Best intermediate rifle round and why

Which is the best intermediate rifle round?

  • 6.8 SPC

    Votes: 20 18.9%
  • .300 BLK

    Votes: 9 8.5%
  • 6.5 Grendel

    Votes: 15 14.2%
  • 7.62x40WT

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • .50 Beowulf

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • .458 SOCOM

    Votes: 4 3.8%
  • 7.62x39

    Votes: 18 17.0%
  • 5.45x39

    Votes: 2 1.9%
  • Other (please explain!)

    Votes: 37 34.9%

  • Total voters
    106
  • Poll closed .

603Country

New member
It's interesting to see what folks consider to be an 'intermediate' rifle round. The first thing that came to mind for me were rounds like the 243, the 257, and the 260. I think of 223's and 22-250's and 220's as small rifle rounds and I think of 270's and 30-06 type rounds as 'full sized'. I don't have any big magnums.

As for what the best intermediate round would be, using my scale, I'd go for the 260 (which I have), the 257, or the 6.5x55.
 

Bamashooter

New member
Im gonna say 6.5 creedmore if it qualifies. I hate the 7.62x39 round and I think the 300 blackout or whatever is a copy of 7.62x39 more or less.

The 6.5 creedmore can duplicate the trajectory of a 300 win mag with way less recoil.

.284'' bullets have very high BC. The case is just slightly longer than a 5.56x45 case, coming in at 48.8mm. AR-10 with less recoil than a .308 with better punch ( 140gr. bullet @ 2800fps ) than a .308. I dont get why this round hasnt caught on but it needs to.
 

BlueTrain

New member
Some of the cartridges mentioned in this thread came out before 1900. Did the Germans reinvent the wheel with the 7.9k? I think there were even others already around by 1930 that qualified as intermediate cartridges and they were even used in auto rifles. In fact the .30 carbine was pretty much the same thing as some. The Germans of course had their own development story to follow that had nothing to do with Winchester and apparently neither did Gene Stoner.

I'd be happy with a 9mm Luger chambered in a long gun.
 
7.9 x 40 mm. It was the original round for the Cetme before that gun was adapted to take the 7.62 mm NATO. The 7.9 x 40 mm was accurate out to three hundred yards and it was sustainable in full auto for close combat.
 

mapsjanhere

New member
Did the Germans reinvent the wheel with the 7.9k?
Pretty much. For the first time, a military deliberately decided to cut back on long range power (remember those 2000 yard front sides) and chose multi-shot close range power as the decisive property. And while there were older rounds in the same performance regime (like the 30-30), those were just steps on the way up in performance which in hindsight matched the 8 mm kurz, not cartridges developed expressively for that purposes.
 

Crow Hunter

New member
My response in red.

@Crow Hunter: See link above and consider the following.

1: These rounds are not much heavier... many of them are similar in weight to or lighter than AK-47 rounds. The important thing is that their marginal weight increase (which is very small) yields deadlier internal ballistic performance. All of the rounds that you have listed other than the 5.45X39 are heavier per round than the 5.56, to carry the same number of rounds, someone will have to carry more weight, or reduce the number of rounds carried.

2: These rounds do not recoil a very noticeable amount more than 5.56x45 (many of them akin to AK rounds or less). And, again, they offer better ballistic performance that doesn't rely on high velocities that 5.56x45 never reaches out of a 16", 14.7", or shorter barrel. I disagree significantly. Other than the 5.45, all of them recoil more, some substatially more than the 5.56. (Beowulf/Socom) I personally did a comparison of a lightweight HK416 with a 10.5 bbl to a Milled Hungarian AK. At 25 yards with the happy switch set to Rock & Roll, at best I could keep 3 rounds on a person sized target with the AK, with the much lighter 416 I could keep 10 to 15 rounds on the target in one burst. Within 8 rounds, the AK was about to shoot over the berm and the AK has a much slower rate of fire.

3: Some of these rounds offer a flatter trajectory than the 5.56 (6.8 to name one). Others might not be as flat but they are adequately flat out to 300m and they are much more effective when they get there. I figured the 6.5 would have the flatest trajectory, but other than that and the 5.45 most of the others will have near rainbow trajectories. Particularly the 7.62 rounds and the Beowulf/Socom. You can't beat physics, even with a cool name. :)

4: Penetration is pointless if it overpenetrates before yawing/fragmenting. These other rounds don't have problems penetrating and have tangible affects on soft targets. Define "tangible effects". The 7.62X39 is well known for it's penetration but it is also similar to a .38 Special on soft targets it penetrates too far before starting to tumble. Anything similar in velocity/sectional density will have similar effects on the target unless you use a different bullet design. Back to physics again.

5: Well, if one of these rounds is adopted it will be available... so this is a moot point. We are talking about "better" not "most common". If you are talking about some future condition that doesn't yet exist, you could also theorize that utilizing superior bullet construction in the 5.56 could also happen. The 50gr TSX round is a phenomenal penetrator and has dramatic effects on soft targets, what if you were comparing the TSX to FMJ 6.8SPC? I was speaking in today's terms, with a civilian mindset, not future "what if" terms.

6: If one of these rounds is adopted then it will also cost very little... so this is a moot point. Again, we are talking about "better" not "cheapest"Again with the "IF". If we aren't talking about today, anything is possible. Including a Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40 Watt range.;)

7: Lethality. It is lethal, but a .22lr is lethal, too (don't get me wrong... I'm not equating them). I'm just saying that 5.56x45 isn't as deadly as these other rounds and they do not suffer as many of the downsides of using a full house caliber like a .308 (which you claimed that they do judging by your list). They aren't that heavy, they don't recoil that much more, they penetrate better, they do not suffer a loss in magazine capacity Ummm, yes they do, with the exception of the 5.45, unless you are talking about changing the magazine envelope, some of them (Beowulf/Grendel) reduce it significantly. You can't take a box that holds 30 .22" diameters and stick 30, .30" diameters or .45" diameters in it. That physics thing again.;) (generally), etc. They aren't 7.62 NATO rounds even though some of them are .308" in diameter.

