Bought some BT in 45 ACP once and set them on the shelf. Then, after the media frenzy and recall, made a tidy profit on them. Now I have a box of the discontinued Taurus loading with the Barnes all copper bullets setting on the shelf. Probably could sell them at a profit too. Progress marches on, and all kinds of new loads have superseded the BT for SD.
Black Talon Equivalent
- Thread starter TheNatureBoy
- Start date
There's still places that have it in stock, same price as any other premium defense load, $15-$18 for a box of 20. PMC cranked out a lot before they folded. It's well-liked, but I doubt the price will go up much because, as I said, the Taurus Hex and Cor-Bon DPX use the same Barnes bullet.
Old Technology or not the Hydrashoks work and I have 100% faith that they will perform if I plant them correctly. Forget all the hype and terminology of the new "supper bullets" as I said before I have seen them perform over and over again in 150-250lb Whitetail deer. I suggest some of you do the same with your SD rounds. I'll stick with what I know works old school or not.
NCHornet
But the old school design doesn't do much better than a FMJ through heavy clothing. In test after test the cavity clogs up and they fail to expand. I still have several boxes of them in my ammo locker but consider them strictly a summertime round, and even then it's not my first choice.
Correct they work wonders if your attacker is lightly dressed or (pardon the pun) 'buck' naked.
But the old school design doesn't do much better than a FMJ through heavy clothing. In test after test the cavity clogs up and they fail to expand. I still have several boxes of them in my ammo locker but consider them strictly a summertime round, and even then it's not my first choice.
In all fairness, those pictures are out of a 3" derringer impacting at <800fps. According to Federal's ballistics charts, out of a 5" barrel, the velocity is 824fps even at 100 yards.
Knock the bullet weight down to their 165gr bullet, and you've got 912fps at 100yds. To go to the opposite extreme from the derringer, here's the HS out of a carbine. I'd say pretty respectable expansion through denim.
These tests in bare gelatin show .711 expanded diameter out of a 5" barrel - with more penetration and expansion than the 230gr GD.
Not trying to fan the flames, but let's not pretend the HS are useless.
Knock the bullet weight down to their 165gr bullet, and you've got 912fps at 100yds. To go to the opposite extreme from the derringer, here's the HS out of a carbine. I'd say pretty respectable expansion through denim.
These tests in bare gelatin show .711 expanded diameter out of a 5" barrel - with more penetration and expansion than the 230gr GD.
Not trying to fan the flames, but let's not pretend the HS are useless.
CarbineCaleb
New member
I do believe that's right, and the Federal Barnes Expander handgun cartridges also use it (the Barnes XPB). The info is right on the Barnes website:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/loaded-ammunition/
WhiteFeather93
New member
They took it off the market because of its name. It wasn't that the bullet did anything different than most SD rounds but the name was used in court cases to make the shooter appear to be a warped individual.
http://www.thegunzone.com/black-talon.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon
The controversy over Black Talon took place in an era when the public was largely uninformed about the reality of the new bullet technology. To complicate matters, sentiment was already being heavily influenced by the efforts of anti-gun organizations such as Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI). The issue blew into a firestorm, with HCI, the media, and even some members of law enforcement vilifying the rounds and inflaming the public quoting statements from a Houston, Texas Emergency Room surgeon referring to the rounds as "being designed to explode inside a person like a thousand razor blades," with "most people having almost no chance of survival."
Winchester's "Black Talon" product name was eventually used against them. After a high profile shooting at 101 California Street, San Francisco in 1993, media response against Winchester was brutal. "This bullet kills you better", says one report; "its six razorlike claws unfold on impact, expanding to nearly three times the bullet's diameter"[1] – a gross exaggeration of the actual performance.[2] A concern was raised by the American College of Emergency Physicians, that the sharp edges of the jacket could penetrate surgical gloves, and increase the risk of blood borne infections being transmitted to medical personnel treating the gunshot wound. While possible, there are no recorded cases of such an infection occurring in relation to the Black Talon bullets.[3]
That is why the ended production. The name made it seem like a scary cop killing over penatrating apocolyptic doom unleashed upon humanity and available to non leo's like yourself.
Althought I only caution do as you will. Ask any lawyer, judge, public defender, cop, sharrif, or anyone who has been in court for self defense and they will all echo against the dangers of using handloads for self defense. There have been cases against cases of people being hung in front of a jury for using handloads. Just a friendly caution...
If you dudes want to know about the Black Talon / Ranger SXT / Ranger T line, then have a look on the IAA forum:
http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=767&highlight=#767
http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=767&highlight=#767
New Talons are easily available
In its heyday a dozen years ago, the Black Talon was arguably the best commercial load available. A lot of hype and mystique has cropped up around the Talon; just a few weeks ago I was channel-surfing and caught a program on the Discovery Military Channel titled, I believe, "The Ultimate Bullet." It was a ridiculously poorly-researched program, I counted something like 30 factual errors in the 25-minute show. It stated that "The Ranger Talon is today's ultimate bullet, bar none." That's extreme B.S.
The new Ranger Talon law enforcement/military cartridges are substantially-improved versions of the old Black Talon. Winchester also has a civilian version of the Ranger Talon they call the Supreme SXT, sold in 20-round boxes at a pretty price. The LE-only versions are a bit ballistically superior to the civvie SXT.
Although Winchester limits their sales to Law Enforcement agencies and suppliers only, that's just a company policy and it's not illegal to buy or sell them as civilians. Law Enforcement Ranger Talons in 50-round boxes are available at very reasonable prices from several sources--Ammunition To Go has many selections of the Ranger Talon in 9mm and 45 ACP, and so I believe does Streichers. Other LE-only ammo such as the Federal Tactical series is also available through these on-line stores.
