Black Americans, the NRA and Guns

[Carry_24/7]

Excellent discussion, even though it's got a couple of mods on edge, and for good reason. But so far I think the thread is tracking correct. I'm black, a vet, and I'm normally the biggest 2A advocate within grenade blast radius wherever I go, no matter who the other folks are.

The reason why it's culturally hard as a black man to openly support organizations such as the NRA without getting rocks thrown at me by my own is because of negative stereotypes associated with the group, not reality. It's the same as with country music, it's "supposedly" for rednecks only (but I still don't like it anyway!). A lot of minorities view guns as bad because that's how their cousin, brother, neighbor, etc got killed by a gangbanger; and that's also what they hear from their local democratic politician because not too many republican politicians campaign in their neighborhoods (which is their current, greatest threat besides their own mouths), speaking the opposite of 2A.

I'm from a small town in Texas so I never grew up hearing any 2A negativity, but I'm one guy.

As some of the mods do point out from time to time, this cause would be helped if some here would drop the absolute "them liberals" "them democrats" stuff, cause there are "liberal democrats" everywhere that support 2A. Those labels and comment push them/us away. The republicans and Fox News lovers are not the only people here who love their guns. The typical "base" as a winning formula for almost anything is finished, 2A advocates have to reach out to the multitudes to be successful in the future.

I know, I know, the wrath of the mods cometh...

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The Wrath - nope.

We make that point repeatedly that for our purposes - you are pro or antigun and in fact there can be continuum of beliefs. You can state any of these as long as you stay rational and debate on the merits.

The RKBA has to be inclusive to survive.

 

[Knight cadet]

There are also plenty of white anti gun Republicans like Bill O'reilly and Chris Christie too.

 

[Skans]

There are also plenty of white anti gun Republicans like Bill O'reilly and Chris Christie too.

While I don't dispute this, I am hard pressed to find any diehard 2nd Amendment supporters in who are Democrat Senators. Or who are even Democrat House members. If I'm wrong, please I'd like to know which Democrats have helped sponsor any pro-2nd Amendment bills.


Ok, I'll help you out: One pro-gun Dem Senator: Jon Tester (MT); One pro-gun Dem House Member: Mike Ross (AR). That's it as far as I can see. On the other side of the isle, there are countless Senators and House members who support the 2nd Amendment rights. Actually, Mike Ross isn't there any longer - succeeded by Tom Cotton (Rep). Christie is as republican as Charlie Christ.

 

[Tom Servo]

While I don't dispute this, I am hard pressed to find any diehard 2nd Amendment supporters in who are Democrat Senators. Or who are even Democrat House members.

Consider Max Baucus, who holds a B rating. Despite some weirdness about "smart guns," he voted against the Manchin-Toomey amendment. You may recall that Manchin and Toomey are both Republicans, not Democrats.

In the House, there's Jim Matheson of Utah, who has a B+ rating and broke ranks with his party by voting to hold Attorney General Holder in contempt over the Fast & Furious debacle. Mike McIntyre of North Carolina holds an A rating, and Bill Owens of New York holds an A+ from the PVF.

There are others. These guys come to mind because they're all retiring this year. I wonder how many people actually took off the party blinders long enough to thank them for their support.

So let's knock that foolishness off. Now.

 

[tipoc]

I'm not so sure that looking at this as a D vs. R thing is clarifying. The objection many Blacks and Latinos (as well) have to joining the NRA, even when they are defenders of the 2nd amendment, is political but not always in a liberal vs. conservative framework.

It's not about the NRA having a few guest speakers or doing missionary work with us "inner city" types.

It's about the fights you fight and how you fight them.

