Belgian Shotgun. I brush my teeth with gun powder so I can shoot off my mouth.

[Doc Hoy]

About 2 years ago, I posted some photos and description of the work I did on a cheap Belgian shotgun from the late 19th century (twelve bore, double barrel, 28 inch barrels, percussion). The restoration produced an aesthetically pleasing shotgun. Early in the thread, I reported that I was happy to view it as a conversation piece. But then, as the work continued, not uncovering anything that I (in my admitted ignorance) thought was a show-stopper, I mused about shooting it.

I am getting closer but I am not a fool (I think). Just as a I would not drop a cherry bomb in a can full of marbles and hold it up to my cheek, I would not shoot this thing without I had some idea that it is safe. I can't test the integrity of the breach nor the barrels apart from what I can see (and, of course by shooting it). Bore is clear. Barrels not bulged. Nothing obvious about breach plugs accept that one appears to have been replaced a long time ago. I have a bore scope and after extensive cleaning, everything back to the holes for the nipples appears to be fine. Nipples replaced with properly fitting new nipples.

As I am not a trained gunsmith, part of the thought process was having a gunsmith check it. At least that was my plan.

Gunsmiths are not available on every corner in Naples, FL. Not easy to find. (You can get the oil changed in your Rolls, Injectors re-programmed in your Ferrari, even have an Easy Rider Rifle Rack installed in your Bentley. But just try to find Starline Brass!!). I have spoken to two via phone and they told me that they would not be able to opine on the safety of the shotgun even if they were able to examine it. It appears, in those two cases, to be a reflection on their desire to avoid legal exposure, as much as anything, since they were not interested in looking at it. One guy in VA examined it when I first got it, and declared it would never be a shooter citing numerous factors, all of which were addressed in the restoration. Another gave me a list of things to correct and advised light loads using a string fire set up.

I am not asking anyone, here, to postulate without seeing, examining, testing the piece. I am not even asking for advice on a light test load. This is primarily a philosophical commentary.

Because of my lack of training, education, and experience, I am compelled to rely upon someone else to examine the shotgun. But it is darned hard to find someone who will commit to even look at it. I completely understand this reluctance given the litigiousness of our society. I am familiar with the stipulations placed upon businessmen by insurance companies in other industries and I assume that anything associated with firearms is even more strict.

What is my point?

I just wanted to relate my experience (and minor disappointment). I have always enjoyed and respected the reaction that my curmudgeonly side engenders in this forum.

Actually, I do not have a curmudgeonly side. I am a curmudgeon with occasional flashes of normalcy.

 

[JohnKSa]

Rig a sled setup so you can shoot it remotely. Find out what the proof load would have been for that gun and test both barrels. That's how it would have been tested when it was new.

Muzzle-loading shotgunning is, as I understand it, quite different from the cartridge variety, but some folks seem to really love it.

 

[Doc Hoy]

Thanks, John...With regard to shooting the piece...

That would be my plan. I would start light and work up to heavier loads but would carefully examine it after each shot.

I don't do CAS or other competitions. Don't hunt. Don't need a percussion shotgun for anything but curiosity and personal satisfaction.

I did a lot of work on this shotgun and would be very proud to learn that it will hold together.

I would likely shoot only #1 or #0 shot but I am reluctant to even mention that in this forum. I do not want to put anyone on the spot regarding recommended loads for this piece.

The right barrel was loaded (without my knowledge) when I got the shotgun. I pulled a ton of black goop out of it. Left barrel was clear but filthy.

 

[bobn]

perhaps some of the automobile engine crack testing hacks might help. hmm

 

[Doc Hoy]

Agree

I still have some calling around to folks in the vicinity.

 

[jrinne0430]

I too have an old 19th century 12ga Belgian double. Fired it many times and even hunted with it once. After replacing the mangled nipples, I started off with 15grs of 2F and a cloth wad (no shot). Slowly worked up the loads and added a small amount of shot over time to the max 65grs of 2F and an ounce of shot. Could it handle more of a charge and shot? Probably, but it's so old I don't want to push it. The barrel thickness appears to be a bit thinner near the muzzle compared to my modern Pietta replica. Check out https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/ as they also have a lot of good info on firing older guns.

 

[Hawg]

I've got an Ancion 12 gauge SXS made in Belgium around 1850. I shoot it some but not as much as I used to.

 

[Pahoo]

But it is darned hard to find someone who will commit to even look at it.

I can understand why as I am often asked to do these inspections. I have even been asked to "Certify" it's use. The red-flags go up and you are not going to find anyone to meet, your requirements. Just not going to happen. So, it's in your lap.. ....