My own 9mm carry ammo is the Talon 127gr +P+--it's quite accurate, penetrates deeply, expands dramatically and produces a Magnum-level blast for deterrent effect...however, the recoil is suprisingly light, recovery time is quick and rapid follow-up shots are no problem with my Sig P226. Because of its high pressure load, Winchester published data that it should only be used in a few specific pistols--I believe they specified full-size Sig Sauer, Glock and Beretta 9mm's, and no others. These weapons are the makes most frequently used by various special military units and police SWAT teams, and perhaps Winchester simply didn't bother to test the +P+ round with other weapons. Springfield, Colt and others produce all-metal 9mm pistols with strong actions and I don't doubt that the hot load is perfectly safe in them...however, I would not fire it in a compact or polymer-frame 9mm, just to be on the safe side.
While the new-generation Ranger Talon is an excellent cartridge, many cartridges on today's market equal or surpass it in some regards. The LE-only Federal Tactical HST is another outstanding defensive round. Federal has posted several ballistics reports on their LE website directly comparing the Tactical HST to the Ranger Talon, and in terms of overall consistency the HST might be superior--it has superior bonding and in various tests the Talons suffered from core/jacket separations more often than the HST's.
Other outstanding cartridges are the Gold Dot Hollow Point loads from Double Tap (these are much hotter than the Speer factory Gold Dots). I've tried half a dozen types and calibers of Double Tap ammo, and it's all very high quality stuff with serious poop.
A number of cartridges on the market employ the excellent Hornady XTP bullet--while Hornady's own factory loads are okay, I greatly prefer the hotter Black Hills XTP ammo (Black Hills doesn't mention in their ads that they use Hornady XTP bullets, I assume for legal reasons, but most of their JHP's are in fact Hornady-manufactured XTP projectiles).
The latest ammo buzz is the recently-introduced Corbon DPX series, which propels a light Barnes X solid copper HP at high speed and produces excellent bullet energy, deep penetration and dramatic expansion. These may turn out to be the best choice available, especially for compact weapons.
Both the Gold Dot and the XTP have bonded construction eliminating core/jacket separation (the primary cause of bullet failure). The Corbon Barnes X is solid copper and needs no bonding. Although the folks at Federal/Speer have devoted a lot of time to dissing their only competition for law enforcement ammo (Winchester's Ranger Talons), I haven't found much supporting data for their field testing information claiming numerous coore/jacket separations with the Talon. All of the problems Federal found with the Talon occurred in barrier penetration testing such as auto glass, wallboard and steel, though police forces and private citizens who've used Talons for years mention no comparable problems. Still, the tests were conducted in controlled studies with police departments in Portland, Tacoma and San Diego and can't be entirely discounted.
Another cartridge that belongs in this list is the Remington Golden Saber.
All of the rounds I've mentioned have outstanding terminal performance and serve well for personal defense. Picking between them is mostly a matter of personal preference and which ammo diet your weapon prefers. To buy the good stuff you needn't go further than AmmoToGo http://ammunitiontogo.com Double Tap http://www.doubletapammo.com Streichers http://www.streichers.com or Midway for Black Hills XTP, Golden Saber and DPX http://www.midwayusa.com. Corbon ammo is also available direct from the company http://www.dakotaammo.net
Check out the law enforcement websites for Federal/Speer, Winchester and Corbon, they'll tell you much more:
http://www.le.atk.com
http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/catalog
http://www.dakotaammo.net
In its heyday a dozen years ago, the Black Talon was arguably the best commercial load available. A lot of hype and mystique has cropped up around the Talon; just a few weeks ago I was channel-surfing and caught a program on the Discovery Military Channel titled, I believe, "The Ultimate Bullet." It was a ridiculously poorly-researched program, I counted something like 30 factual errors in the 25-minute show. It stated that "The Ranger Talon is today's ultimate bullet, bar none." That's extreme B.S.
The new Ranger Talon law enforcement/military cartridges are substantially-improved versions of the old Black Talon. Winchester also has a civilian version of the Ranger Talon they call the Supreme SXT, sold in 20-round boxes at a pretty price. The LE-only versions are a bit ballistically superior to the civvie SXT.
Although Winchester limits their sales to Law Enforcement agencies and suppliers only, that's just a company policy and it's not illegal to buy or sell them as civilians. Law Enforcement Ranger Talons in 50-round boxes are available at very reasonable prices from several sources--Ammunition To Go has many selections of the Ranger Talon in 9mm and 45 ACP, and so I believe does Streichers. Other LE-only ammo such as the Federal Tactical series is also available through these on-line stores.
My own 9mm carry ammo is the Talon 127gr +P+--it's quite accurate, penetrates deeply, expands dramatically and produces a Magnum-level blast for deterrent effect...however, the recoil is suprisingly light, recovery time is quick and rapid follow-up shots are no problem with my Sig P226. Because of its high pressure load, Winchester published data that it should only be used in a few specific pistols--I believe they specified full-size Sig Sauer, Glock and Beretta 9mm's, and no others. These weapons are the makes most frequently used by various special military units and police SWAT teams, and perhaps Winchester simply didn't bother to test the +P+ round with other weapons. Springfield, Colt and others produce all-metal 9mm pistols with strong actions and I don't doubt that the hot load is perfectly safe in them...however, I would not fire it in a compact or polymer-frame 9mm, just to be on the safe side.
While the new-generation Ranger Talon is an excellent cartridge, many cartridges on today's market equal or surpass it in some regards. The LE-only Federal Tactical HST is another outstanding defensive round. Federal has posted several ballistics reports on their LE website directly comparing the Tactical HST to the Ranger Talon, and in terms of overall consistency the HST might be superior--it has superior bonding and in various tests the Talons suffered from core/jacket separations more often than the HST's.
Other outstanding cartridges are the Gold Dot Hollow Point loads from Double Tap (these are much hotter than the Speer factory Gold Dots). I've tried half a dozen types and calibers of Double Tap ammo, and it's all very high quality stuff with serious poop.
A number of cartridges on the market employ the excellent Hornady XTP bullet--while Hornady's own factory loads are okay, I greatly prefer the hotter Black Hills XTP ammo (Black Hills doesn't mention in their ads that they use Hornady XTP bullets, I assume for legal reasons, but most of their JHP's are in fact Hornady-manufactured XTP projectiles).
