Best for accuracy in .308?
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brianidaho
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Fn Spr A1,a2,a3
USMC1stBa_4thMA
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Savage Great gun.. Crappy Trigger
I have had my Savage 10FP for about 7 years now. Great gun, a little heavy but then again it is supposed to be. I have heard people said that it will shoot as well as any 2 and three grand rifle. I can tell you that is quite a statement and I will tell you that it is true. I have friend with a M40A1 and shoots just as well and sometimes better. I have it against M70 and Model 700 custom rigs and it stands up. Now the down side, the stock is cheap, the trigger is horrible (I have the old one, I heard the acu-trigger is great) and it will rust if you are no on top of your cleaning. Not to mention it is not the prettiest rifle in the world, but rifles in my safe have come and gone, this one will stay. Now where can I get a good McMillan stock for it??
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons.
—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
I have had my Savage 10FP for about 7 years now. Great gun, a little heavy but then again it is supposed to be. I have heard people said that it will shoot as well as any 2 and three grand rifle. I can tell you that is quite a statement and I will tell you that it is true. I have friend with a M40A1 and shoots just as well and sometimes better. I have it against M70 and Model 700 custom rigs and it stands up. Now the down side, the stock is cheap, the trigger is horrible (I have the old one, I heard the acu-trigger is great) and it will rust if you are no on top of your cleaning. Not to mention it is not the prettiest rifle in the world, but rifles in my safe have come and gone, this one will stay. Now where can I get a good McMillan stock for it??
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons.
—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
A basically unmucked-with Remington 700PSS, 26" barrel...
For example, this one:
Which has the factory trigger adjusted down to 2 pounds, and the action torqued into the aluminum bedding block to 65 inch-pounds, will consistently group cold-bore, 3 rounds from the prone bipod, like this at 100 yards:
Note: The gun gets fed handloads, period. The load data is on the target.
For example, this one:
Which has the factory trigger adjusted down to 2 pounds, and the action torqued into the aluminum bedding block to 65 inch-pounds, will consistently group cold-bore, 3 rounds from the prone bipod, like this at 100 yards:
Note: The gun gets fed handloads, period. The load data is on the target.
Savage10FP308
Moderator
Gewehr...
that's a very good looking rifle! It looks like it is a hell of a shooter as well. Congradulations!
that's a very good looking rifle! It looks like it is a hell of a shooter as well. Congradulations!
629 shooter
New member
I have had great results with 2 different Remingtons - a 700VS and a 700P. Both were the 26" heavy barrel rifles with H&S stocks. Here is a 5 shot group from the 700P.
Ammo Junky
New member
Why didn't you include Winchester Stealth or Coyote
I have a Stelth .223 and like it. It is much heavier than my .308 700vs. The stock is much nicer too. I haven't shot the vs so I can't comment on accuracu. I wish the stelth had a 12" twist instead of 9", becaus it prefers heavier bullets or 55grs at 3000fps or less. I don't remember which rag I read it in but it was more accurate than ruger or rem varminit rifles in that test. They all shot very clost to 1/2". I have read A LOT of post online from unsastified ruger owners. I really like the desgine of rugers and win, but always hear rem shoots the best groups with savage nipping at their heels.
I have a Stelth .223 and like it. It is much heavier than my .308 700vs. The stock is much nicer too. I haven't shot the vs so I can't comment on accuracu. I wish the stelth had a 12" twist instead of 9", becaus it prefers heavier bullets or 55grs at 3000fps or less. I don't remember which rag I read it in but it was more accurate than ruger or rem varminit rifles in that test. They all shot very clost to 1/2". I have read A LOT of post online from unsastified ruger owners. I really like the desgine of rugers and win, but always hear rem shoots the best groups with savage nipping at their heels.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
Lessee, 19 peeps voted for the 26 inch Rem 700 police, and only 5 for the 20" rem police. Since a shorter barrel is stiffer and therefore potentially more accurate, all other factors being equal, that means at least 19 people don't know what they're talking about. Which means you probably shouldn't rely on the poll. Having said that, this is a tiny tiny portion of accuracy potential, and certainly irrelevant for the deer side of the dual applications - in which case the velocity gained from the longer barrel might very well outweigh the accuracy potential, if you're shooting at deer a long ways away. But I'd say Savage 10 or the 20" rem 700 ltr - voted Savage.