Have to ask; how serious you are about shooting it. Once or whatever???....
If it's Damascus hang it on the wall and enjoy it's beauty. !!!

When I run into a situation like this and understand that I am not advising you on what you should do.
In a past life, I had access to Magna-Flux services. I have also done the basic "ring" test by lighty rapping the barrel with a wooden dowel....
I have also wrapped the stock with a towel, placed it inside and old spare tire, tied a line to the trigger. The other end of the line, I walk about 30-YDS and get behind a tree. Do the sign of the cross and pull the line. Depending on the results, the test is over. Oh yes, I always use the lightest load, possible.........

Take Care and;
Be Safe !!!

 

[Hawg]

One good thing about Belgium made guns is on a lot of them the barrels are brazed together instead of soldered.

 

[Doc Hoy]

Thanks all.

To Jrinne, it seems like your shotgun's condition was, at first, a good bit like mine. I had to drill the nipples out and tap slightly oversized holes. Made special nipples to fit it. Search this forum for a thread on "percussion shotgun" under my handle from about 2020.

To Hawg, I think the vintage of this shotgun (from the styling of the proofmarks) is much similar to yours. It is gratifying to know that you shoot it.

To Pahoo, This is about the reaction I am getting. It happened again today. Even shops that have the ultimate equipment will not jeopardize their business and their ability to sleep at night. I wasn;t asking for "certification". Just an examination to find faults which to a trained gunsmiths would be show stoppers. I would feel the same way. The Barrels are not Damascus and the ring test produces a sound like "c", two octaves above middle c on a Steinway.

I will probably use the balls I mold for .31 caliber cap and ball revolvers. They are right between #1 and #0. I am happy for additional reactions on the load to use but I do have a plan. I do understand we should be very careful in discussing loads. I have already popped caps. As you say, I will start with no shot and I like 15 gr. As I said previously, I won't shoot this thing for any reason apart from proving that it shoots. I might try to profile the barrels just for the experience. My approach to this, as it is for the Stevens Favorite, is that every shot is a test shot. Prolly won't shoot it much after the first fifty rounds.

 

[Jim Watson]

Not my game but I have frequently READ of the “square load,” equal volumes of powder and bird shot. Buckshot is another thing.

 

[Doc Hoy]

Agree

Some of the info on the internet mentions it. I would start lighter and allow the profile of the barrels suggest the final load.

Also, almost everything I read suggests that percussion loads should mirror smokeless loads in terms of the shot. So if a shell has nine #00 buck, then nine balls that are very similar is size should be okay for my use (Not hunting, trap shooting, competition shooting or trying to wake up the neighbors).

 

[jrinne0430]

I have fired some 9 00 buck loads (power, nitro card, three stacks of three buck, over shot card). Pattern was ok to about 20yrds. Also fired patched .690 round ball that chrono close to 900fps. Lucky to get 7” spread at 50yrds with ball. Did use Hodgon 777 (decrease in charge) and Graf and Son black powder. Decided to stick with real black powder since 777 is bit hotter and was best kept for my CVA and Pietta.

As for the nipples, they were hammered flat from years of dry firing. I went with musket nipples. Musket caps are so much easier to handle with my fingers.

 

[Doc Hoy]

Jrinne

The range you use is same as mine; 20-25 yards. I am fairly set on the shot I will use because of the uses that I mentioned previously. (No hunting, no clay, no competition, no CAS)

The nipples on this shotgun were mangled and rusted. Only option was to replace them. I am a bit impressed with the barrels on the gun because they are quite heavy at the breach.

In one of the photos of the other posts from 2020 the roman numeral; VII was filed into the barrel under the forearm. I thought that was done to the barrel before it was shipped to the U.S. But on close examination of the stock, yesterday, I found the roman numeral; VIII in the stock under the trigger guard. Perhaps all of these marks were made after the gun arrived in the U.S. by the shop that assembled the final shotgun. Other folks on the forum have suggested that it was manufactured as barrels and then the rest put together from parts made in the states.

 

[bedbugbilly]

Doc - I had a very nice double 10 gauge many years ag - locks marked "Henry Leigh" (percussion. I went over it all and it looked fine - my plan was to shoot clay pigeons with it . I talked with an old gunsmith I knew and he advised me to bring the barrels to him and he would show me how to check them to make sure that both top and bottom ribs were securely soldered and holding the two barrels together.