The latest ammo buzz is the recently-introduced Corbon DPX series, which propels a light Barnes X solid copper HP at high speed and produces excellent bullet energy, deep penetration and dramatic expansion. These may turn out to be the best choice available, especially for compact weapons.
Both the Gold Dot and the XTP have bonded construction eliminating core/jacket separation (the primary cause of bullet failure). The Corbon Barnes X is solid copper and needs no bonding. Although the folks at Federal/Speer have devoted a lot of time to dissing their only competition for law enforcement ammo (Winchester's Ranger Talons), I haven't found much supporting data for their field testing information claiming numerous coore/jacket separations with the Talon. All of the problems Federal found with the Talon occurred in barrier penetration testing such as auto glass, wallboard and steel, though police forces and private citizens who've used Talons for years mention no comparable problems. Still, the tests were conducted in controlled studies with police departments in Portland, Tacoma and San Diego and can't be entirely discounted.
Another cartridge that belongs in this list is the Remington Golden Saber.
All of the rounds I've mentioned have outstanding terminal performance and serve well for personal defense. Picking between them is mostly a matter of personal preference and which ammo diet your weapon prefers. To buy the good stuff you needn't go further than AmmoToGo http://ammunitiontogo.com Double Tap http://www.doubletapammo.com Streichers http://www.streichers.com or Midway for Black Hills XTP, Golden Saber and DPX http://www.midwayusa.com. Corbon ammo is also available direct from the company http://www.dakotaammo.net
Check out the law enforcement websites for Federal/Speer, Winchester and Corbon, they'll tell you much more:
http://www.le.atk.com
http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/catalog
http://www.dakotaammo.net
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This is what I got my wife to carry in her PT111, I also carry them in my 24/7 45, I use the Taurus HEX in my PT145
http://www.streichers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?Catalog=Guns and Ammo&Category=AMMO_DHAND&Prod=FC-9HST
http://www.streichers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?Catalog=Guns and Ammo&Category=AMMO_DHAND&Prod=FC-9HST
Huh?
Quote:
"As I recall both hydrashoks and goldensabers are both designed with "black talon" type engineering properties.
Speer Gold Dots too."
I'm unsure what you mean by this--hydra-shoks are a completely different design, with a lead center-post that enhances mushrooming, and their expanded shape bears no resemblance to the petal-shaped expansion that gave the Black Talon its name...they also lack the penetration of the Talon at equivalent velocities.
Gold Dots have bonded jackets while Talons do not, though their terminal performance is similar...I'm not sure about Golden Sabers, but to look at 'em they're a design unto themselves.
Whitefeather does a good job of relating the Black Talon saga in his post above. What made the original Black Talons unique, and the reason liberal types raised a ruckus that caused Winchester to take them off the market, was that the expanded bullet had triangular "teeth" that gave it a buzz-saw appearance and created a nasty wound channel compared to other ammo then available--this brought media heat down on Winchester after an emergency room physician was quoted regarding their inhumane wounding capability, and after a public statement by the College of Emergency Room Physicians added more fuel to the fire. Also they had a black Teflon coating--although this was only to reduce barrel fouling and provide smoother feeding in auto pistols, the media got hold of it and labelled them as "cop killers" under the idiotic impression that the Teflon gave them the miraculous capability to penetrate body armor (the same ridiculous reporting that claimed the first polymer frame Glocks were transparent to x-rays and could be smuggled onto planes avoiding airport detection). Winchester suffered nasty PR fallout as a result and voluntarily withdrew them from the market.
They were later quietly re-introduced without the sinister black "cop killer" Teflon coating, and Winchester further labelled them for use by law enforcement only (and still restricts their sale to law enforcement agencies and police suppliers) to avoid further negative press. There's no law to prevent civilians from buying or using them, it's just Winchester company policy. Re-named as the SXT Winchester has again make them available on the civilian market, although the LE-only versions are a bit hotter and available in more varieties.
I just dug out a partial box of original Black Talons I've had sitting around for a dozen years, and the bullet design is somewhat different than the new generation LE-only Ranger Talons...the cavity shape is different, though the expanded bullets look much the same. The new ones have better penetration, more uniform expansion and retain more of their weight than the originals.
At the time all this hype was going on most hollow-point handgun bullets were identical--they were just a copper-covered hunk of soft lead with a circular cavity drilled in the center. Compared to what's on the market today, their terminal performance was erratic and unpredictable. The Black Talon was one of the first specialty loads that performed way better than the generic JHP's which were pretty much identical whether made by Hornady, Speer, Winchester or other manufacturers. I was doing a lot of handgun reloading at that time and the only significant design differences in bullet designs from one company to another were the weights available to reloaders and the hardness of the lead core.
In any case, there's nothing magic or especially superior about the current Ranger Talons, they're a quality defensive load but so are many others; although I carry the 9mm +P+ 127gr Talons, it's only because my Sig P226 happens to like them. I'm probably switching soon to Double Tap 147gr Gold Dot HP's, as I prefer a heavier bullet in longer barrels and at 1135fps 421 ft/lb, the Double Taps penetrate 2" better than the 1240fps 440 ft/lb Ranger. The recoil and muzzle report is a bit less with the heavier, slower bullet, making for quicker follow-up shots. I'm also evaluating the Federal 147gr Tactical HST (which uniformly penetrates 15" and doubles its diameter, rather surprising since its muzzle energy is a mere 325lb).
The ballistics of the newer bullet designs are quite interesting, since bullet energy, speed and weight often don't reveal how a specific round will perform in tissue. Many 9mm shooters argue that faster and lighter bullets are the only thing that make the nine a viable defensive weapon, but if you look at actual testing data that's often not the case. In both 9mm and 45 ACP I prefer a heavier, slower bullet to any of the light near-Magnum-velocity rounds.
