ATF says medical marijuana users can't buy guns of any kind

Status
Not open for further replies.
By contrast, pot doesn't go with a meal, does it?
No, it usually comes before a meal, often a meal consisting of Doritos, Hostess snack cakes, and ramen noodles. That meal is usually consumed in bean-bag chairs to the sounds of Carlos Santana. I went to a liberal arts school; I know this stuff. :rolleyes:

As others have mentioned, the law is the law. The courts have upheld it. The ATF is a law enforcement agency, and it's their job to enforce it.

If we want changes, we need to change the law. This whole situation is nothing new, and I'm confused as to why it suddenly made the headlines this week.
 

Chris_B

New member
Roger, many studies find that inhalation of marijuana smoke promotes pulmonary infections, respiratory diseases and cancer. I will have to disagree with your conviction that no deaths have been caused by marijuana. What you mean is that since it has been extremely difficult to cite marijuana as the primary cause of death, the data can be viewed such that it's safer than aspirin because there has yet to be a case in which a death is proven to be from an overdose of THC. The FDA however finds that it is a contributing factor to many deaths- just not the primary cause.

I could argue that drunk driving deaths are primarily from exsanguination, not due to the toxicity of alcohol. But we'd both agree that drunk driving was the problem in that case, I assume
 

Glenn E. Meyer

New member
Let's get back the legal issues. Ingesting various unhealthy substances isn't our domain.

I don't know if we want to debate legalization of marijuane per se. I'll make a judgement call and say: NO.

That's because it will start a flame war quickly. The relevant issue is state vs. Feds.
 

orangello

New member
This is simply an area the government need not insert its noses into, IMO. Much like making me carry health insurance of their standard or requiring a girl to get a questionable immunization for a disease of very limited contagious nature or requiring firearms training or a home safe for firearms purchases. It is not the Federal government's business; it isn't the State governments' business; it IS the individuals' business and theirs alone. If they abuse their freedoms, then that individual should be reigned in, not society as a whole. Look at how sex offenders are tracked (imperfectly, but a start); do we limit all adults to a 100 yard perimiter of elementary schools, or do we limit those who have abused their freedoms?

I haven't abused my freedoms; leave me alone.

I know it's very popular and very simple to equate alcoholic beverage consumption and the use of marijuana, however, I don't see them as analagous at all. The ONLY reason anyone smokes/eats/whatever marijuana is for the mind-altering effect. This is not the case with alcoholic beverages, necessarily. Many people enjoy fine spirits, wine and beer for the taste, not to get stoned or high. So all of the inevitable comparisons between legal alcohol use and illegal marijuana use that don't allow for this very real fact are, inherently, flawed.
I have known a number of people who were very experienced in the area who would disagree with you, including more than a few chefs. Flavor makes most of the difference between the "dirt" and the "dank". I've known a few beer lovers who swore they were only there for the taste of some fine micro-brew or other, but i haven't seen one who didn't get some buzz from it.
 
It is not the Federal government's business; it isn't the State governments' business; it IS the individuals' business and theirs alone.
Not since the government put the stuff on Schedule I in 1970. Right or wrong, it's been illegal for nearly 40 years. In the intervening time, there has been little legal opposition, and none of it very effective.

The ATF didn't just pass some new law; they're just reminding gun dealers of something they know anyway. Yet it becomes front-page news, and everybody panics like it's something new.

I'm not even sure if this is really a 2nd Amendment issue. I'd imagine that a court challenge would probably come from a different angle.
 

dogtown tom

New member
Tom Servo:......The ATF didn't just pass some new law; they're just reminding gun dealers of something they know anyway. Yet it becomes front-page news, and everybody panics like it's something new.

+1

Next months terror news flash.........

Buyers must be 21 years old to buy a handgun from a licensed dealer!

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 

ltc444

New member
Until the Issue of medical MJ is resolved, Legal in some states, illegal at the federal level. We as gun owners need to avoid the legal debate.

We face an uphill battle to restore our rights and protect our sports. We do not need to align ourselves with a medical issue supported with non pier reviewed data.
 

youngunz4life

New member
it is a little ridiculous that someone can tell a grown man what he can or can't do in his own home though. Many, many lives are lost due to these 'uphill battles' and 'drug wars', and yet supply & demand will always prevail. I know it isn't realistic to feel I can do "whatever I want" in society as well though. I don't even smoke. I gave up cigarettes and all forms of tobacco in 3/2001.

