Binary Trigger . . . really?

[Prof Young]

Was at favorite LGS/range a few days ago and owner has a bunch of AR pistols hanging on the wall. Apparently these guns have a binary trigger meaning it fires once as you pull the trigger and once again as you release it. I didn't know such a thing existed. These guns had "select fire" meaning you can choose to shoot once per pull or twice per pull. Guy says it's almost as fast as full auto. I can't believe the gun grabbers haven't gone after this. (Shhhh, I'm not telling.)

Talk to me, I need an education here.

Prof Young

 

[FrankenMauser]

"...Single function of the trigger..."
Pull = one function
Release = one function

The ATF has been going after FRTs (Forced Reset Triggers) for a while now. Binaries won't be far behind.
They're re-interpreting definitions and even adding and removing words to craft the interpretations that they want, in order to achieve their goals.
ATF doesn't like them. FRTs are either "machine guns" according to the ATF (but not by the letter of the law), or in a very dirty grey area where no one knows if the ATF will or will not shoot your dog for owning one.

Binaries will be next.

 

[zukiphile]

Talk to me, I need an education here.

Frankenmauser is correct; they've been targeted and we can look to a future in which berms will be safe from having lead pumped into them twice as fast.

I don't believe the ATF has the authority to regulate these as they've attempted, but I dislike these things even more than I dislike bump stocks.

Bump stocks are just stupid. Anyone should be able to have them, but I think they are a gimmick. I see binary triggers as a products liability suit waiting to happen, not because they are defective if used as intended, but because the way they are intended to be used is contrary to the way almost all modern firearms operate.

A normal trigger fires when pressed and resets the hammer when released.
A binary trigger fires when pressed and fires when released. How is that not going to be a problem for someone?

Audi made a car about which just a few people said the car accelerated when they pressed the brake. Audi spent a lot of money on those stories.

I have no objection to select fire arms being sold over the counter at every shop and Mart, but binary triggers seem like a bad idea.

 

[44 AMP]

To add to your trigger education, there is also the "release trigger". That trigger does not fire when pulled, but fires when released.

Unlike the binary trigger and bump stocks, who's purpose is to simulate full auto fire, the release trigger was made with a specific sporting purpose in mind. Turned out to be a poor idea, but it had a degree of popularity among the live bird competition shooters for a while, back in the 50s-60s.

Think of it as a shotgun "race gun" modification. The idea was that it made the shooter a little faster. The shooter would line up on the trap, pull the trigger, hold it, then call for the bird to be released. Then all they had to do was get on the bird and release the trigger to fire. A very specialized thing with a very small application and HUGE safety risks everywhere else, since it worked opposite to every other gun trigger in the world.

The trick was tried, used by some (yes there were accidents) and essentially discarded as not providing any significant speed advantage and carrying tremendous safety risks.

The Binary trigger combines the concepts of both regular trigger and release trigger, and the purpose was not for competition, or defense, or hunting, it was for entertainment. Simply for the fun of being able to shoot something that simulated full auto fire but avoided the legal definition and regulation of being an actual machine gun.

Also, to be clear in the technical sense ,

These guns had "select fire" meaning you can choose to shoot once per pull or twice per pull

They are not "select fire" meaning semi or full auto fire, a more proper term would be "select trigger function" meaning regular or binary function of the trigger. The gun always fires in the legal mode of one shot from one function of the trigger, so is not a machine gun under the definition in LAW.

Selecting binary mode means the trigger fires when pulled, and again when released, and that is two separate functions, technically.

Its a can of worms and totally dependent on the specific legal definitions, and the ATF is and has been trying to craft regulations to control the device, and still comply with the actual law. As far as I know, they haven't been successful, YET, but that isn't stopping them.

Binary triggers do pose a significant safety risk if the shooter is not well trained to use them. Just telling someone how they work isn't enough to ensure safety.

Its a range toy, made for fun, and that's all it has to be. Having fun IS a valid purpose and use, in my book. Doesn't have any practical applications and is a risk in un/under trained hands, but that's not a good enough reason to outlaw them, as I see it. Doesn't stop killjoys from trying though...

 

[Rob228]

Unlike the binary trigger and bump stocks, who's purpose is to simulate full auto fire, the release trigger was made with a specific sporting purpose in mind. Turned out to be a poor idea, but it had a degree of popularity among the live bird competition shooters for a while, back in the 50s-60s.

I've also heard round the trap range that some people have used them to break themselves of a flinch.