Anyhow, no big deal but I've fired them all, researched them all and examined fired rounds from them all, and I don't see much in common between the old Black Talon and the Hydra-Shok, Gold Dot and Golden Saber. Federal still sells the hell out of the Hydra-Shok and though it was an excellent choice a decade ago it's doesn't approach the performance of the new Ranger T or the Corbon, Black Hills, Buffalo Bore and Double Tap loads using Gold Dot, Hornady XTP or solid-copper Barnes X bullets (the Barnes is the only bullet I'll concede excels as a lighter weight/faster speed round...the only problem with 'em is they're so damned expensive I can't afford to practice).
Quote:
"As I recall both hydrashoks and goldensabers are both designed with "black talon" type engineering properties.
Speer Gold Dots too."
I'm unsure what you mean by this--hydra-shoks are a completely different design, with a lead center-post that enhances mushrooming, and their expanded shape bears no resemblance to the petal-shaped expansion that gave the Black Talon its name...they also lack the penetration of the Talon at equivalent velocities.
Gold Dots have bonded jackets while Talons do not, though their terminal performance is similar...I'm not sure about Golden Sabers, but to look at 'em they're a design unto themselves.
Whitefeather does a good job of relating the Black Talon saga in his post above. What made the original Black Talons unique, and the reason liberal types raised a ruckus that caused Winchester to take them off the market, was that the expanded bullet had triangular "teeth" that gave it a buzz-saw appearance and created a nasty wound channel compared to other ammo then available--this brought media heat down on Winchester after an emergency room physician was quoted regarding their inhumane wounding capability, and after a public statement by the College of Emergency Room Physicians added more fuel to the fire. Also they had a black Teflon coating--although this was only to reduce barrel fouling and provide smoother feeding in auto pistols, the media got hold of it and labelled them as "cop killers" under the idiotic impression that the Teflon gave them the miraculous capability to penetrate body armor (the same ridiculous reporting that claimed the first polymer frame Glocks were transparent to x-rays and could be smuggled onto planes avoiding airport detection). Winchester suffered nasty PR fallout as a result and voluntarily withdrew them from the market.
They were later quietly re-introduced without the sinister black "cop killer" Teflon coating, and Winchester further labelled them for use by law enforcement only (and still restricts their sale to law enforcement agencies and police suppliers) to avoid further negative press. There's no law to prevent civilians from buying or using them, it's just Winchester company policy. Re-named as the SXT Winchester has again make them available on the civilian market, although the LE-only versions are a bit hotter and available in more varieties.
I just dug out a partial box of original Black Talons I've had sitting around for a dozen years, and the bullet design is somewhat different than the new generation LE-only Ranger Talons...the cavity shape is different, though the expanded bullets look much the same. The new ones have better penetration, more uniform expansion and retain more of their weight than the originals.
At the time all this hype was going on most hollow-point handgun bullets were identical--they were just a copper-covered hunk of soft lead with a circular cavity drilled in the center. Compared to what's on the market today, their terminal performance was erratic and unpredictable. The Black Talon was one of the first specialty loads that performed way better than the generic JHP's which were pretty much identical whether made by Hornady, Speer, Winchester or other manufacturers. I was doing a lot of handgun reloading at that time and the only significant design differences in bullet designs from one company to another were the weights available to reloaders and the hardness of the lead core.
In any case, there's nothing magic or especially superior about the current Ranger Talons, they're a quality defensive load but so are many others; although I carry the 9mm +P+ 127gr Talons, it's only because my Sig P226 happens to like them. I'm probably switching soon to Double Tap 147gr Gold Dot HP's, as I prefer a heavier bullet in longer barrels and at 1135fps 421 ft/lb, the Double Taps penetrate 2" better than the 1240fps 440 ft/lb Ranger. The recoil and muzzle report is a bit less with the heavier, slower bullet, making for quicker follow-up shots. I'm also evaluating the Federal 147gr Tactical HST (which uniformly penetrates 15" and doubles its diameter, rather surprising since its muzzle energy is a mere 325lb).
The ballistics of the newer bullet designs are quite interesting, since bullet energy, speed and weight often don't reveal how a specific round will perform in tissue. Many 9mm shooters argue that faster and lighter bullets are the only thing that make the nine a viable defensive weapon, but if you look at actual testing data that's often not the case. In both 9mm and 45 ACP I prefer a heavier, slower bullet to any of the light near-Magnum-velocity rounds.
Anyhow, no big deal but I've fired them all, researched them all and examined fired rounds from them all, and I don't see much in common between the old Black Talon and the Hydra-Shok, Gold Dot and Golden Saber. Federal still sells the hell out of the Hydra-Shok and though it was an excellent choice a decade ago it's doesn't approach the performance of the new Ranger T or the Corbon, Black Hills, Buffalo Bore and Double Tap loads using Gold Dot, Hornady XTP or solid-copper Barnes X bullets (the Barnes is the only bullet I'll concede excels as a lighter weight/faster speed round...the only problem with 'em is they're so damned expensive I can't afford to practice).
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gordo_gun_guy
New member
Hs, Dpx
But in .45 ACP, FMJ performance is just peachy with me.
I do remain partial to the 230 gr HS in all my .45s (maybe because I've got a line on the 50 round LE boxes and stockpile the stuff), but I'm trying to budget the $$ to switch to DPX in 9mm, .38/.357 and .380.
BTW, anyone shoot the DPX 38 Super? If it performs as advertised in the Cor-bon cataglog (matching the infamous .357 mag 125 gr Federal 357B load of M&S fame) I'd consider investing in a classy single stack Super as a carry gun.
But in .45 ACP, FMJ performance is just peachy with me.
I do remain partial to the 230 gr HS in all my .45s (maybe because I've got a line on the 50 round LE boxes and stockpile the stuff), but I'm trying to budget the $$ to switch to DPX in 9mm, .38/.357 and .380.
BTW, anyone shoot the DPX 38 Super? If it performs as advertised in the Cor-bon cataglog (matching the infamous .357 mag 125 gr Federal 357B load of M&S fame) I'd consider investing in a classy single stack Super as a carry gun.