I took the barrels to him and his method of checking them was tat he took the barrels, checking the top rib first. He laid them flat on the bench and laid a bead of common gun oil along each side of the top rib and then very carefully, using leather jaw pads in his bench vice, worked the full length of the barrels through his vise and applied just a slight pressure to the sides of the barrels. He explained that if there were any "bad spots" in the rib solder joint, the slight pressure would open it enough and you could observe oil running into the bad area down between the rib and the barrel. The top rib passed with flying colors.

He wiped the oil off and then turned the barrels over to repeat the process on the under rib. This examination did not go well at all! It easily showed that there were four areas where there were bad spots in the rib seams - in one spot, on both sides of the ribs for a length of around 7 or 8 inches. To thanked eye, you could not see them, but his "oil test" clearly pointed out that there was a major issues. His advice was to not shoot it as it would only get worse and at some point the barrel and ribs could separate. He did not have the skills to resolder the ribs as he said it should be done ny a smith that specialized in shotgun repairs and barrel work - and it would not be cheap.

He was curious so he pulled the breech plugs and inspected the bores which were extremely in good shape as the shotgun had obviously been well taken care of, but over the many years of use, the bottom rib joints had developed an issue. He said the gun was well worth fixing, IF I wanted to pay the price that a good shotgun smith would charge.

I had another percussion shotgun to use so I just set shotgun back and forgot about it. A couple of years later, when my brother and I headed down to the Nationals at Friendship. I took it along. There used to be a gentleman in one of the sheep sheds there who had a booth - he specialized in muzzle loading shotguns and bought and sold them. I took the 10 gauge and paid him a visit to show him and see if he repaired them - which he did and he had been recommended to me for his skill in repairing rib joints. I explained to him the issue with the barrels and he pulled them and confirmed what I already knew. He said he could repair the problem but he would remove the bottom rib completely and re-solder the entire length of it, and, there very likely may be some work needed on the top rib which all translated into more $$$ than I wanted to spend. He looked the gun over and checked the bores and said if it didn't have any sentimental value, he would be interested intaking it in on trade if he had anything in his rack I would be interested in. He showed me what he had and I fell in love with a nice percussion double 20 gauge German apprentice made shotgun. We came to an agreement and I took the 20 gauge home. It was a sweet shooting shotgun and I used it for a number of years, eventually trading it off back to him on a 1816 model smoothbore Springfield he had taken in on a trade when I was at Friendship.

Sorry for the length of my dribbling on Doc - but if you have any concern about how your barrel; rid seams are - it's a good way to check them - there may be better ways, but the old gunsmith had a lot of tricks up his sleeve from his experiences. He was the same one, who 60+ years ago taught me how to shoot cap & ball revolvers using his grandfather's original '51 Colt Navy.

Jim

 

[Doc Hoy]

Thanks for the info 3Bs

IMHO, your "dribbling" was not long enough.

You do something that I haven't worked to do. That is that you attend the meets. I stay away because I could never find one close enough to attend.

This does two things for you.

1. Familiarity with more and broader aspects of the lifestyle.
2. Access to items and supplies that I don't easily see.

I am grateful every time I see your handle on a post (I hope you don't mind that I have shortened it to"3Bs") because I know it is going to be good.

That is true of many others on the forum.

As soon as I hit the post button I am going to do some reading on events that might be available close by.

Tnx,

Doc

 

[Jim Watson]

On the other hand, I watched a CAS competitor shoot a modern Browning double with loose ribs that twanged every shot. Not recommended but I saw it done.

 

[Doc Hoy]

I may try that oil test...

... on the ribs. I hung it and banged it with a dowel without it making any harsh noises.

My plan to test fire the barrels is to clamp it in a rifle stand and use a thirty foot string.

I will load nine #0 shot but with about a half load of powder (black). I don't think I will go any higher than an even load.

I am not going to hunt with it, so I won't need any smaller shot. Nor will I shoot slugs.

 

[Pahoo]

Your call !!!

My plan to test fire the barrels is to clamp it in a rifle stand and use a thirty foot string.

I hesitate to repeat myself but if you use a tire, it will obsorb all the recoil, slide and no way, damage your shotgun. I no longer have to play with this stuff, but have had very good results. .....

Be Safe !!!

 

[Doc Hoy]

Pahoo.

The stand is amply padded with rubber foam. The origin of that foam is a pair of aluminum crutches which I cannibalized for the purpose.

The stand has a clamp to secure the rifle under test preventing it from sliding in the stand.

I have used this stand previously to test fire rifles, most recently the Stevens Favorite and the padding has always prevented damage. In addition the stand is somewhat light allowing it and the secured rifle to move under the recoil of the shot.