As far as binary triggers go, not my personal cup of tea but I'd much rather have a three position safety on an AR equipped with one just to avoid any possible confusion as to what is going to happen when I pull (and release) the trigger than not.

 

[Shane Tuttle]

Audi made a car about which just a few people said the car accelerated when they pressed the brake. Audi spent a lot of money on those stories.

Is this what you're talking about? If so, it's been largely debunked. But I get your meaning.

https://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1020726_a-short-sad-history-of-so-called-sudden-acceleration

I have no objection to select fire arms being sold over the counter at every shop and Mart, but binary triggers seem like a bad idea.

For the instance you only need one round fired after pulling the trigger, using a binary trigger leads me to believe it's a really bad idea. We're responsible for every round fired and I don't see how you can stop the firearm from firing that second shot once the trigger is pulled and need to let off on the trigger. I'm not well educated on what binary triggers are out there and the features. Maybe there are some that provide an option to reset back to semi-auto while the trigger is pressed so it won't let off a second round. But it's extra steps I don't want to be concerned about.

In the end, individual rights are far more important than my personal feelings.

 

[stinkeypete]

Release triggers are still popular with top level clays shotgun competitors.

That’s an elite group of range shooters.

One of the problems is when a station fails to send a clay bird. The shooter has depressed the trigger yet needs to make the gun safe.

How that happens depends on trigger design and range rules.

Finding ways to defeat the intent of the NFA? Well, no one had been killed by a full auto weapon for many decades until someone with a bump stock killed what, 120 in one go?

Regulating machine guns worked until someone took a broad interpretation to the NFA.

 

[rickyrick]

I could be wrong, but I thought I had heard of people that had modified pump shotguns that fired upon completion of the pumping action... maybe the trigger had to be held

 

[BobCat45]

Dislike quoting Wikipedia, it is hardly an unimpeachable source, but I recalled something called "the north hollywood shootout" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout and looked it up.

In 1997 two bad guys robbed a bank and got into a gun fight with multiple police officers. The bad guys had semi-auto rifles modified to fire full auto.

From the Wikipedia page:

An inventory of the weapons used:[6]

A Bushmaster XM-15 converted illegally to fire full auto with two 100-round Beta Magazines
A Heckler & Koch HK-91 semi automatic rifle with several 30-round magazines[39]
A Beretta 92FS Inox with several magazines
Three different civilian-model Kalashnikov style rifles converted illegally to fire full auto with several 75- to 100-round drum magazines, as well as 30-round box magazines.

It was speculated during news reports that Phillips had legally purchased two of the Norinco Type 56s and then illegally converted them to full automatic. However, as Phillips was a convicted felon it was not possible for him to legally purchase firearms.[15][40][41]

That page claims that the police went to a nearby sporting goods store and obtained AR-15 rifles in an attempt to even things out a little, and I recall reading about that at the time.

Anyway, quite a few casualties and criminals using full-auto fire, in 1997.

Not sure of the relevance to this thread on binary triggers, but bad guys have full-auto when they want it. Been reading about the Glock "switch" they are importing that makes for full-auto fire. Kind of makes binary triggers and bump stocks seem like small potatoes.

 

[44 AMP]

but I thought I had heard of people that had modified pump shotguns that fired upon completion of the pumping action... maybe the trigger had to be held

I don't know why anyone would modify a shotgun that way. Some of the early pump shotguns did not have a disconnector. If you hold the trigger back and close the action, the gun will fire. The Winchester Model 12 is one of the most famous, and probably the most "modern" pump made without a disconnector. I'm not sure just when, (the experts can tell you) but somtime (I think) after WWII the model 12 was fitted with a disconnector.

I have a model 12 made in the 20s. It definately WILL fire if you hold the trigger back shut it. I've done it. It's cool but not a good idea because it is hard on the gun, and too much of it will result in battering and while the Model 12 is about as tough as anything made, you can reach a point where the damage renders the gun inoperable. Takes a LOT, but there are folks who did it.

 

[zukiphile]

Is this what you're talking about? If so, it's been largely debunked. But I get your meaning.

https://www.thecarconnection.com/new...n-acceleration

I'd go a step further and say those stories are impossible.

We're responsible for every round fired and I don't see how you can stop the firearm from firing that second shot once the trigger is pulled and need to let off on the trigger. I'm not well educated on what binary triggers are out there and the features. Maybe there are some that provide an option to reset back to semi-auto while the trigger is pressed so it won't let off a second round.

I recall that there is a way. For most people, their unconscious competence includes getting the finger off the trigger when you want firing to stop, the very opposite of a binary trigger.