Another .380 shooter?
Jeez, I thought I was the only guy around who'd admit to packing a .380...a few months back I picked up a Bersa Thunder 380 and am still debating whether to keep it.
I have a number of full-size pistolas--a loaded Springfield 1911-A1 .45 ACP, another G.I. Springfield 1911, a 6" S&W M57 .41 Mag, a Sig P226 9mm, a match Ruger MKII, a much-modified CZ52 with switchable barrels for 9mm and 7.62 Toke (in handloads that provide .30 M1 Carbine velocities from a 5" pistol) plus a couple of antiques I don't care to fire.
Although I’ve had a concealed carry permit for years, I’ve only rarely felt the need to carry daily. Then 18 months ago a home burglary and rising crime in the area convinced me I need a gun that doesn't get left at home, so I went shopping for a lightweight snubby .38/357 or .44 Special. I somehow left the store with an S&W M60-15 .357—it's a 5-shot J-frame, but stainless steel with a 3” barrel, full-tang hammer and target sights--when push came to shove, I enjoy paper-punching and plinking too much to plop down major bucks for a 2” cannon that's no fun to own.
The 3" barrel produces higher bullet velocity, acceptable sighting radius and better ballistic accuracy; for me, the extra inch is the difference between point-blank fire at a close target or aimed fire at 25 feet. The steel frame tames the magnum recoil and makes it enjoyable to shoot; I love the gun and though it sometimes accompanies me around town, it's still too damned bulky and heavy for comfortable daily carry. I mostly pack it when camping, hiking and river rafting as protection from rattlesnakes, bear, Sasquatch and characters from the movie “Deliverance.” It'd probably be my one choice on a desert island...I've loaded it with everything from snakeshot to Buffalo Bore 170gr JHP and it's manageable even with the heavy stuff.
I then picked up a Springfield XD-9 Subcompact at a local gunshop in trade for a bunch of reloading equipment I hadn't used for years. I found it anything but subcompact, didn’t like the trigger and being old-fashioned I disliked the striker ignition…lacking a hammer, there’s no way to de-cock it and I wasn’t comfortable carrying a spring-loaded pistol with no manual safety pointed at my cojones all day long. I traded it away to a guy with a nice stainless Springfield 1911 who wanted something more compact...I was just opening my mouth to offer him $150 in addition to the XD-9 but he didn't give me the chance, he liked the 9mm a lot and traded me straight across
SO, I again visited my friendly local gun shop to look at other options. I didn’t want to spend a lot, so the compact nines from Walther, Sig, Glock etc. were out. I looked at an ultralight tiny KelTec nine but I hated the DA-only action, it didn't fit my hand at all and though it's said to be reliable, it handles like a BIC lighter.
Back at home, I did some research on 380’s and the next day purchased the Bersa Thunder for $205—it’s solid metal, SA/DA, has an exposed hammer and is reliable, comfortable and easy to aim with my large mitts. It tucks inside my belt and I forget it's there. Also, it actually has enough panache to generate some pride of ownership. With an alloy-frame snubby wheelgun or itsy-bitsy 9mm I knew I'd suffer through a 250-round break-in, wipe the blood off my hand and probably overlook the nasty sucker on future trips to the range.
I should know better than to risk my life with a ballistically-challenged pipsqueak pistol, but I'm hoping some of the newer ammo will serve adequately. I'm going to do my own tests...the 85gr Corbon DPX (1050fps/196 ft-lb) is said to penetrate 12" in gelatin, and I've also picked up some Double Tap 90gr Gold Dot HP (1100fps-242 ft/lb from the 3.5" Bersa); Double Tap 95gr hardball (1085fps/248 ft-lb); 95gr Ranger Talon (1000fps/207 ft-lb); 102gr Golden Saber (I don't have the numbers handy); Magtech +P 85gr JHP (1082fps/221 ft-lb); and some new ammo I just spotted, Magtech "First Defense" 77gr solid copper HP (1099fps/207 ft-lb). The Magtech solid copper stuff is their answer to Corbon DPX and 20 rounds runs $11, easier to digest than the $20 Corbon if it shows similar performance. It's also possible that after all's said and done I'll end up with hardball, wasting a lot of time and quite a few bucks invested in the different ammo.
I plan to test all rounds with wet-pack newspaper and water-filled milk cartons; while it's not the "gold standard" ballistic gelatin, I've got published gelatin penetration data on a couple of the rounds that'll provide some basis for comparison. I'll get some good data on expansion and if nothing else will learn how the loads compare to each other; I'm hopeful that the Double Tap GDHP and MagTech SCHP will provide penetration comparable to or better than the DPX. The +P Magtech Guardian Gold HP has nice numbers, but I came across a jpeg from someone else's test that showed zero expansion when fired into water.
If anyone's interested I'll report the results here after I get the chance to finish the tests.
Sorry to get so long-winded, I had nothing else going on tonight.
Jeez, I thought I was the only guy around who'd admit to packing a .380...a few months back I picked up a Bersa Thunder 380 and am still debating whether to keep it.
I have a number of full-size pistolas--a loaded Springfield 1911-A1 .45 ACP, another G.I. Springfield 1911, a 6" S&W M57 .41 Mag, a Sig P226 9mm, a match Ruger MKII, a much-modified CZ52 with switchable barrels for 9mm and 7.62 Toke (in handloads that provide .30 M1 Carbine velocities from a 5" pistol) plus a couple of antiques I don't care to fire.
Although I’ve had a concealed carry permit for years, I’ve only rarely felt the need to carry daily. Then 18 months ago a home burglary and rising crime in the area convinced me I need a gun that doesn't get left at home, so I went shopping for a lightweight snubby .38/357 or .44 Special. I somehow left the store with an S&W M60-15 .357—it's a 5-shot J-frame, but stainless steel with a 3” barrel, full-tang hammer and target sights--when push came to shove, I enjoy paper-punching and plinking too much to plop down major bucks for a 2” cannon that's no fun to own.
