Binary Trigger . . . really?

[Double Naught Spy]

Blasting off rimfire supressed mag dumps does make you giggle but gets old (and expensive) quick. I dont have any desire to add a binary to any of my centerfire AR's.

And this is a big reason why these aren't very popular.

 

[Skans]

The idea one should be properly and fully trained to operate equipment is completely sound and valid.

However, when you use a system that looks like the usual but actually operates differently, proper training, understanding, and experience become vital to safety.

I worked for many years in an old chemical plant that used red and green lights to indicate the status of operating machinery (pumps and other things). HOWEVER, that plant had a standard completely opposite what people were used to.

Most things are made so that red indicates "stop" and green means "go". Or red means danger and green means safe. In that plant, a red light meant the pump was on, and running, (and therefore dangerous) and green meant "off".

New operators often thought in terms of traffic lights (red=stop green=go) and had to be carefully trained to remember (at all times!) that in that plant the lights meant just the opposite. This could (and did) result in some confusion. One system was very confusing to new people, an upgrade had been done and the new pump controllers on that system used red and green buttons that lit up. The manufacturer made it so the lights worked the usual way, but we had to have it reconfigured a bit to match the rest of the plant's standards. So what it turned out to be was that when you pressed the green button to start it, the red button lit up. And the green button lit up, when you pressed the red button to stop it. IF you understood it, and knew the why's behind it, it made sense, but, UNTIL you did, it was confusing.

Firearms use several different systems, some use lever up for safe some lever down. You have to learn to use what you are using correctly or its going to be a problem, potentially a very serious one.

There's nothing "wrong" with Binary triggers, but there is a different level of risk possible because they work so much differently than the usual triggers.

People who know how to properly operate the machinery are not the problem. People who think they do, can be. And this is a situation where even one moment of forgetfulness or inattention can result in an unintentional discharge. And while this is true in general with all guns with things that work in uncommon ways, the tolerance for mistakes is much smaller.

Put someone who just learned to drive in a formula one race car or a tractor trailer rig and they're going to have problems, because while they know how to drive, they are drastically undertrained for those very specialized vehicles.

As to the 86 Hughes amendment, as I understand it, it was intended to be a "poison pill" to kill the proposed FOPA, and there is still argument over if it was actually legally passed under the House rules. It was declared passed, and so was included in the FOPA. Reagan signed it into law, in order to do the most good for the most people accepting the bad so as not to lose the protections in the main bill.

Personally, I agree, it is an unacceptable infringement of a Constitutionally enumerated right. But unless Congress (and the Pres) create a law which repeals it, or a Supreme Court rules it unconstitutional, its what we're stuck with.

Yes, we are stuck with the Hughes Amendment. But, we are now also able to obtain binary triggers. I like that. I think it is a good thing, not a bad thing, and I enjoy shooting in binary mode. After doing a couple of expensive mag dumps simulating full-auto fire, I settled down to understand what the trigger is really good at - firing 2 shots on target in rapid succession, without having to "double-tap".

 

[Skans]

And this is a big reason why these aren't very popular.

Binary and Echo triggers are quite popular. Not sure where you are getting your information from?

 

[MarkCO]

Unlike the binary trigger and bump stocks, who's purpose is to simulate full auto fire, the release trigger was made with a specific sporting purpose in mind. Turned out to be a poor idea, but it had a degree of popularity among the live bird competition shooters for a while, back in the 50s-60s.

Um still has a degree of popularity, much more so than in the 1950s and 1960s, among trap shooters. I tried a release trigger, no thanks for me. Had a friend that tried one, dropped from 95+ out of a 100 on the trap range to the mid 80s. I think he went back to a standard trigger and still has not returned to prior form. But there are a few Trap guys that break 99 to 100 out of a hundred on a regular basis using them. Trap is about the only game they are used in with any amount of success.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Binary and Echo triggers are quite popular. Not sure where you are getting your information from?

Where are you getting information to the contrary?

They are so popular, people haven't even heard about them, right?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Binary and Echo triggers are quite popular. Not sure where you are getting your information from?

Where are you getting information to the contrary?

They are so popular, people haven't even heard about them, right?

I suspect this is one of those situations where they are very popular among the people with whom they are very popular.

 

[tex45acp]

I was never convinced of the need of the binary trigger system, until one of my customers asked me to install one on his 10/22 he used for informal steel plate and silhouette shooting. I saw him reduce the time it took him to "run the rack" on the plates and not have to pull, but only release the trigger to shoot the silhouette's. I have no need for one in any gun or caliber but i think the design is interesting.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I saw him reduce the time it took him to "run the rack" on the plates and not have to pull, but only release the trigger to shoot the silhouette's.

Would someone please enlighten me about something? I seem to remember reading that the BATFE has something called a "forced reset" trigger in their legal crosshairs. If you have a binary trigger, do they all reset automatically, or is it a forced reset if it resets automatically?

 

[Rob228]

Looks like a forced reset trigger uses a different shaped hammer that forces the trigger forward against your finger when it is re-cocked:

https://vimeo.com/486488684

The video has about two minutes of guys running around shooting really fast before it goes into the mechanical discussion of how it works.

 

[zukiphile]

If you have a binary trigger, do they all reset automatically, or is it a forced reset if it resets automatically?