But it's extra steps I don't want to be concerned about.

In the end, individual rights are far more important than my personal feelings.

Agreed on both. I've a brain and index finger with "press to shoot, don't touch if you don't want to shoot" tattooed onto it, and I'm too old for removal of that tattoo.

I'm not a fully automatic kind of fellow, but I'd not begrudge them to anyone else. I don't want the ATF to have additional authority here, and my opinion about binary triggers is my own - not a regulatory aspiration.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Was at favorite LGS/range a few days ago and owner has a bunch of AR pistols hanging on the wall. Apparently these guns have a binary trigger meaning it fires once as you pull the trigger and once again as you release it. I didn't know such a thing existed. These guns had "select fire" meaning you can choose to shoot once per pull or twice per pull. Guy says it's almost as fast as full auto. I can't believe the gun grabbers haven't gone after this. (Shhhh, I'm not telling.)

Select fire should be 3 rounds per trigger pull, not 2 -- and they aren't legal for us civilians to own. Who does your LGS sell those to? Unless previous poster are correct, and you're talking about a selector that switches from conventional semi-auto to binary semi-auto.

The BATFE is after binary triggers. Go back to the thread about the new BATFE regulations, find the link to the actual document, and read it.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Was at favorite LGS/range a few days ago and owner has a bunch of AR pistols hanging on the wall. Apparently these guns have a binary trigger meaning it fires once as you pull the trigger and once again as you release it. I didn't know such a thing existed. These guns had "select fire" meaning you can choose to shoot once per pull or twice per pull. Guy says it's almost as fast as full auto. I can't believe the gun grabbers haven't gone after this. (Shhhh, I'm not telling.)

Talk to me, I need an education here.

These have been around for a number of years and discussed here several times.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/search.php?searchid=11732813

There are a bunch of YouTube vids on them.

Gun grabbers haven't gone after these per se because unlike bump stocks, they apparently haven't been used in any mass shooting events, but as noted, they are a BATFE target.

The are as fast or faster than full depending on how fast you can pull the trigger and how slow the full auto is against which you want to compare. Then again, I have a video of a buddy of mine shooting a single stage AR15 trigger and emptying a mag at over 300 rounds per minute.

I have fired these on a few guns. IMHO, they suck. They largely perform as advertised, but sometimes they hiccup. While they might be okay to use, everyone I have seen use one general shoots TERRIBLE groups when trying to go quickly. More than once I have seen a person have a ND when they decided to stop shooting and let go of the trigger without resetting it first, discharging another round unintentionally.

Probably the reason you haven't heard more about them is because they suck, in general. They don't have much useful function beyond burning up a lot of ammo in shooting fast. They aren't really superior to anything a regular semi-auto can do except be a little easier to shoot faster and less accurately.

And you are correct about some (e.g., Franklin) being "select fire' where you can select between safe, single shot, and binary (instead of full auto on NFA guns). "Select-fire" is simply the ability to select between different modes of firing.

 

[44 AMP]

Select fire should be 3 rounds per trigger pull, not 2 --

no, sorry, that is not select fire, that is burst fire. A form of full auto fire automatically stopped by the mechanism after a certain round count has been fired.

Select fire refers to the user being able to select the mode of fire, between none(safe) semi auto and full auto by operating a control on the firearm. A switch, or button often but not always incorporated with the safety.

Burst fire capable weapons are machine guns under US law. They are legal to own by anyone who gets the required federal license. Getting the license is not simple, easy, or cheap but if you meet the requirements pay the fees and the tax AND live in a state that does not prohibit it, you can get the license.
Don't expect next day service, though...

 

[Skans]

I like Binary Triggers. I hope everyone has at least one AR with a Binary or Echo trigger.

The government had no right to make machine guns manufactured after 1986 illegal. So, anything that makes semi-autos work better than they do in their stock configuration is fine by me. To all you critics of these triggers - have you tried one? They are not only fun, but an excellent way to place two rapidly fired rounds on target. Even more effective than tri-burst in my opinion. Instead of one shot, you get 2 shots. They are no more of a liability than a semi-auto. You just have to learn to use it like you have to learn to use ALL GUNS.

 

[zukiphile]

I like Binary Triggers. I hope everyone has at least one AR with a Binary or Echo trigger.

The government had no right to make machine guns manufactured after 1986 illegal. So, anything that makes semi-autos work better than they do in their stock configuration is fine by me. To all you critics of these triggers - have you tried one?

I haven't, but if you enjoy them then I'm happy to hear it. Shooting faster isn't one of my goals or interests.