Right now there is a danger of national lists of gun owners being developed in the aftermath of the Newtown shootings. The NRA is fighting this. But you do not hear them say:

"Look we don't want you gathering this information because you will likely use it against the American people as you have in the past. It's too much power in the hands of the government. This is the government that spied on Martin Luther King, gathered information on him and tried to blackmail him to stop his fighting them for civil and human rights. This is the government that has kept track and set up protestors in America who legally fought Apartheid in South Africa. This is the government that sent 110,000 Japanese Americans into internment camps during WWII and , by the way, took all their guns and made them sell their property. When Robert F. Williams set up a chapter on the NRA in 1950s Monroe, N.C. to defend Black folks against the KKK this government helped run him out of town and harassed him. And that's just a small part of the list of how they have used such lists against us. So we oppose their gathering and using this NSA data and national registration campaigns."

The NRA does not recall the rich history of the civil rights fight and how Americans defended themselves in the dark lonesome places against vigilantes and cops. Might embarrass some Senators.

But they don't argue along such lines as it would embarrass the right wing supporters and many liberals. It would win them working people though. They start defending all the Bill of Rights they will win friends.

Some don't understand why "Stand Your Ground" laws might make some folks, who for years had to fight gangs of vigilantes in their own cities and towns, nervous. Needs some thinking on.


tipoc

 

[44 AMP]

Tipoc, I believe you are right, but I don't think it would win many friends, or not enough to matter more than we already have.

The majority of people who don't already know guns in some positive light are very unlikely to overcome decades of indoctrination by the anti gun press & entertainment industry. No matter how much good civil rights work the NRA might do, I just don't think it would make a significant difference to most people who aren't already in our camp, or leaning that way.

Besides those out there who actively hate the gun ownership, there is a huge number of folks that just do not have anything in their lives that has ever given them a positive outlook on gun ownership, and another large number who only know what they have been "taught", that guns = bad.

Those who see the light, we welcome in fellowship. But our record of missionaries "converting the heathen" is abysmal. Only some kind of life experience will do that, either way. "the most staunch conservative law & order person is a liberal who has been mugged" Not entirely true, of course, but an accurate description of what sometimes happens.

And the other side of the coin plays, as well. Some of the most ardent anti-gun people are people who have had a gun play some part something bad in their lives. One fellow I once met, although seeming logical and rational, hated guns because his old man had been "blown away by a sawed off shotgun". I don't think he would have hated cars if his old man had been killed by a drunk driver, but hate is seldom rational.

 

[tipoc]

In the video the last two folks to speak are a young man and women both of whom defend the right to have firearms as tools of self defense and as tools in defense of rights. The woman says, paraphrase; "In this country given the history we have it'd be a struggle to get Black folks to give up their guns" the man explains that he supports the 2nd amendment and says why, "As an American I'm all for it".

Neither is friendly to the NRA. There is a good deal of ignorance expressed about the NRA in the video. Both defend the second amendment. There are a lot of folks of all backgrounds like them out there.

If you start with the fight to defend the right to bear arms and go forward from there, you can win allies in the course of that fight if you look for them and welcome them when you see them.

tipoc

 

[Armed_Chicagoan]

Some don't understand why "Stand Your Ground" laws might make some folks, who for years had to fight gangs of vigilantes in their own cities and towns, nervous. Needs some thinking on.

"Stand your ground" laws have nothing to do with vigilantism, it simply means you have no duty to retreat in the face of a threat to your life when you're engaged in legal activity.

I don't blame you for misunderstanding what it is, there's been lots and lots of misinformation spreading about what SYG laws actually do. As Mark Twain said "a lie goes around the world 3 rimes before the truth gets its pants on" or somesuch.

 

[Andy Blozinski]

I think the video shows that black people feel similarly to how we are viewing white people (or asians, latinos, etc) about 2nd amendment rights. It's mixed. People are people, it doesn't matter what your skin color is. I think the problem is a combination of a perception of it being otherwise, large scale alignments of political groups and a vocal portion not being able to see any grey political spectrum.
Despite the fact that the NRA represents what appeals to at least a portion of any major adult demographic, they have or are perceived to only be aligned on one side of this lack of grey. Some of the postings here display this. The large scale group that leans toward this one side has admittedly had a real problem appealing to minorities, even though they share many of the same views. Because of this alignment by the NRA, perceived or real, the appeal to minorities has been damaged by association in politics.