Bhutto Dead

[thallub]

"If you think so lowly of this country, please move."

? Every citizen of this great country has the right to criticize his government. I spent over 20 years in the US Army and have absolutely no intention of going anywhere. Got wounded in another holy war nearly 40 years ago. I have paid my dues in blood, sweat and tears. Have you paid your dues or are you simply a cheerleader?

US Army
Retired M/Sgt.

 

[RDak]

Thallub: What was Bhutto like politically wise, etc., I don't know much about her?

 

[ZeroJunk]

What was Bhutto like politically wise, etc., I don't know much about her?

Good point. None of the rest of these guys do either, unless they are from the region. And even then with some of the half baked notions of what is going on in their own country , commentary about the intricacies of another is comical.

 

[thallub]

"Thallub: What was Bhutto like politically wise, etc., I don't know much about her?"

She was probably a socialist. She was a dedicated reformer who sincerely tried to bring Pakistan out of the dark ages. Yes, she was charged with "corruption" by the opposition. Every duly elected Pakistani leader has been accused of the same. Some have even been "tried" on fake charges of murder.

The father of Benazir Bhutto was Zulifar ali Bhutto, who took over the government after the civil war in East Pakistan. India intervened on the side of the rebels and East Pakistan became the independent country of Bangladesh.

Throughout much of it's history Pakistan has been without a Prime Minister.

"The office of Prime Minister was created when Pakistan gained independence in 1947. Originally, the Prime Minister was given executive powers, which were later reduced as the power of the Governor-General grew. The office was discontinued in 1958 and revived in 1973. The power of the Prime Minister's office peaked in the late 1990s, with the removal of institutional check and balances, and the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment and Fourteenth Amendments.

The first Prime Minister of Pakistan was Liaquat Ali Khan who was appointed to the position by the first Governor-General, Muhammmad Ali Jinnah. The office of Prime Minister continued until 1958. Many Prime Ministers were removed by the Head of State. In 1958 martial law was declared by Iskander Mirza, and the office of Prime Minister essentially disappeared until 1973. In 1973 a new constitution was written giving the Prime Minister executive power once again, and making Pakistan a Parliamentary system. The architect of that constitution, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, became the Prime Minister.

However, Bhutto was overthrown in 1977, and martial law declared again, with the office of Prime Minister being suspended until 1985 when Muhammad Khan Junejo was appointed by the newly elected National Assembly. This election also brought the eighth amendment to the 1973 constitution, and gave the President powers that balanced those of the Prime Minister. The President was now able to dismiss the Prime Minister and the National Assembly (effectively calling for new elections) without prior consultation with the Prime Minister."

When the Brits partitioned India they cobbled together a geographically divided and ethnically diverse Pakistan. The place was too unstable to exist peacefully from the outset.

"Good point. None of the rest of these guys do either, unless they are from the region. And even then with some of the half baked notions of what is going on in their own country , commentary about the intricacies of another is comical."

Good point. Have worked overseas with a lot of Pakistanis, unfortunately, you get wild and differing stories from the various ethnic groups. If you think Americans are passionate about politics, you ain't seen nothing yet until you get a Pakistani stirred up on the subject.

 

[ZeroJunk]

you get wild and differing stories from the various ethnic groups.

Exactly. They don't consider the artificial borders to define them at all, anywhere in the region. They define themselves by religion and ethnicity. And those relationships are too complex for the outsider looking in to truly grasp IMO.

 

[thallub]

"And those relationships are too complex for the outsider looking in to truly grasp IMO."

Much too complex for an outsider to understand. Folks who have lived among them for years do not understand. One thing that we westerners fail to grasp is the fact that these are tribal societies. There is the concept of family, tribe and maybe tribal coalition. There is no concept of country. Therefore, there is no concept of laws governing a country. Among tribal Muslims there is God's law and tribal law, that's it.

 

[DDude]

Prior to the Civil War I think Americans did have a grasp of the concept as people identified more with their states than they did as "Americans". Politics was local, community meant more. Today, there are folks in our neighborhoods we can go years without ever speaking to them.

 

[JaserST4]

thallub

? Every citizen of this great country has the right to criticize his government. I spent over 20 years in the US Army and have absolutely no intention of going anywhere. Got wounded in another holy war nearly 40 years ago. I have paid my dues in blood, sweat and tears. Have you paid your dues or are you simply a cheerleader?

Typical strawman response. No one questioned your right to complain. I was talking about the Blame America First crowd. You spent a career in the military and you blame the US for world events? If so, what was your motivation?

 

[dresden8]

It's easy to blame all the usual suspects in this one. Maybe in thirty years when all the cabinet papers are released we will learn what happened. (Is this a European thing or does it happen in America?)

Anyway, good luck to Pakistan, it's going to need it.

The big question is "If Pakistan goes down the drain who is going to move in and seize its nuclear weapons, the US or Russia? Who is hard enough or committed enough to do the job?"