How do you know that the 5.56 isn't as deadly as the others? Remember, there is no magic bullet. A bullet has to hit a vital area on a target to take it down. A 5.56 through the interoccular cavity will drop someone just as fast as a .50 Beowulf. The difference is getting back on target to shoot the next guy with the 5.56 vs the other rounds.

You seem to be an intelligent guy who is willing to do research. Get an account over at Lightfighter.net, don't ask this question there, but do some research. The guys there do this stuff for a living, some of them are ACTIVELY working with the Asymetric Warfare Group, PEO Soldier, and outfits that "don't exist" developing and testing new rounds & weapon systems in combat. See what they think about the 5.56 vs the .308 and other rounds. You might be suprised what their conclusions are.

The quick answer, those guys are finding that it takes just as many rounds of 7.62X51 from a SCAR H to drop someone as it does with a 5.56 from a SCAR L or M4. The difference is they can't carry as many rounds.
 

SRE

New member
Personally I view "best" as meaning versatile and I can only assume that this pertains to where each individual answering this question lives. So for me living in the USA and considering the relative game animals I feel basically anything 6mm is going to be your best intermediate rifle round. Especially the .243win.

From its broad range of bullet weights, that get even broader when hand loading, you can accurately and effectively take anything from varmints to pigs. Whitetail strongly dislike the .243win.

Now the platform in which the .243win works may not be the best depending on the scenario at hand. But that round sure is what I would call the beat intermediate rifle round pertaining to my geographical location.
 

jimbob86

Moderator
Intermediate round?

Like less than .30 Gubmint (2.0 ....... or is that 3.0 now?) but more than a handgun caliber?

7mm-08 is my favorite.

More versatile than anything else listed- though it won't fit into a standard AR magazine ...... but then again, neither will long, efficient bullets for the 5.56x45 ..... and without those, that one is not real usefull to me anyhow.
 

BlueTrain

New member
Kindly refrain from using the word "gubmint." Also tuck in your shirt, pull up your pants and don't wear bib overalls around here. Camo is fine, however.
 

homesick

New member
I define intermediate as 24 to 28 caliber non belted like 243 Win to 280 Rem. with that in mind I like the 25-06 then 7mm-08 I don't have a 260 Rem but would like to try one.
 

BigMikey76

New member
I went with "other." 7mm08, to be exact. In researching my first rifle purchase, which I took very seriously, since it is most likely to be my only rifle for quite a while, I landed on the 7mm08 because it has versatility - bullet weights ranging from the 100gr range up to the 175gr range make it an able round from coyotes to elk and pretty much anything in between (maybe a bit of over kill for the yotes, but does anyone here really feel bad for them?), relatively light recoil, and increasing availability in factory loads. It is not as common as some others, yet, but not hard to find either, at least in my area. Of course, once I start reloading, the factory options will matter much less, but for now, it was still a consideration.
That being said, the 7mm08 came out as the best for MY NEEDS, which is as a hunting round that will take care of whatever kind of game I want to put on the table. The needs and preferences of others will obviously differ, so I encourage everyone to take my opinion with a grain of salt.
 

BigMikey76

New member
Also tuck in your shirt, pull up your pants and don't wear bib overalls around here.

Didn't know there was a dress code... is it OK for me to wear sandals, or are closed toed shoes required?
 

BlueTrain

New member
I am from West Virginia and sometimes become overly sensitive to behavior that makes people think less of us hillbillies. We may live in a log house (I did) but we don't live in log cabins. We rarely marry first cousins, even if family reunions are good places to meet girls.

Of course, there's a dress code. We are upstanding folk around here (aren't we?). We take off our hats indoors, open doors for the ladies and women, shake hands, say please and thank you, look both ways before crossing the street and never, ever disobey the traffic laws, which includes not shooting at road signs, even if they have a leaping deer thereon. There must be order. It is close to being a religion and a great deal of faith is required.

I will not quote poetry in this thread. That is deadly.

I'm not sure about letting the other guy go for his gun first, however.
 

BigMikey76

New member
I am from West Virginia and sometimes become overly sensitive to behavior that makes people think less of us hillbillies.

My dad hails from Tennessee, and he always says "We aren't hillbillies. We wear shoes, and that makes us hillwilliams." :)
 

603Country

New member
BigMikey makes a good case for the 7mm08, and I wouldn't mind having one though I never bought one, since I had a 270 for deer and a 220 for coyotes. The only reason I have the 260 is that a buddy was getting rid of some rifles (to make room for more new ones) and he sold me the hardly used 260 with a Weaver 2-10 scope for $300. I couldn't pass up a deal like that, but I parked it in the safe for years. Then when the grandson got old enough to hunt, I dusted it off and sighted it in for him. That's when I found out what a great round that is. I do consider it an intermediate round, but that's Ok. Nowdays the 270 stays in the safe, as does the 220. The only problem I have is that the grandson always wants to hunt with the 260, and so do I. He has a 308 he won't shoot. That darn kid...
 

aarondhgraham

New member
Hello BlueTrain,,,

I will not quote poetry in this thread. That is deadly.

I chuckled,,,
It reminded me of a Robert A Heinlein quote.

"Beware the man who reads his own poetry in public.
He may have other bad habits as well."


Thanks for reminding me of that one.

Aarond

.
 

Moloch

New member
I actually wanted to vote for the .308 / 7.62x51 but its not on the list. With all the .300WM's, .338's etc. that exist today I think the .308 is kind of an intermediate round now.
 
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