Bear hunting and gall bladders...

[Double Naught Spy]

Ridiculous, and you are missing the point, while strengthening mine. To slaughter (there is absolutely no other word that fits) animals for such a tiny fraction of the whole is not only the epitomy of selfish ignorance, it is a crime against nature and everything an outdoorsman/hunter/person of common sense should stand for. As you pointed out, most of these compounds can be produced synthetically, so there is no supportable reason to kill bears, tigers, etc for such selfish reasons. Just to clear here, we are not talking about harvesting a plant or mineral, or even using the byproducts of an existing industry, we are talking retarded, selfish and unneccessary continued destruction.

Boy, talk about missing the point. Bear gall and bladder use have been documented for more than 1000 years and for the last several hundred by westerners. It is considered as traditional and appropriate medicince by many peoples. The product has been shown to have medical benefits. So you can't claim the use of the product is out of ignorance and superstition. As such, your claim is ignorant.

I do see where you have changed from use of the products to hunting of the animals. As near as I can tell from USFWS and new account, the hunters are not hunting them out of any sort of ignorance. They hunters generally aren't using the products themselves. It is all about the money.

we are talking retarded, selfish and unneccessary continued destruction.

Who determines it to be unnecessary? I agree with you, but that seems to be a very far-fetched claim by an outdoorsman/hunter/person of common sense which other such members here seem to think that just about any animal that has the potential to do harm to people should be hunted to the point of near eradication, excect saving some for the joy of hunting them so long as they are kept away from regular defenseless people.

So it seems to me that there are some very supportable reasons to be killing off carnivores, at least claimed by a large number of hunters even on this board. Personally, I don't agree with most of them. Heck, just look at those outdoorsmen/hunters/persons of common sense here who feel that every snake they see needs to be dispatched because they don't like snakes.

Sorry, but too many of the outdoorsmen/hunters/persons of common sense seem to have some huge double standards and oft seem predisposed to commit their own "crimes against nature" that they rationalize as justified, sometimes because they are indeed outdoorsmen and hunters.

It is naive to believe that any of the people involved in this process are what you consider to be "outdoorsmen/hunters/persons of common sense" who give an iota about what such folks should stand for. They don't share your values and don't care about your values. Just because you think they are doing wrong doesn't bother them one iota.

 

[Gbro]

So then the Ignorance and superstition labels should be on the Game managers and other wildlife professionals.
If a certain part of the animal I hunt has a legitimate medicinal value to it and because some exploit this same animal part I am treated just the same way.
When I purchase a tag, I should get a tag to go along with said animal part so that I can then sell it just like i can sell the hide.
There is nothing that fuels the black market more than a restricted product. all that dose is raises the price of the product/part.
Question for D N Spy,
Is there an medicinal value to the Snake Oil peddled in the old west?

 

[Art Eatman]

Look, DNS: The issue, based on reports in the news from wildlife agencies, is that the main reason for this gall-bladder deal with black bears is the sale into the Asian market for use as aphrodisiacs.

That there may be true medicinal uses is beside the point. That's not the cause of the poaching.

SFAIK, those who poach for gall bladders--so it is claimed by the game wardens, at least--do not utilize the rest of the bear. Shoot, cut and run is the common behavior.

 

[gearhounds]

+1. We're not talking about using the gall bladder, along with all the other parts from a game animal; we are in fact talking about the retarded, wanton wasteful destruction of said game animals by a group of criminals feeding the greed and superstition of other retards. In fact, please do not use the words sportsman, hunter, or outdoorsman in this thread. Feel free to liberally use terms like retard, poacher, criminal, or any other description of the opposite of everything a true sportsman should stand for.

 

[markj]

the main reason for this gall-bladder deal with black bears is the sale into the Asian market for use as aphrodisiacs.

Reading that kinda had the opposite effect on me....

They actually use the bile produced by the gall bladder. In China they keep em in cages and have a stint installed so they can leech off a little as needed. Also do huge dogs like st bernards. These folks eat eggs boiled and wrapped in manure then buried for a thousand years

Heck in China they just isnt any "wildlife" as we know it, eaten up years ago during droughts I was told. But then again no road kill or deer to hit at night....

Different cultures.

 

[aaalaska]

I have put this forward before, But I find it hard to believe with the thousands of bears harvested in North America, if we required every hunter harvest the gall bladder, then put them on the market at very low cost, a few years of that has to drive the cost of black market bladders down, maybe even low enough to make it not worth a poachers time & effort. Because what we're doing now isn't working ,we through our actions have driven the prices to the point where every bear in the world is worth a fortune. Some of the more pressured bears in the world will only exist in zoos in what is left of my life. And it is worth the risk for many , this one bear could pay more than years of work.
Al;ex

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Look, DNS: The issue, based on reports in the news from wildlife agencies, is that the main reason for this gall-bladder deal with black bears is the sale into the Asian market for use as aphrodisiacs.

That there may be true medicinal uses is beside the point. That's not the cause of the poaching.