The 3" barrel produces higher bullet velocity, acceptable sighting radius and better ballistic accuracy; for me, the extra inch is the difference between point-blank fire at a close target or aimed fire at 25 feet. The steel frame tames the magnum recoil and makes it enjoyable to shoot; I love the gun and though it sometimes accompanies me around town, it's still too damned bulky and heavy for comfortable daily carry. I mostly pack it when camping, hiking and river rafting as protection from rattlesnakes, bear, Sasquatch and characters from the movie “Deliverance.” It'd probably be my one choice on a desert island...I've loaded it with everything from snakeshot to Buffalo Bore 170gr JHP and it's manageable even with the heavy stuff.
I then picked up a Springfield XD-9 Subcompact at a local gunshop in trade for a bunch of reloading equipment I hadn't used for years. I found it anything but subcompact, didn’t like the trigger and being old-fashioned I disliked the striker ignition…lacking a hammer, there’s no way to de-cock it and I wasn’t comfortable carrying a spring-loaded pistol with no manual safety pointed at my cojones all day long. I traded it away to a guy with a nice stainless Springfield 1911 who wanted something more compact...I was just opening my mouth to offer him $150 in addition to the XD-9 but he didn't give me the chance, he liked the 9mm a lot and traded me straight across
SO, I again visited my friendly local gun shop to look at other options. I didn’t want to spend a lot, so the compact nines from Walther, Sig, Glock etc. were out. I looked at an ultralight tiny KelTec nine but I hated the DA-only action, it didn't fit my hand at all and though it's said to be reliable, it handles like a BIC lighter.
Back at home, I did some research on 380’s and the next day purchased the Bersa Thunder for $205—it’s solid metal, SA/DA, has an exposed hammer and is reliable, comfortable and easy to aim with my large mitts. It tucks inside my belt and I forget it's there. Also, it actually has enough panache to generate some pride of ownership. With an alloy-frame snubby wheelgun or itsy-bitsy 9mm I knew I'd suffer through a 250-round break-in, wipe the blood off my hand and probably overlook the nasty sucker on future trips to the range.
I should know better than to risk my life with a ballistically-challenged pipsqueak pistol, but I'm hoping some of the newer ammo will serve adequately. I'm going to do my own tests...the 85gr Corbon DPX (1050fps/196 ft-lb) is said to penetrate 12" in gelatin, and I've also picked up some Double Tap 90gr Gold Dot HP (1100fps-242 ft/lb from the 3.5" Bersa); Double Tap 95gr hardball (1085fps/248 ft-lb); 95gr Ranger Talon (1000fps/207 ft-lb); 102gr Golden Saber (I don't have the numbers handy); Magtech +P 85gr JHP (1082fps/221 ft-lb); and some new ammo I just spotted, Magtech "First Defense" 77gr solid copper HP (1099fps/207 ft-lb). The Magtech solid copper stuff is their answer to Corbon DPX and 20 rounds runs $11, easier to digest than the $20 Corbon if it shows similar performance. It's also possible that after all's said and done I'll end up with hardball, wasting a lot of time and quite a few bucks invested in the different ammo.
I plan to test all rounds with wet-pack newspaper and water-filled milk cartons; while it's not the "gold standard" ballistic gelatin, I've got published gelatin penetration data on a couple of the rounds that'll provide some basis for comparison. I'll get some good data on expansion and if nothing else will learn how the loads compare to each other; I'm hopeful that the Double Tap GDHP and MagTech SCHP will provide penetration comparable to or better than the DPX. The +P Magtech Guardian Gold HP has nice numbers, but I came across a jpeg from someone else's test that showed zero expansion when fired into water.
If anyone's interested I'll report the results here after I get the chance to finish the tests.
Sorry to get so long-winded, I had nothing else going on tonight.
Because my SD handguns are all .45, my primary consideration in a SD round is functional reliability. If it will feed well then I am happy. That said, I prefer to carry PMC Starfire ammunition because of tested performance (by others of course) and the fact that it will feed in anything I have ever tried it in. I also like Hydroshocks and Gold Dots for the same reason. I will say that PMC has told me that they plan to resume production of the Starfire ammo in the near future but Winchester Ranger (I really want to try some) and Federal HST loads can be found now and for less money. If I were using a smaller caliber I would be more interested in maximum expansion/penetration/etc.
I shoot Corbon DPX in 9x23 Win. and 10mm and have been very impressed. I was surprised Corbon made this line of ammunition so extensive. Double Tap recently introduced a 10mm load that uses the Barnes XPB which I am very eager to try.
In .45 ACP, I really like the Ranger Bonded ammo. I think all of the Ranger offerings are highly effective but the Bonded line really seems to minimize the jacket seperation problems that some other bullets have experienced. To me, these are a superior design to the original Black Talons. While I have yet to try it myself, the Federal Tactical Bonded ammo looks good too.
In .45 ACP, I really like the Ranger Bonded ammo. I think all of the Ranger offerings are highly effective but the Bonded line really seems to minimize the jacket seperation problems that some other bullets have experienced. To me, these are a superior design to the original Black Talons. While I have yet to try it myself, the Federal Tactical Bonded ammo looks good too.
Feeding solutions for M14 Guy...
I have two .45's myself, both Springfield 1911-A1’s--one is a tight-tolerance match version, the other a basic GI model. Both have standard unramped barrels. I've never encountered feeding problems with either and have fed them many different types of ammo, from hardball to 230gr standard velocity HP's to +P 165 and 185gr loads.
I do a fair amount of custom riflesmithing, a self-taught hobby that turned into a paying sideline, and I’ve also serviced, rebuilt and accurized many pistols for myself and friends. If your 45’s are 1911’s, feeding problems are almost always due to: 1)Improperly adjusted magazines (requiring re-forming the magazine lips); 2) A rough or improperly-angled feed ramp/barrel chamfer; 3) Incorrect recoil spring weight; 4) Incorrect ejection timing caused by an ejector that’s too long or too short; or 5) Binding of the recoil spring on the guide rod.
