the law. IS obligated to observe the law, but has tossed that aside, making him a problem to all he seeks to harm until the REAL "Serve & Protect" people arrive.
Has backup. MAY have backup I presume this means an auxiliary weapon. With or without backup, your objective is to render him incapable of continuing his attack WITH ANYTHING. If "backup" refers to other aggressors, it's your objective to render THEM incapable of continuing the attack, also.
Has body armour. MAY have body armour. You may not know until someone shoots him C.O.M. If a hit there doesn't drop him, it's headshot time.
Can carry a rifle At conversational (indoor) distances, the advantage isn't dramatic. Whether the aggressor carries a zipgun or an RPG, YOUR objective remains the same. Render them incapable of using ANYTHING.
May not plan to survive the attack...has little or nothing to lose. People who are resigned to death tend to be less tenacious than those resolved to survive. THEY want to murder a lot of people and eventually quit/be stopped. YOU want to keep them from murdering YOU, so you can live.

GOOD guy with gun
Have to worry about the law. You ARE obligated to obey the law, but when the aggressor opens fire, the law of necessity usually prevails. In any case, one must survive the confrontation to be persecuted/prosecuted, even in the People's Republic of Kalifornia.
Don't have backup. Again, depends on definition, but no law says you're not allowed to. But if a larger more powerful weapon has failed to solve the problem, it's hard for me to imagine a smaller, less powerful one doing so. If someone else who you trust is there and armed, life just got much easier for everyone but the aggressors.
Don't have body armor. Why not? Is there a law against THAT in PRK? if you are wearing a firearm, why are you not wearing body armour?
Can carry a concealed pistol. Since Kalifornia is NOT a "shall issue" state, you probably can't, but let's assume you CAN. After the first shot is fired, everyone in the room knows the aggressor is armed. Until YOU fire, nobody, including the aggressor, knows you are armed (unless you've been foolish about it). Use THAT to your advantage. If you can get closer, GET CLOSER. If you can get steadier, GET STEADIER.
Want to survive. Well, let's HOPE so, or your being armed is pretty pointless. YOUR initiative is greater than THEIR initiative, or it certainly SHOULD be. If not, re-examine your reasons for being armed.

Skills development is AN important element of surviving such a crisis, but not the ONLY one. Advanced planning is another. Think, in cool and dispassionate terms, "What if...", and devise some plausible strategy for dealing with the emergency that you ponder.
Patton was right. The worst plan, executed quickly, is often better than the best plan, executed too late.

If carrying ammunition that defeats Level II/IIa body armor makes you more confident (and doesn't lower your ability to hit), then carry it. But don't consider yourself already defeated if the creeps are wearing body armour and you don't have AP rounds in your pistol. It ain't NEARLY the case, unless you LET it be.

Practice a lot. But don't STOP at practicing. Ponder, plan, prepare.
 
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JohnKSa

Administrator
MAY have backup...MAY have body armour.
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The OP's comment was about a "paris-style attack". In those attacks, the attackers wore body armor and came in groups. Backup was another attacker.
At conversational (indoor) distances, the advantage isn't dramatic.
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The advantage is tremendous.

1. A person who knows what they are doing can fire from the hip with a rifle and be effective at significant distances. Even a very skilled person with a handgun won't be that good. When the sights are employed, the difference becomes even more significant. Besides, this is predicated on a "paris-style attack" some of which happened indoors in large venues and some of which happened outdoors. So the idea that this will all take place at "conversational distances" isn't consistent with the scenario the OP was talking about.

2. The lethality of a long gun is typically about 80% while the lethality of a handgun is typically about 20%.

3. The type of rifles used in this type of attack have a typical capacity that is 3 to 4 times greater than a typical concealed handgun.
You ARE obligated to obey the law, but when the aggressor opens fire, the law of necessity usually prevails.
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My point was that you don't get to carry around hand grenades and explosives and may be limited in terms of your legal ability to openly carry weapons.
Again, depends on definition, but no law says you're not allowed to.
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As before, the comment was about having someone available to back you up. You will likely be alone--unlikely to have someone on hand who is armed and able to provide backup.
Why not?
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Unless you know when the attack is happening, you'd have to wear it all the time. If you want to, you're welcome to. If you want to and actually do, I'd estimate that puts you in the 0.000001% of the non-LEO civilian population that wears body armor all the time in public.
Since Kalifornia is NOT a "shall issue" state, you probably can't, but let's assume you CAN.
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The point is that at best, you may have a concealed handgun. You almost certainly won't have multiple weapons or a rifle immediately available.
Skills development is AN important element of surviving such a crisis, but not the ONLY one. Advanced planning is another. Think, in cool and dispassionate terms, "What if...", and devise some plausible strategy for dealing with the emergency that you ponder.
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Training will help you develop a strategy. Besides, the main point was that given the scenario described, software (training/strategy/skills) will be more of a factor than hardware (magic bullets).
 
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Kosh75287

New member
A person who knows what they are doing can fire from the hip with a rifle and be effective at significant distances. Even a very skilled person with a handgun won't be that good. When the sights are employed, the difference becomes even more significant.
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The aggressor's goal is to inflict MANY casualties. The defender's goal is to inflict one or a few, as many as are required to stop the attack. If the defender is too distant to engage, then they are probably distant enough to escape or evade, in which case rifle vs. pistol becomes a non- or lesser issue.

3. The type of rifles used in this type of attack have a typical capacity that is 3 to 4 times greater than a typical concealed handgun.
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MORE like 2 to 3 times AS great. A Cz75 holds 17 to 20 rounds, while a P-35 holds 14 to 17. Except perhaps for an RPK or an M249, I'm not acquainted with battle carbines with capacities ranging from 42 (3 times 14) to 80 (4 times 20) rounds. 30 rounds is more the norm, which isn't trivial, but neither is it cataclysmic. They DO have to reload. As a defender, you must pick your moment. The defender who tries to match the aggressor's volume of fire is probably doomed, but the defender is rarely damned to this tactic alone.

The point is that at best, you may have a concealed handgun. You almost certainly won't have multiple weapons or a rifle immediately available.
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Not initially, but if escape or evasion is not an option, kill a creep and take HIS rifle (or grenades, or explosives), and pour the grief back on him and his fellow creeps. It isn't that hard, or it would happen far less often than it does. The point is THINK IN ADVANCE about what to do, and focus on completing the task, once the festivities begin.

I'd estimate that puts you in the 0.000001% of the non-LEO civilian population that wears body armor all the time in public
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.

If a civilian wears body armor only half the time he's in public, he's already reduced his odds of sustaining a GSW by half. If he wears it more than that, the odds diminish correspondingly. SOMEtimes, random factors DO operate in favor of the good guys.

And how, exactly did you arrive at that "0.000001%" estimate? Did you just hold down your "0" key until your finger got tired, then quit? Or was this estimate arrived through the same mathematical aplomb that you displayed in your estimate of long-arm magazine capacities?

I'd be spending my time and money on range fees, practice ammo, a timer, targets and professional training, not trying to find magic bullets.
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You might survive by attending to your own arbitrary subset of the above, but the prudent move would be to consider ALL aspects mentioned. One may STILL not survive, but the odds of survival would seem much better.

GOSH, that was fun!
 
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