They are no more of a liability than a semi-auto. You just have to learn to use it like you have to learn to use ALL GUNS.

That's the tricky part. Could I ever unlearn press=shoot and "no shoot"="finger off"? That works on every firearm I've ever handled.

Do you remember the video maybe a decade ago in which a little girl was at one of these Las Vegas machine gun ranges, and the submachine gun she fired climbed right into her instructor's head? She did what came naturally, holding onto the bucking firearm, trigger included, even though she may not have wanted to fire.

I foresee an increased risk of an unintended discharge by someone who would release the trigger not foreseeing in that split second that it would cause a discharge.

 

[44 AMP]

The idea one should be properly and fully trained to operate equipment is completely sound and valid.

However, when you use a system that looks like the usual but actually operates differently, proper training, understanding, and experience become vital to safety.

I worked for many years in an old chemical plant that used red and green lights to indicate the status of operating machinery (pumps and other things). HOWEVER, that plant had a standard completely opposite what people were used to.

Most things are made so that red indicates "stop" and green means "go". Or red means danger and green means safe. In that plant, a red light meant the pump was on, and running, (and therefore dangerous) and green meant "off".

New operators often thought in terms of traffic lights (red=stop green=go) and had to be carefully trained to remember (at all times!) that in that plant the lights meant just the opposite. This could (and did) result in some confusion. One system was very confusing to new people, an upgrade had been done and the new pump controllers on that system used red and green buttons that lit up. The manufacturer made it so the lights worked the usual way, but we had to have it reconfigured a bit to match the rest of the plant's standards. So what it turned out to be was that when you pressed the green button to start it, the red button lit up. And the green button lit up, when you pressed the red button to stop it. IF you understood it, and knew the why's behind it, it made sense, but, UNTIL you did, it was confusing.

Firearms use several different systems, some use lever up for safe some lever down. You have to learn to use what you are using correctly or its going to be a problem, potentially a very serious one.

There's nothing "wrong" with Binary triggers, but there is a different level of risk possible because they work so much differently than the usual triggers.

People who know how to properly operate the machinery are not the problem. People who think they do, can be. And this is a situation where even one moment of forgetfulness or inattention can result in an unintentional discharge. And while this is true in general with all guns with things that work in uncommon ways, the tolerance for mistakes is much smaller.

Put someone who just learned to drive in a formula one race car or a tractor trailer rig and they're going to have problems, because while they know how to drive, they are drastically undertrained for those very specialized vehicles.

As to the 86 Hughes amendment, as I understand it, it was intended to be a "poison pill" to kill the proposed FOPA, and there is still argument over if it was actually legally passed under the House rules. It was declared passed, and so was included in the FOPA. Reagan signed it into law, in order to do the most good for the most people accepting the bad so as not to lose the protections in the main bill.

Personally, I agree, it is an unacceptable infringement of a Constitutionally enumerated right. But unless Congress (and the Pres) create a law which repeals it, or a Supreme Court rules it unconstitutional, its what we're stuck with.

 

[Rob228]

Most things are made so that red indicates "stop" and green means "go". Or red means danger and green means safe. In that plant, a red light meant the pump was on, and running, (and therefore dangerous) and green meant "off"

The Post Office credit card machines are set up like that. When you answer the question about liquids and hazardous materials the instinct is to press the green button to proceed with the transaction, but you have to press the red one stating that you don't have any liquids or hazardous items in the package.....

Maybe I'm crazy but if I ever did come to build an AR with a binary trigger I would make it look as distinctively different from my other two ARs as possible, possibly even texture the trigger as a constant reminder.

 

[berettaprofessor]

Its a range toy, made for fun, and that's all it has to be. Having fun IS a valid purpose and use, in my book. Doesn't have any practical applications and is a risk in un/under trained hands, but that's not a good enough reason to outlaw them, as I see it.

Thank you 44AMP! I'm in agreement with Skans....try them before you knock them!

Sorry, guys, I thought it was a stupid idea too...until I paired one with a 22LR upper and couldn't lose the smile for the next week. Sometimes one has to take a less serious moment and just enjoy life.

 

[Road_Clam]

I have a Tippmann M4-22 Elite suppressed, and installed the Franklin Armory binary trigger. I dont consider myself a mall ninja, but i was curious as to my steel plate speed proficiency using a binary. Its a very cool experience in certain circumstances. Blasting off rimfire supressed mag dumps does make you giggle but gets old (and expensive) quick. I dont have any desire to add a binary to any of my centerfire AR's.