629 shooter
New member
Lessee, 19 peeps voted for the 26 inch Rem 700 police, and only 5 for the 20" rem police. Since a shorter barrel is stiffer and therefore potentially more accurate, all other factors being equal, that means at least 19 people don't know what they're talking about.
Maybe some of the peeps such as myself and Gewehr98 have firsthand personal experience owning and shooting the 26" 700s and have achieved (what we consider) above average accuracy results on a fairly consistent basis. So from our own experience we feel that the 700P , PSS with 26" barrels are great shooting rifles. If that is still an indication that us peeps don't know what were are talking about, I guess I can live with it.
Like you say , "potentially" - does not mean absolute. There are undoubtedly short barrel .308 LTRs that shoot well. The "On Target" magazines that are given out free at places like Gander Mountain had an test with the LTR and 700P both in .308 and the best group was fired with the longer barrel 700P. Does it meant that all 700Ps are going to be more accurate? No ,in fact if the same rifles were tested in depth over time the opposite might be true.
I have a fairly new 700 LTR, although in .223. Thus far it HAS NOT shot better than my old 26" 700 VLS .223. Does not mean that it will not once I have more time to work with it. In fact I need to load up some ammo for the range right now!
Maybe some of the peeps such as myself and Gewehr98 have firsthand personal experience owning and shooting the 26" 700s and have achieved (what we consider) above average accuracy results on a fairly consistent basis. So from our own experience we feel that the 700P , PSS with 26" barrels are great shooting rifles. If that is still an indication that us peeps don't know what were are talking about, I guess I can live with it.
Like you say , "potentially" - does not mean absolute. There are undoubtedly short barrel .308 LTRs that shoot well. The "On Target" magazines that are given out free at places like Gander Mountain had an test with the LTR and 700P both in .308 and the best group was fired with the longer barrel 700P. Does it meant that all 700Ps are going to be more accurate? No ,in fact if the same rifles were tested in depth over time the opposite might be true.
I have a fairly new 700 LTR, although in .223. Thus far it HAS NOT shot better than my old 26" 700 VLS .223. Does not mean that it will not once I have more time to work with it. In fact I need to load up some ammo for the range right now!
Savage10FP308
Moderator
First Freedom...
is this actually John Kerry or something? Could you flip flop a few more times for good measure? You claim no one knows what they are talking about and then you prove their point for them. Like 629 shooter said, there are advantages to both guns. It all comes down to personal preference. What feels more comfortable, what rifle fits you better, and what can you shoot the best?
is this actually John Kerry or something? Could you flip flop a few more times for good measure? You claim no one knows what they are talking about and then you prove their point for them.
Like 629 shooter said, there are advantages to both guns. It all comes down to personal preference. What feels more comfortable, what rifle fits you better, and what can you shoot the best?FirstFreedom
Moderator
No I didn't prove their point for them. When properly tuned to a handload, the 20" will shoot better - minute differences, but better. I stand by my assertions.
Savage10FP308
Moderator
What do you have to back this up???
Show me where you get your information? Besides the fact that you are wrong, the barrel is one part of the gun! What about the guns stock, trigger, bedding, action and .......? You can put a 20 inch barrel on anything. If the gun is a peice of crap it's not gonna do any good. Barrel length is not as big as a factor as you make it out to be and it certainly isn't a big enough factor for you to say that anyone who voted for the longer barreled gun doesn't know what they are talking about. :barf:
Show me where you get your information? Besides the fact that you are wrong, the barrel is one part of the gun! What about the guns stock, trigger, bedding, action and .......? You can put a 20 inch barrel on anything. If the gun is a peice of crap it's not gonna do any good. Barrel length is not as big as a factor as you make it out to be and it certainly isn't a big enough factor for you to say that anyone who voted for the longer barreled gun doesn't know what they are talking about.