 

[Mr. James]

Interior Ministry is reporting a post-mortem shows no injuries from gun shot wounds or blast - she killed herself ducking back into her vehicle.

by Rana Jawad
2 hours, 13 minutes ago

ISLAMABAD (AFP) - Pakistan's interior ministry said Friday that Benazir Bhutto was killed after smashing her head on her car's sunroof while trying to duck, and that no bullet or shrapnel was found inside her.

The ministry also said it had intercepted a phone call from a top Al-Qaeda figure congratulating a militant for the attack on her Thursday, and said there was "irrefutable evidence" the group was trying to destabilise the country.

Bhutto's death after a suicide bomber blew himself up at her campaign rally has plunged this nuclear-armed Islamic nation into turmoil, but the ministry said she would have lived if only she had stayed inside her car.

"If she had not come out of the vehicle, she would have been unhurt, as all the other occupants of the vehicle did not receive any injuries," ministry spokesman Brigadier Javed Cheema said.

He said the post-mortem on the populist opposition leader, whose funeral earlier Friday was attended by hundreds of thousands of mourners, found her mortal wound came when she tried to duck after the bomber attacked.

The bomber also apparently fired three times at her but missed, Cheema said.

When she ducked, she hit the lever of the sunroof of the car that was to speed her away from a campaign rally as she was gearing up to contest parliamentary elections set for January 8.

"The lever struck near her right ear and fractured her skull," Cheema said. "There was no bullet or metal shrapnel found in the injury."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071228/ts_afp/pakistanattacksbhuttoministry

 

[Bruxley]

You forgot India Dresden. They are still very much perceived as an enemy and an eminent threat in Pakistan. The intertwinings here are the makings of a Tom Clancy novel.

If we every again need to ask why it's in the interests of the US who possesses nuclear weapons let's remember this. A nation is about to erupt and the reigns of power are about to be up for grabs and this is happening with nuclear weapons up for grabs.

As for the culprit, Al Q/Taliban has the most to gain. Both Perez and Bhutto are adversaries and either prevailing in the upcoming election would have been bad news to them. The available living space in the world is decreasing for them.

Assassinating Bhutto will immediately put eyes on Perez thus taking him out of influence. A smart move except for the method. The weapon used and the subsequent detonation of a body worn bomb to kill Bhutto supporters is the tell on the culprit. Other then Islamic fascists types the willingness of someone to blow themselves up for a cause is untold. CIA et al isn't going to spend an operator and good luck getting that kind of cooperation from an asset. Making it look like AlQ/Taliban to taint their standing/influence is like fabricating missing child case to look like a pedophile committed the crime so that pedophiles will suffer a hit to their standing.

The unsophistication and suicide bombing, coupled with the question of who had the most to gain makes the Islamic Fascists top on the list. Further, Perez would have been SO obvious that to assassinate her would have been folly for him. The fallout from the event proves why.

The only other viable suspect MIGHT be the powers that be in the Pakistani Army. Bhutto had specific intent to take away their influence on politics and subordinate them. Perez wasn't a threat but also offered little benefit. The catch is the suicide bombing. Tough to get someone to do that for ya.

EDIT TO ADD: Seems the post put up while I was responding to Dresden Is revealing. Amazing that her hit her own head casing her own death.....wow.

 

[thallub]

"You spent a career in the military and you blame the US for world events?"

Wrong!!!

 

[STAGE 2]

Why use this thread to bash a woman who's had the courage to stand up against the militants and defend U.S. policy when no one else in the Muslim world would? Unlike many world leaders in the Middle East and here, Bhutto risked her life for her beliefs. She could have said the Hell with it and stay in exile in England - she chose to put her life on the line to help restore democracy to a fragile government knowing that it could get her killed. No leader is without critics - even Bush has been called a terrorist. I intend to remember Benizar Bhutto for the person she was and all that she tried to accomplish in her brief life.

Because I believe in intellectual honesty. Bhutto was corrupt. She has been charged in no less than 4 countries and already convicted in switzerland. Her lawyer has been charged several times over for nomey laundering and her husband has been charged with bribing french officials. Its one thing if there is a single event or a couple of flimsy charges. However in Bhuttos case there is a mountain of evidence, looked at by several different european governments, all who have reached the same conclusion. She was dirty.

As far as her standing up against the militants, when did she do that? While in power she sent funds to the taliban. Shes the daughter of a former PM who made it a practice to kill his political rivals. The apple didn't fall that far from the tree.

She was just as corrupt and just as power hungry as the people she was denouncing. The only difference between her and musharraf is that she wears lipstick.

 

[seeker_two]

ISLAMABAD (AFP) - Pakistan's interior ministry said Friday that Benazir Bhutto was killed after smashing her head on her car's sunroof while trying to duck, and that no bullet or shrapnel was found inside her.

Now I'm calling foul.....seems like the room full of suspects is getting more crowded....hope we have cooler heads in the region than they did in Europe 90 years ago....

 

[MikeinLA]

I am just SO tired of the entire Middle East.

Mike