One thing is for certain, being impaired while shooting the gun or CCWing is incorrect in many forms. Everyone already knows this though as pointed out in earlier posts about levels of intoxication and so forth.
 
Buyers must be 21 years old to buy a handgun from a licensed dealer!
What?!? No way! When did that happen? Next thing, they'll pass some law that says I can't buy one if I've renounced my citizenship. I bet Holder's just waitin' to do that, too.

Marijuana is the cause of a host of social ills, not the least of which is the continued career of Pink Floyd after the departure of Roger Waters. It's illegal to own it. It's illegal to smoke it. That's not a secret, nor is it some obscure statutory thing.

While I may disagree with that situation, I've yet to meet an advocate for legalization who isn't an active user, and therefore engaged in criminal activity. Credibility becomes a real issue.
 

amd6547

New member
Well, meet one.
I smoked plenty of pot in my youth, having graduated high school in the 1970's and attended Kent State University. Virtually everyone smoked pot then.
I am a DOT regulated truck driver, and subject to random urine testing. I have not touched pot for a decade, and I have the drug test results to prove it.
I am firmly in favor of legalization. Punish those who use irresponsibly, just like alcohol drinkers.
Medicinal pot proved it's worth to me just recently when my brother was diagnosed with cancer. Living in California, he was able to get various edible forms of pot which helped him like no other drug which the doctors tried.
While he is not a regular shooter like me, he does own a pistol our father brought home from WWII.
Should his use of a state taxed and legalized substance require him to divest himself of that pistol?
 
Should his use of a state taxed and legalized substance require him to divest himself of that pistol?
It shouldn't, but Gonzales v. Raich is the 800lb gorilla in the living room. Under the current situation, California can't make marijuana legal, even under a prescription.

I don't think it's right, but there it is. And it's not new.
 

Chaz88

New member
Well, meet one.

Meet another one. I have no interest in using pot or other drugs legal or not. I do have an interest in living in a free country. A country that adults can decide what they want to responsibly put in there own bodies for whatever reason they want to. I feel the same way about protecting other liberties for Americans, even the ones I do not agree with. I do not like anyone telling me what I can and can not do, as long as I am not infringing on the liberties of others.
 

HiBC

New member
I was OP to one of the older threads on this issue.I posted because I noticed,and took serious,the qiestion on the form decades ago.I decided I could keep one or the other,but not both.I kept my RTKBA.

Years later,Colorado passed the Medpot card law.I fpund myself in conversations with folks about guns,but later the topic would change,and pot cards would come up.

I have been told I look like Jerry Garcia by a number of folks,and so assumptions get made.

Not as a parent or wannabe DEA agent,but as a service,I advised these folks they have documented themselves as pot users with the Medpot card.Obamacare gives the Fed Government access to med records.
Technology gives tremendous power to cross checking records.Does database "A" have any hits on database "B"
Making a false statement on the BATF form is a felony.

The ATF just made a clarifying statement as to what the rules of the game are.

IMO,all the rant about "should be" "not fair",etc,is irrelevant.Do what makes you happy.

Appreciate someone gave you information you may use to take care of yourself.

How does it work out for cockroaches who argue with chickens? Darwin 101.

My conclusion:I may have A,or B,but not A+B. Recite serenity prayer.Change what you can change,accept what you cannot change.

IMO,if you ask the doctor to end the prescription,and stop using long enough to clean your body,you should be OK.
The form does not ask "Have you ever been..." it asks "Are you..."

Passing a drug test would be pretty strong evidence against being a user of or addicted to..
 

Chris_B

New member
Well, meet one.
I smoked plenty of pot in my youth, having graduated high school in the 1970's and attended Kent State University. Virtually everyone smoked pot then.
I am a DOT regulated truck driver, and subject to random urine testing. I have not touched pot for a decade, and I have the drug test results to prove it.
I am firmly in favor of legalization. Punish those who use irresponsibly, just like alcohol drinkers.
Medicinal pot proved it's worth to me just recently when my brother was diagnosed with cancer. Living in California, he was able to get various edible forms of pot which helped him like no other drug which the doctors tried.
While he is not a regular shooter like me, he does own a pistol our father brought home from WWII.
Should his use of a state taxed and legalized substance require him to divest himself of that pistol?