:barf:DAVID NANCARROW
New member
FirstFreedom, looks to me like a couple of the 19 know-nothings have stepped up to the plate with proof. Were's yours? I understand your argument, but its theoretical and depends on more than just the barrel length. I'll be more than happy to saw off a half a foot of barrel length if the difference is measurable.
As to the choice of rifle, I picked the PSS with the long tube. The only reason I did this is because the thread starter did not include the VS series, which averages $100 cheaper, but only comes in the 26" barrel length. I don't think a particular barrel length has any great accuracy advantage-a good barrel is a good barrel. The length may give a slight advantage in velocity depending on the cartridge-magnum lengths seem to show a decided advantage in a long barrel. With the 308, you're probably picking up maybe 100-200 fps over the short stack
As to the choice of rifle, I picked the PSS with the long tube. The only reason I did this is because the thread starter did not include the VS series, which averages $100 cheaper, but only comes in the 26" barrel length. I don't think a particular barrel length has any great accuracy advantage-a good barrel is a good barrel. The length may give a slight advantage in velocity depending on the cartridge-magnum lengths seem to show a decided advantage in a long barrel. With the 308, you're probably picking up maybe 100-200 fps over the short stack
I think FirstFreedom's trying to get somebody's goat.
Because I figure he knows better.
The difference in accuracy potential between a 20" tube and 26" tube is not worth the worry, especially if both barrels are made to a high standard of fit and finish. Case in point, if shorter is indeed better across the board, then the 200-meter benchrest guys should have 18-20" barrels, right? Nope. They're running between 24" to 30" on barrel length. So what do they know about accuracy that we unwashed don't?
Shorter barrels also lose burn time, and some of us are unwilling to sacrifice that 25fps/inch, adding up to 150fps lost, either for the few extra foot-pounds of deer-killing energy, or that pain-in-the-tuckus transition from supersonic to subsonic between 800-1000 yards. In other words, a heavy barrel .308 can serve more than one purpose, thumping Bambi one day, and competing in F-Class the next. That's one reason I considered, then skipped right past the 700 LTR and went to the 700 Varmint/PSS family. Regarding the cute little 700 LTR 20" barrel variant, if it gets to the point I can't hump an extra 6 inches of bull barrel in the woods, I need to lay off the saturated fats in my diet and hit the treadmill. Heck, I plan on taking my Sharps Business Rifle out this next deer season, and the 32" barrel on that beast measures 1" across the flats at the muzzle. A Winchester Featherweight, it ain't.
Short barrels and short stocks are handier and easier to pack in the woods when looking for venison, no doubt. A short, stiff barrel can indeed be more accurate than a longer, thinner barrel, with all the extra whip and harmonics of the latter. But one cannot assume that a 20" LTR will automatically shoot tighter groups than a 26" PSS. One would open themselves up for some surprises if they promoted that as gospel.
Because I figure he knows better.
The difference in accuracy potential between a 20" tube and 26" tube is not worth the worry, especially if both barrels are made to a high standard of fit and finish. Case in point, if shorter is indeed better across the board, then the 200-meter benchrest guys should have 18-20" barrels, right? Nope. They're running between 24" to 30" on barrel length. So what do they know about accuracy that we unwashed don't?