The way I understand the binaries, nothing is forced. You can press the trigger and keep it back, firing only one round, and it behaves just like an ordinary, semi-automatic trigger that you haven't released. The difference is that when ever you let the trigger come forward, one second, one minute or one hour later, the hammer drops on the round in the chamber and it shoots.

 

[44 AMP]

My understanding is you get one pair of shots, from a single trigger pull and release and to shoot again, you have to pull the trigger again, and get the second shot on its release.

This is not the same as bump firing where it is the rifle movement assisting a second, rapid trigger pull.

I wouldn't want to see a binary trigger on anything that has more recoil than a .223 though.

I saw him reduce the time it took him to "run the rack" on the plates and not have to pull, but only release the trigger to shoot the silhouette's.

I'm curious about the accuracy of this statement. Not about the reduction of his time, but how can you release a trigger more than once without pulling it, more than once??

 

[Doc Intrepid]

I suspect he meant, when shooting a plate rack, pulling the trigger to fire at plate #1; transitioning to the next plate #2 then releasing the trigger; transitioning to #3 and pulling; transitioning to #4 then releasing; etc.

I can see how that might speed up your ability to clear the rack, presuming you work at it.

 

[Skans]

Where are you getting information to the contrary?

They are so popular, people haven't even heard about them, right?

Just look on Gunbroker and search for "Echo" or "Binary" - they are quite popular.

 

[stinkeypete]

Regarding shotguns that do not have disconnectors- the Ithaca Model 37 can be ‘slam fired’ since 1937 and still can be.

My 1946 action is so smooth that my hand pressure is enough to automatically pop the action. That, or I have done it enough years that it’s automatic for me.

If one doesn’t care about actually hitting anything, one can depress the trigger and cycling the action briskly would result in a shot on each end stroke. It’s the sort of nonsense they do in movies.

One can scratch their head and say “yeah but” all you want but I bet the ATF goes after Shockwaves a heck of a lot sooner than proper shotguns like the Model 37.

 

[JohnKSa]

I suspect this is one of those situations where they are very popular among the people with whom they are very popular.

Yup.

Just look on Gunbroker and search for "Echo" or "Binary" - they are quite popular.

First of all, Gunbroker is not exactly mainstream among gun owners. The people buying on Gunbroker likely aren't typical gun owners/buyers. The typical gun owner likely doesn't even know you can buy a gun online.

With that in mind, let's do your experiment.

Searching on binary AR trigger returns 168 hits.

Searching on AR trigger returns 10,000 hits, the maximum number of hits that Gunbroker will return on a search.

That suggests that binary AR triggers make up less than 1.7% of the total number of AR triggers for sale in Gunbroker. Maybe a lot less than 1.7% since we don't know how many more hits over 10,000 there were for AR triggers.

Let's try some of the same type of "research" but at some more mainstream sites.

Midway USA returns 0 results for binary but 1177 results for trigger.

Natchez Shooters Supply returns 9 hits for binary trigger but 1365 results for trigger.

Brownell's returns 8 hits for binary trigger but 1424 hits for trigger.

That comes out to less than half a percent of the hits for trigger relating to binary triggers.

 

[Road_Clam]

My FA binary functions as a normal trigger where the sear will lock the hammer if the trigger is pulled and held. Once you allow the trigger to return it trips the sear allowing the hammer to fall, while also allowing the condition of the hammer being "unblocked".

 

[berettaprofessor]

I wouldn't want to see a binary trigger on anything that has more recoil than a .223 though.

Since mine is on an AR lower, I tried it with 22LR, 223, and a 9mm upper. Right from the beginning, I could fire almost continuously with a 22lr, but had trouble maintaining a 223 or 9 fire rate. 2nd shot would bump my finger off the trigger, so I kept "double-taps" up, but no more. I concluded it would take some practice and haven't really tried again.

 

[44 AMP]

AR's seem to be the primary platform for the binary triggers, though mention has been made of their use in Ruger 10/22s

AR lower with a binary trigger would be versatile, think of the fun you could have with a binary trigger lower teamed with a .50 Beowulf upper!!

Thanks, no...not for me...

 

[Ricklin]

Thanks

Thanks 44 AMP for your above analysis of the popularity of the binary triggers.

They do seem to be a thing among the tacticool crowd, that's reason enough for me to avoid them.

 

[Paul B.]

"Regarding shotguns that do not have disconnectors- the Ithaca Model 37 can be ‘slam fired’ since 1937 and still can be."

IIRC, Ithaca made changes to the model 37 sometime in the late 1970s early 1980 so that they could no longer be "slam fired". After that, the only slam fire guns made were to law enforcement and military only. The only thing I'm not sure of is the time frame.

I did a google search and got the following of The High Road The time frame matches what I thought. See below.
Paul B.

I have an ol Ithaca Model-37 made in 1947. My cousin/shooting buddy/BFF has a newer Model-37 made,IIRC, in the late '80's. Mine has the slam fire feature, his doesn't. Does anybody know what year this was discontinued? Just curious. Thanks.

My -37 is smoother than his and is very tight. It doesn't have any blue left on it but it works perfect.
Ky Larry, Aug 1, 2015 #1

ABTOMAT
ABTOMAT
Member
Joined:Feb 23, 2006
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Location:USA
I want to say '76 or '78.