But right there at the end of your post, there's the crux:

This is not a State only issue. The ATF is the Feds, and the Feds say it's not OK

And I hear you on your standpoint on one drug vs the other and punish those who are irresponsible. But if I'm drunk and spill a beer, the people around me don't ingest that drug. If you're smoking dope and your smoke wafts over to me, I get the smoke second hand. It's not so cut and dry as we may like it; the issue is more complex than just personal use in this case, and it seems likely that this is part of the ATF's standpoint on things in this case, and possibly on the legal aspect on the Federal level as a whole
 

amd6547

New member
"...How does it work out for cockroaches who argue with chickens? Darwin 101..."

If you choose define yourself as a cockroach, that is on you. In the America I love, the people still decide what they will accept from their government.
Someday, the huge number of citizens who have used pot with no difficulties will end the madness that is the illegality of pot.
They will use all the methods available to them, from the electoral process, to ignoring the ridiculous laws...just as they did to end prohibition of alcohol.

"....And I hear you on your standpoint on one drug vs the other and punish those who are irresponsible. But if I'm drunk and spill a beer, the people around me don't ingest that drug. If you're smoking dope and your smoke wafts over to me, I get the smoke second hand. It's not so cut and dry as we may like it; the issue is more complex than just personal use in this case...."
Pot does not have to be smoked...while my brotHer was buying med pot, he never smoked any. It was available as chocolate bars, suckers, bread and other foodstuffs. The issue of second hand smoke is a false one.
 

Chris_B

New member
Pot does not have to be smoked...while my brother was buying med pot, he never smoked any. It was available as chocolate bars, suckers, bread and other foodstuffs. The issue of second hand smoke is a false one.

On the contrary, your assertion that my point is invalid because in your brother's case, the marijuana was not inhaled is in error. Your standpoint assumes that legalized marijuana can never be smoked.

In addition, my example was one of general terms, not your brother's specific situation. I used as an example you and me, not your brother. This was very deliberately on my part, to remove his specific case from my example.

Lastly, this still does not address the point I had made previously- the state may tax it, but the ATF is not a state agency, and this is at the center of the issue. The ATF is not looking at your state's laws
 

American Made

New member
Most federal laws are unconstitutional. I mean, if someone looks back in time many of the founders spelled out the meaning of federalism. It was unheard of for the "agent of the several States" to dictate any such law as this. However....after the States ratified the constitution all bets were off.

BLACKSTONE'S COMMENTARIES:

It will he remembered, that the object of the several states in the adoption of that instrument, was not the establishment of a general consolidated government, which should swallow up the state sovereignties, and annihilate their several jurisdictions, and powers, as states; but a federal government, with powers limited to certain determinate objects; viz. their intercourse and concerns with foreign nations; and with each other, as separate and independent states; and, as members of the same confederacy: leaving the administration of their internal, and domestic concerns, to the absolute and uncontrolable jurisdiction of the states, respectively; except in one or two particular instances, specified, and enumerated in the constitution. And because this principle was supposed not to have been expressed with sufficient precision, and certainty, an amendatory article was proposed, adopted, and ratified; whereby it is expressly declared, that, "the powers not delegated to the United States by the constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." This article is, indeed, nothing more than an express recognition of the law of nations...
=================================================

"I had written to Mr. Madison, as I had before informed you, and had stated to him some general ideas for consideration and consultation when we should meet. I thought something essentially necessary to be said, in order to avoid the inference of acquiescence; that a resolution or declaration should be passed, 1. answering the reasonings of such of the States as have ventured into the field of reason, and that of the committee of Congress, taking some notice, too, of those States who have either not answered at all, or answered without reasoning. 2. Making firm protestation against the precedent and principle, and reserving the right to make this palpable violation of the federal compact the ground of doing in future whatever we might now rightfully do, should repetitions of these and other violations of the compact render it expedient. 3. Expressing in affectionate and conciliatory language our warm attachment to union with our sister States, and to the instrument and principles by which we are united; that we are willing to sacrifice to this every thing but the rights of self-government in those important points which we have never yielded, and in which alone we see liberty, safety, and happiness; that not at all disposed to make every measure of error or of wrong, a cause of scission, we are willing to look on with indulgence, and to wait with patience, till those passions and delusions shall have passed over, which the federal government have artfully excited to cover its own abuses and conceal its designs, fully confident that the good sense of the American people, and their attachment to those very rights which we are now vindicating, will, before it shall be too late, rally with us round the true principles of our federal compact. This was only meant to give a general idea of the complexion and topics of such an instrument. Mr. M. who came, as had been proposed, does not concur in the reservation proposed above; and from this I recede readily, not only in deference to his judgment, but because, as we should never think of separation but for repeated and enormous violations, so these, when they occur, will be cause enough of themselves."