Shorter barrels also lose burn time, and some of us are unwilling to sacrifice that 25fps/inch, adding up to 150fps lost, either for the few extra foot-pounds of deer-killing energy, or that pain-in-the-tuckus transition from supersonic to subsonic between 800-1000 yards. In other words, a heavy barrel .308 can serve more than one purpose, thumping Bambi one day, and competing in F-Class the next. That's one reason I considered, then skipped right past the 700 LTR and went to the 700 Varmint/PSS family. Regarding the cute little 700 LTR 20" barrel variant, if it gets to the point I can't hump an extra 6 inches of bull barrel in the woods, I need to lay off the saturated fats in my diet and hit the treadmill. Heck, I plan on taking my Sharps Business Rifle out this next deer season, and the 32" barrel on that beast measures 1" across the flats at the muzzle. A Winchester Featherweight, it ain't.
Short barrels and short stocks are handier and easier to pack in the woods when looking for venison, no doubt. A short, stiff barrel can indeed be more accurate than a longer, thinner barrel, with all the extra whip and harmonics of the latter. But one cannot assume that a 20" LTR will automatically shoot tighter groups than a 26" PSS. One would open themselves up for some surprises if they promoted that as gospel.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
How many of those who stepped up to the plate (allegedly) actually have owned BOTH, and still chose the 26"? Just a simple question. The O.P. wanted to know about what is the most accurate - that is is sole over-riding criteria in his question. I was trying to help answer his question, and believe that the poll results were doing him a dis-service, with those two specific chioces, and wanted to point that out. Barrel length can make a difference, due to barrel vibrations, and the shorter, the better. As I already pointed out, it's a very very small difference. But all other things being equal (as is the case with these two rifles), the shorter is going to be better, 9 times out of 10, if the sole criteria is accuracy. Anyway, I'm sure I'm wrong...
Are you sure? They may for long distance shooting, but in my understanding, not for 100, 200, and 300 B.R. They use 18"-22" barrels at that range, IINM, where going subsonic is not an issue at all:
http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/rigidity_benchrest_rifles.htm
Stiffer is better; but that's just Dan Lilja; what do he know? Then again, if it's thick enough, then it doesn't matter; the stiffness will still be there with a longer barrel - but we weren't talking about super-thick unlimited class BR barrels anyhow - we were talking about factory varmint/tactical H.B.s. But look at the tables there at that length, and the degree of 'deflection' present in the different barrel lengths with different contours - that will explain it.
And this from the 6mmBR page:
http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/barrelFAQ.html#24633
Are you sure? They may for long distance shooting, but in my understanding, not for 100, 200, and 300 B.R. They use 18"-22" barrels at that range, IINM, where going subsonic is not an issue at all:
http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/rigidity_benchrest_rifles.htm
Stiffer is better; but that's just Dan Lilja; what do he know?
Then again, if it's thick enough, then it doesn't matter; the stiffness will still be there with a longer barrel - but we weren't talking about super-thick unlimited class BR barrels anyhow - we were talking about factory varmint/tactical H.B.s. But look at the tables there at that length, and the degree of 'deflection' present in the different barrel lengths with different contours - that will explain it.And this from the 6mmBR page:
http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/barrelFAQ.html#24633
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That's intriguing...
Because one of the sources for my 200-300 yard bencrest gun specs was www.6mmbr.com - including many of the Guns of the Week winners:
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek058.html
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek008.html
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek007.html
and I'm sure many others. Barrel length is still a matter of personal preferences, the 20" tube isn't a de-facto standard, not by a long shot. Let's not forget, we're dealing with premium barrels here, some held to 1/10,000ths of an inch in bore dimension tolerances. (Krieger, the people I interviewed with and start working for in the next few weeks. Put that in your name-dropping folder next to Dan Lilja...) BTW, Dan would really like to sell you a stiff barrel. All the premium barrels from reputable folks ooze quality, and whether 20" or 26", will still group like there's no tomorrow. They're not necessarily the cat's meow for tromping through the woods looking for game, but the folks who make those benchrest barrels will sell you a heavy varmint or sporter contour with the same attention to care in manufacture.