Sometimes all that’s needed is a different magazine—I’ve had the best luck with Wilson Combat mags, which are built to careful tolerances and have a polymer follower that cures the final-round hang-ups sometimes occuring with flat followers. Simply polishing the feed ramp can also help greatly—I use a Dremel tool with a blue rubber abrasive-impregnated bit to bring the ramp to a mirror finish. Use light pressure and follow the existing angle of the ramp, the goal is to displace metal rather than remove it, and don’t go any further than polishing out any ridges or machine marks on the ramp.
You may be using a recoil spring that’s too heavy or too light—I’ve had good luck with 16.5lb variable-rate springs from Wolff or Wilson, they’re more tolerant of different loads than constant-rate springs; you might also try a 15.5lb or lighter spring. The proper spring strength is necessary not only for recoil control, it’s also critical for proper timing of the action, ensuring that the ejector clears each spent round, then reaches the rearward limit of its travel before resuming forward movement to strip the next round from magazine.
I assume you have a full-length guide rod that’s properly fitted—short guide rods or one that’s over-diameter can cause binding of the recoil spring. Another problem I’ve seen is slides that are too tightly fitted or roughly fitted—with these I fully strip the gun and lap in the slide/frame with water-based aluminum oxide abrasive until the contact is between the frame rails and the slide is smooth and friction free.
A weak point I’ve seen in some 1911’s is loose, excessive or improperly-angled spacing between the feeding ramp on the frame where it lines up with the chamfered edge of the barrel breach. For ultimate reliability in a carry weapon, you might want to consider a ramped barrel—this requires some minor machining of the frame for installation, but eliminates the gap between the feeding ramp and the breach because the feed ramp is part of the barrel itself.
I’ve put more than a thousand rounds through my match 1911 and about 500 rounds through my newer GI model, and have had no malfunctions since break-in that were due to the gun itself--all were traceable to inconsistent surplus ammo or a careless hold when my hand contacted the slide during recoil.
I know that some .45’s are finicky, but they needn’t be…I’d bet that your cycling problems are due to one of the issues I’ve mentioned and most likely can be easily corrected. When set up properly, a good 1911 should be 100 percent reliable, whether firing hardball, hollow-point, +P or standard ammo.
Maybe I’m preaching to the choir here—if so, please excuse me since I don’t want to sound patronizing. It’s just that from what you describe, something isn’t working like it should…one of my favorite things about my 1911’s is their ability to take a lickin’ and keep on tickin’ even when they’re dirty or fed a wide diet of ammo. It’s definitely best to set up the spring weight and action timing for the specific ammo you carry every day, but it should still be able to reliably cycle with whatever you choose to feed it (within reason—if you switch from hot 230gr +P to light subsonic rounds you might have problems, but that’s easily fixed by simply dropping in a lighter recoil spring).
I have two .45's myself, both Springfield 1911-A1’s--one is a tight-tolerance match version, the other a basic GI model. Both have standard unramped barrels. I've never encountered feeding problems with either and have fed them many different types of ammo, from hardball to 230gr standard velocity HP's to +P 165 and 185gr loads.
I do a fair amount of custom riflesmithing, a self-taught hobby that turned into a paying sideline, and I’ve also serviced, rebuilt and accurized many pistols for myself and friends. If your 45’s are 1911’s, feeding problems are almost always due to: 1)Improperly adjusted magazines (requiring re-forming the magazine lips); 2) A rough or improperly-angled feed ramp/barrel chamfer; 3) Incorrect recoil spring weight; 4) Incorrect ejection timing caused by an ejector that’s too long or too short; or 5) Binding of the recoil spring on the guide rod.
Sometimes all that’s needed is a different magazine—I’ve had the best luck with Wilson Combat mags, which are built to careful tolerances and have a polymer follower that cures the final-round hang-ups sometimes occuring with flat followers. Simply polishing the feed ramp can also help greatly—I use a Dremel tool with a blue rubber abrasive-impregnated bit to bring the ramp to a mirror finish. Use light pressure and follow the existing angle of the ramp, the goal is to displace metal rather than remove it, and don’t go any further than polishing out any ridges or machine marks on the ramp.
You may be using a recoil spring that’s too heavy or too light—I’ve had good luck with 16.5lb variable-rate springs from Wolff or Wilson, they’re more tolerant of different loads than constant-rate springs; you might also try a 15.5lb or lighter spring. The proper spring strength is necessary not only for recoil control, it’s also critical for proper timing of the action, ensuring that the ejector clears each spent round, then reaches the rearward limit of its travel before resuming forward movement to strip the next round from magazine.
I assume you have a full-length guide rod that’s properly fitted—short guide rods or one that’s over-diameter can cause binding of the recoil spring. Another problem I’ve seen is slides that are too tightly fitted or roughly fitted—with these I fully strip the gun and lap in the slide/frame with water-based aluminum oxide abrasive until the contact is between the frame rails and the slide is smooth and friction free.
A weak point I’ve seen in some 1911’s is loose, excessive or improperly-angled spacing between the feeding ramp on the frame where it lines up with the chamfered edge of the barrel breach. For ultimate reliability in a carry weapon, you might want to consider a ramped barrel—this requires some minor machining of the frame for installation, but eliminates the gap between the feeding ramp and the breach because the feed ramp is part of the barrel itself.
I’ve put more than a thousand rounds through my match 1911 and about 500 rounds through my newer GI model, and have had no malfunctions since break-in that were due to the gun itself--all were traceable to inconsistent surplus ammo or a careless hold when my hand contacted the slide during recoil.
I know that some .45’s are finicky, but they needn’t be…I’d bet that your cycling problems are due to one of the issues I’ve mentioned and most likely can be easily corrected. When set up properly, a good 1911 should be 100 percent reliable, whether firing hardball, hollow-point, +P or standard ammo.