-- Thomas Jefferson





Thomas Jefferson To William B. Giles

Monticello, December 26, 1825. Dear Sir,—I wrote you a letter yesterday, of which you will be free to make what use you please. This will contain matters not intended for the public eye. I see, as you do, and with the deepest affliction, the rapid strides with which the federal branch of our government is advancing towards the usurpation of all the rights reserved to the States, and the consolidation in itself of all powers, foreign and domestic; and that too, by constructions which, if legitimate, leave no limits to their power. Take together the decisions of the federal court, the doctrines of the President, and the misconstructions of the constitutional compact acted on by the legislature of the federal branch, and it is but too evident, that the three ruling branches of that department are in combination to strip their colleagues, the State authorities, of the powers reserved by them, and to exercise themselves all functions foreign and domestic. Under the power to regulate commerce, they assume indefinitely that also over agriculture and manufactures, and call it regulation to take the earnings of one of these branches of industry, and that, too, the most depressed, and put them into the pockets of the other, the most flourishing of all. Under the authority to establish post roads, they claim that of cutting down mountains for the construction of roads, of digging canals, and aided by a little sophistry on the words "general welfare," a right to do, not only the acts to effect that, which are specifically enumerated and permitted, but whatsoever they shall think, or pretend will be for the general welfare. And what is our resource for the preservation of the Constitution? Reason and argument? You might as well reason and argue with the marble columns encircling them. The representatives chosen by ourselves? They are joined in the combination, some from incorrect views of government, some from corrupt ones, sufficient voting together to outnumber the sound parts; and with majorities only of one, two, or three, bold enough to go forward in defiance. Are we then to stand to our arms, with the hot-headed Georgian? No. That must be the last resource, not to be thought of until much longer and greater sufferings. If every infraction of a compact of so many parties is to be resisted at once, as a dissolution of it, none can ever be formed which would last one year. We must have patience and longer endurance then with our brethren while under delusion; give them time for reflection and experience of consequences; keep ourselves in a situation to profit by the chapter of accidents; and separate from our companions only when the sole alternatives left, are the dissolution of our Union with them, or submission to a government without limitation of powers. Between these two evils, when we must make a choice, there can be no hesitation. But in the meanwhile, the States should be watchful to note every material usurpation on their rights; to denounce them as they occur in the most peremptory terms; to protest against them as wrongs to which our present submission shall be considered, not as acknowledgments or precedents of right, but as a temporary yielding to the lesser evil, until their accumulation shall overweigh that of separation. I would go still further, and give to the federal member, by a regular amendment of the Constitution, a right to make roads and canals of intercommunication between the States, providing sufficiently against corrupt practices in Congress, (log-rolling, etc.,) by declaring that the federal proportion of each State of the moneys so employed, shall be in works within the State, or elsewhere with its consent, and with a due salvo of jurisdiction. This is the course which I think safest and best as yet.
 

Chaz88

New member
Except that unless a court agrees, your opinion doesn't mean anything.

Like me, when I got the same response from you, he is putting things in a historical context and asserting what the original intentions of the founders and constitution were. How is this just a matter of opinion that does not matter?

Ultimately it was only the opinions of colonial citizens that lead to the creation of this nation and the constitution. The King, parliament, and courts assuredly felt that the opinions of the colonies did not matter in light of British law.
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
Chaz88 said:
Like me, when I got the same response from you, he is putting things in a historical context and asserting what the original intentions of the founders and constitution were. How is this just a matter of opinion that does not matter?...
When the question relates to whether laws create consequences for acts, it's the opinions of courts that matter. The opinions of courts cause/affect those consequences. Your opinions have no effect on such things in the real world.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top