Yes, I've owned 20" .308 and .30-06 bolt guns, in all sorts of barrel contours and configurations, including one ugly Mauser-actioned beast with a 20", 1.50" diameter barrel salvaged from a pressure test rig. I've even got a 22" Krieger-barreled gas gun. (I've never seen a 24" or 26" M14) My conclusion has been that matching the round to the chamber and barrel system does more for accuracy than lopping off 6" of tube. Hence, for my demands on accuracy, I'd still go with a 24" to 26" barrel for a varmint/target/hunter, like the ones listed above in the survey. They all have more than adequate barrel thickness needed to dampen harmonics, as opposed to something, say, from a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight. Regardless, I can work around barrel harmonics if the longer barrel has noticeable "whip" compared to an 18" - 20" tube. People get so hung up on barrel stiffness, and they forget it's not the sum total of accuracy. A thin barrel can be made to shoot rings around a 2" diameter monster, it's a matter of tuning the load. We're already seeing barrel tuners in use, and they'll play a bigger part in the future. The Browning/Winchester BOSS was just a hint of things to come.
I cannot, however, add velocity to the bullet after it leaves the muzzle crown on the shorter barrel. I'd really like to have the extra 150fps when I'm putting venison on the table. The author of the thread will probably never find the difference in accuracy between an LTR and PSS. Differences in ammo alone will give greater variation in group sizes.
Because one of the sources for my 200-300 yard bencrest gun specs was www.6mmbr.com - including many of the Guns of the Week winners:
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek058.html
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek008.html
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek007.html
and I'm sure many others. Barrel length is still a matter of personal preferences, the 20" tube isn't a de-facto standard, not by a long shot. Let's not forget, we're dealing with premium barrels here, some held to 1/10,000ths of an inch in bore dimension tolerances. (Krieger, the people I interviewed with and start working for in the next few weeks. Put that in your name-dropping folder next to Dan Lilja...) BTW, Dan would really like to sell you a stiff barrel. All the premium barrels from reputable folks ooze quality, and whether 20" or 26", will still group like there's no tomorrow. They're not necessarily the cat's meow for tromping through the woods looking for game, but the folks who make those benchrest barrels will sell you a heavy varmint or sporter contour with the same attention to care in manufacture.
Yes, I've owned 20" .308 and .30-06 bolt guns, in all sorts of barrel contours and configurations, including one ugly Mauser-actioned beast with a 20", 1.50" diameter barrel salvaged from a pressure test rig. I've even got a 22" Krieger-barreled gas gun. (I've never seen a 24" or 26" M14) My conclusion has been that matching the round to the chamber and barrel system does more for accuracy than lopping off 6" of tube. Hence, for my demands on accuracy, I'd still go with a 24" to 26" barrel for a varmint/target/hunter, like the ones listed above in the survey. They all have more than adequate barrel thickness needed to dampen harmonics, as opposed to something, say, from a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight. Regardless, I can work around barrel harmonics if the longer barrel has noticeable "whip" compared to an 18" - 20" tube. People get so hung up on barrel stiffness, and they forget it's not the sum total of accuracy. A thin barrel can be made to shoot rings around a 2" diameter monster, it's a matter of tuning the load. We're already seeing barrel tuners in use, and they'll play a bigger part in the future. The Browning/Winchester BOSS was just a hint of things to come.
I cannot, however, add velocity to the bullet after it leaves the muzzle crown on the shorter barrel. I'd really like to have the extra 150fps when I'm putting venison on the table. The author of the thread will probably never find the difference in accuracy between an LTR and PSS. Differences in ammo alone will give greater variation in group sizes.
Savage10FP308
Moderator
Gewehr...
Very good point and very good info. It seems like every time you post I either see some cool guns or I learn something. Both are very good for me! I will agree that barrel length is one of the smaller worries in finding an accurate rifle.
Very good point and very good info. It seems like every time you post I either see some cool guns or I learn something. Both are very good for me! I will agree that barrel length is one of the smaller worries in finding an accurate rifle.