Look AE: I don't know where you get your information that the main reason gall-bladders are poached mainly for aphrodisiacs. It would appear they they are marketed for liver, stomach, intestinal, and blood issues.

http://books.google.com/books?id=QR...&resnum=7&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.bornfreeusa.org/press.php?p=2767&more=1

http://www.laurelneme.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74&Itemid=160

http://www.clickerado.com/c/chinese_medicine/bear.htm
http://usspost.com/bear-gall-bladder-uses-23251/
http://allaboutnews.net/bear-gallbladder-uses/2228/
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ddusbearbile.htm#s2

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/arus6animall129.htm
This source notes their use for fevers, burns, swelling, and sprains along with stomach pains and blood in the stool, not to mention eye issues.

Newsweek missed the aphrodisiac connection, but noted it for several other animal products and NOT gall bladders or gall bile.
http://www.newsweek.com/1990/07/22/the-new-killing-fields.html

http://www.lab.fws.gov/pdfs/Hagey_etal.1993.pdf (see page 1915)

This report on east Asian markets for bear gallbladder says they are NOT for aphrodisiacs.
www.traffic.org/species-reports/traffic_species_mammals10.pdf

I fail to see where "aphrodisiacs" are mentioned in the main reasoning for gall bladder trade, not even by the tree huggers. No doubt if the aphrodisiac angle was significant, it would be played up.

What about those wildlife agencies claiming gallbladders being used for aphrodisiacs, AE?

Our Canadian Natural Resources folks have this to say,
In summary, from head aches to hemorrhoides. But, contrary to what you may have heard, not as an aphrodisiac.

http://www.gov.ns.ca/natr/wildlife/large-mammals/beargalls.asp

As noted here, Art, you and others appear to have fallen prey to some western mythology as noted here that is largely the result of poorly researched notions put forth in the writings of culturally ignorant journalists.
http://ancientway.com/blog/?p=80

There may be journalists out there who think that the gall and gallbladder are being used for aphrodisiacs and who make the idea public. There may be some law enforcement folks who think the same thing just like law enforcement folks get gun information wrong as well. There may be hunters who think they are hunting for the aphrodisiac trade because they can't imagine somebody buying such an expensive product to treat a stomach ache when you can buy a 99 cent bottle of Tums to deal with the problem. However, the actual demand for gall and gall products by the people who use them does not seem to be mainly for the purpose of being aphrodisiacs as you stated so emphatically.

Heck, even Wiki doesn't note it for use as an aphrodisiac.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bile_bear


Maybe this will sum it up nicely...

According to the Humane Society of the United States, an average size bear gallbladder can be sold for as much as $3,400 in Asia. Used in traditional medicine, the organ is believed by some to have a variety of medicinal properties and is sometimes sold as a sexual stimulant.

Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/default/ar...rges-in-alleged-bear-899690.php#ixzz1JUkOicpn

Maybe your Google-fu is better than mine and you have data to support what you have said, but I don't find anything to support that the main reason for gall and gallbladders to be purchased by Asian peoples is for sexual properties.

 

[Art Eatman]

I'm going by what the wildlife follks have been saying for a good number of years. The deal about aphrodisiacs is what they believe, per their press releases to the newspapers. For all I know, the poachers they catch may well believe the same thing about the market into which they sell the illegally-shot bears.

Seems to me that if there are legitimate uses in medicine, there would be a legitimate and known market, with legal purchases possible. So, control the market here in the U.S. as is done with alligators.

The issue isn't really about whether or not the use CAN be legitimate. It's about poaching and taking only the gall bladder (and maybe the claws) and wasting the rest of the animal. And that's what the wildlife people say has been happening.

A point to ponder: The rise of the petroleum industry ended most non-food whaling. Sperm oil was no longer needed. The same holds for modern medical products as compared to those from animals.

 

[thallub]

The issue isn't really about whether or not the use CAN be legitimate. It's about poaching and taking only the gall bladder (and maybe the claws) and wasting the rest of the animal.

What Art Eatman said.

Last winter a friend of mine found several black bears in WV that had been shot and left lay, with their stomachs slit open and minus their claws.

 

[orangello]

To be fair, if you only get information from the Fish & Game/conservation people, you are only consulting a biased source, much as if you called the NYPD to ask about carry permit laws. A source with less money in the game might be more accurate or have information the F&G boys didn't consider. Information from an herbalist or a purveyor of holistic cures based on all-natural products would probably be similarly biased, just in the opposing direction.

These folks eat eggs boiled and wrapped in manure then buried for a thousand years.

Somebody needs to sell them a microwave or something. :barf:

 

[markj]

Somebody needs to sell them a microwave or something.

We seem to buy all they make......

I am a biker, some of my friends did this tour

http://www.adventurebiketours.co.uk/china.htm

told me a lot about the way of life there. I love hearing their tales of travel in other countries but China is very wierd.

 

[Art Eatman]

"A source with less money in the game might be more accurate or have information the F&G boys didn't consider."

True, but so long as there is poaching and discoveries as posted by thallub, there's a problem. Even a true medical use does not justify the wasting--and that wasting is indeed happening.

It's up to legitimate buyers to lobby lawmakers to institute some sort of controlled market, not the bear hunter who hunts legally.