Maybe I’m preaching to the choir here—if so, please excuse me since I don’t want to sound patronizing. It’s just that from what you describe, something isn’t working like it should…one of my favorite things about my 1911’s is their ability to take a lickin’ and keep on tickin’ even when they’re dirty or fed a wide diet of ammo. It’s definitely best to set up the spring weight and action timing for the specific ammo you carry every day, but it should still be able to reliably cycle with whatever you choose to feed it (within reason—if you switch from hot 230gr +P to light subsonic rounds you might have problems, but that’s easily fixed by simply dropping in a lighter recoil spring).
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Roscoe
I thank you for the very helpful tips. I always appreciate constructive input especially when it is based on experience.
I own a variety of 1911 pattern 45s ranging from bargain bin to full house custom. All of them (except two I have not tried yet) will currently feed virtually anything I can stuff in them courtesy of a very talented gunsmith nearby. The ammo selections I listed have demonstrated for me the ability to feed in virtually any 1911, modified or not. I will definitely hold on to your feeding solutions as I almost always buy my 1911s used and sometimes like to tinker with them myself. As for magazines, I use Wilson Combat almost exclusively (I do have a few Chip McCormick Shooting Star mags that also work well) even my Kimber Eclipse Target Custom Shop model gets fed from Wilsons. Believe it or not, despite their ads, I really don't like Kimber mags. I use Wolff springs exclusively and most of my guns get re-sprung as soon as they get home.
You are indeed preaching to the choir but you are in no way patronizing. As I said, I always appreciate the input of experience.
Thanks again for the helpful tips.
BTW the ammunitiontogo site currently has the 230gr HST on sale very reasonably priced and cheaperthandirt currently has 230gr Starfire for sale.
I thank you for the very helpful tips. I always appreciate constructive input especially when it is based on experience.
I own a variety of 1911 pattern 45s ranging from bargain bin to full house custom. All of them (except two I have not tried yet) will currently feed virtually anything I can stuff in them courtesy of a very talented gunsmith nearby. The ammo selections I listed have demonstrated for me the ability to feed in virtually any 1911, modified or not. I will definitely hold on to your feeding solutions as I almost always buy my 1911s used and sometimes like to tinker with them myself. As for magazines, I use Wilson Combat almost exclusively (I do have a few Chip McCormick Shooting Star mags that also work well) even my Kimber Eclipse Target Custom Shop model gets fed from Wilsons. Believe it or not, despite their ads, I really don't like Kimber mags. I use Wolff springs exclusively and most of my guns get re-sprung as soon as they get home.
You are indeed preaching to the choir but you are in no way patronizing. As I said, I always appreciate the input of experience.
Thanks again for the helpful tips.
BTW the ammunitiontogo site currently has the 230gr HST on sale very reasonably priced and cheaperthandirt currently has 230gr Starfire for sale.
Thanks for the tips...
As it happens, I just came across the 230gr HST at Ammo To Go yesterday and ordered a couple of boxes, but thanks for pointing it out. I've been using Ammo To Go for some time, their prices are usually excellent, though sometimes Streicher's has lower prices on one specific ammo or another. In addition to .45 I shoot 9mm, 357 Mag, 41 Mag, .380 and .22 pistol, as well as .223, .308 and 6.5x55 (Swedish) rifles, and it pays to shop around. Lately I've been ordering most all my ammo from either those two companies or Double-Tap, though sometimes Midway, Cheaper Than Dirt or Sportsman's Guide have better deals or offer specific loads I can't find elsewhere.
The great thing about Ammo to Go is their selection of LE-only stuff that's nearly impossible to find anyplace else; also, their prices on most of it are incredibly low considering that 50 rounds of .45 practice hardball costs $18 locally. I also confess to buying samples of some of their exotic products such as .45 White Headlight Tracers, Starburst, 12ga Flamethrower and 12ga flash/bang rounds,...yeah, it's silly Yayhoo stuff that gives other shooters a bad name, but my inner child enjoys wowing my buddies demonstrating cool pyrotechnic ammo.... My outdoor range club frowns on such things but I'm fortunate to live on the edge of a rural area and know a few isolated gravel pits for casual plinking and blowing stuff up. I mean, I don't make a habit of it or anything.
Like you, I've bought or traded for nearly all of my guns used...it's much more satisfying finding a nice lightly-used 1911 for $400 and spending another couple hundred customizing it into exactly what I want; I've got about $700 into my match Springfield and it would have run me two grand through a custom shop.
Best Regards,
As it happens, I just came across the 230gr HST at Ammo To Go yesterday and ordered a couple of boxes, but thanks for pointing it out. I've been using Ammo To Go for some time, their prices are usually excellent, though sometimes Streicher's has lower prices on one specific ammo or another. In addition to .45 I shoot 9mm, 357 Mag, 41 Mag, .380 and .22 pistol, as well as .223, .308 and 6.5x55 (Swedish) rifles, and it pays to shop around. Lately I've been ordering most all my ammo from either those two companies or Double-Tap, though sometimes Midway, Cheaper Than Dirt or Sportsman's Guide have better deals or offer specific loads I can't find elsewhere.
The great thing about Ammo to Go is their selection of LE-only stuff that's nearly impossible to find anyplace else; also, their prices on most of it are incredibly low considering that 50 rounds of .45 practice hardball costs $18 locally. I also confess to buying samples of some of their exotic products such as .45 White Headlight Tracers, Starburst, 12ga Flamethrower and 12ga flash/bang rounds,...yeah, it's silly Yayhoo stuff that gives other shooters a bad name, but my inner child enjoys wowing my buddies demonstrating cool pyrotechnic ammo.... My outdoor range club frowns on such things but I'm fortunate to live on the edge of a rural area and know a few isolated gravel pits for casual plinking and blowing stuff up. I mean, I don't make a habit of it or anything.
Like you, I've bought or traded for nearly all of my guns used...it's much more satisfying finding a nice lightly-used 1911 for $400 and spending another couple hundred customizing it into exactly what I want; I've got about $700 into my match Springfield and it would have run me two grand through a custom shop.
Best Regards,