ATF open letter on the redesign of “stabilizing braces”

[9x19]

I agree, you don't hear about ATFE "trolling" for people who add a second vertical grip to their handgun (which has been subject to NFA for a long time)... but that doesn't change the fact, they will prosecute you for it, if they do catch you using one.

If the downward direction of these opinions does lead to a new RULE, then the Brace may very well become like the vertical grips, with POSSIBLE exceptions for the (documented) disabled.

 

[tirod]

I'm reminded of a similar situation - many states have laws requiring vehicles to have their tires covered by the fenders, to prevent debris from getting kicked up onto following cars.

And yet many states have owners of 4WD vehicles with large tires exposed which throw mud all over the exterior and behind them, anyway.

No enforcement.

Same for muffler laws, the motorcyclists in my town are under the impression that loud pipes save lives, and the police do nothing about their open exhaust. But a hot rod or motor vehicle with straight headers gets pulled over.

Sure, there is some enforcement, it's selective. And not every range even has an RO enforce local rules, or wants to act as an employee of the ATF on an issue that is far from decided.

This is far from over.

Ten years ago if you had built an AR pistol and then pinned a long flash hider on it to make the barrel 16"+, it would then be a rifle. But if you removed the flash hider, woe unto you, it was redesigning it as an SBR and you better have applied for the stamp or face prosecution.

Now you can - because the ATF was taken to court on that issue and lost. A firearm that could have both a short and long barrel on it, with either a pistol or rifle stock, which could be changed back and forth was deemed an exception, and the trickle down rule is that now, if you build the AR as a pistol first, you can change it back and forth.

And of course, no, nobody recommends building it as an SBR and then going out in public. Not without the stamp. Nobody publicly advocates breaking the law, especially in print on the internet.

On the other hand, what enforcement will there be? As said, the ATF isn't hauling VFG violators into court. I won't expect brace users to be arrested any time soon, certainly not in any significant numbers.

Maybe one guy? Ruin his life with legal fees? Lost job, family estranged, oh noooo, the horror, the horror, who could stand up to that? The poor guy needs to be put on suicide watch because his life will be ruined!

Life happens. Accept the risks or don't play the game.

 

[Ridge_Runner_5]

Because it's up to the individual officer to decide to bust them for it, or not. The ATF seems willing to go after everyone, and even go so far as to stack the deck for prosecution, like making ammunition with soft, exposed primers to make a gun burst fire when they couldn't do it with production ammunition.

 

[dogtown tom]

tirod ......Ten years ago if you had built an AR pistol and then pinned a long flash hider on it to make the barrel 16"+, it would then be a rifle. But if you removed the flash hider, woe unto you, it was redesigning it as an SBR and you better have applied for the stamp or face prosecution.

Absolutely not true.
The definitions of "Rifle" and "Handgun" under Federal law has not changed since 1934.
Pinning a long flash hider on a pistol doesn't make a rifle.........a "Rifle" must have a shoulder stock AND a barrel of at least 16" and OAL of 26".

Now you can - because the ATF was taken to court on that issue and lost. A firearm that could have both a short and long barrel on it, with either a pistol or rifle stock, which could be changed back and forth was deemed an exception, and the trickle down rule is that now, if you build the AR as a pistol first, you can change it back and forth.

You are confused. What you describe in the first paragraph above is not at all related to the Thompson Center case.


Do you see how folks get in trouble?

 

[raimius]

Maybe one guy? Ruin his life with legal fees? Lost job, family estranged, oh noooo, the horror, the horror, who could stand up to that? The poor guy needs to be put on suicide watch because his life will be ruined!

Life happens. Accept the risks or don't play the game.

...So you are cool with people losing their life savings and going to prison for 10 years because the ATF recently decided holding an object differently "redesigns" it?

 

[jimbob86]

The entire thing is just stupid.....as are 98.99999999% of firearms laws

Calling a law stupid won't keep you out of jail if a Federal Agency decides to make an example out of you ..... especially in court, where eveyone there except the accused and the jury makes a very nice living quibbling over "stupid" laws.....

 

[Arizona Fusilier]

I remain somewhat confused on the basic premise of this thread. I have seen an example or two of these arm-braces; are people actually using them as shoulder stocks?

Really? How do we know?

I apologize; I am on a moblie device and haven't looked at any youtube video.

And if someone deliberately misuses an appoved device, we are all on the hook?

Sorry if I sound confused ......I am.

 

[barnbwt]

Without even checking, the first five image results for "SIG Brace" will probably feature someone shouldering it. Far more than images of it strapped to the wrist, in any case. The ATF used to be cool with this arrangement, until they decided they weren't.

TCB

 

[tirod]

Pinning a long flash hider on a 14.5" barrel and making it 16" makes that barrel a legal under the NFA as not being short barreled. The 16" is the line in the sand.

Follow the tracking - pre TC thinking was that an AR built first as a pistol was NFA legal, no stock. Convert by adding a stock and pinning on a flash hider to make it 16" then redesigns it as a rifle. And in the day, once a rifle, always a rifle. Changing it back to a short barrel weapon stock or not required a stamp.

TODAY, build that lower as a pistol, first, it's a pistol. Redesign it with a stock and pinned or otherwise 16" barrel, it's a rifle. Convert it back to a pistol, legal.

Many posters on many other boards have explained it. None were an ATF agent, and no one professes to be one here either, so it's a matter of opinion.

What we are all attempting to do in these discussions is attempting to understand the law by exchanging information and viewpoints - without resulting to letters inquiring the ATF. And they are NOT always right.

Neither is the IRS, and both have been taken to court. They lose cases, too.

Nobody should be advocating a position to evade or break the law, but this issue is clouded with contradictory opinion - even from the ATF. It is not resolved, and the reality is that regulatory guidance never is. What was enforced 5 years ago under the NFA has changed to what we understand is enforced now.

What was legal about the brace just 18 months ago is now cast in a different light. Whether it's one way or the other is a matter of the current trend in enforcement, which is completely lacking in this situation.

It's constantly pointed out nobody should want to be the one test case, we don't even have one yet. That is a major statement about the enforcement of this situation. Without that, it's all sound and fury on the internet signifying nothing.

Most of our divergent legal understanding of what is legal about the brace and what is not will likely never be settled - same as whether a pistol lower remains a pistol lower - because it's all opinion where no case law or court decision stands. And even that can change in the long run - at one time slavery was legal, and motorists had to walk in front of their vehicle waving a flag or red light.

Things change and repressive policies are rescinded.

Whether someone's life is ruined by it may or may not happen, as I keep reminding, you could get hit in traffic tomorrow - it has far more likelihood than being arrested for shouldering a brace.

BTW, I bought a lower to build as a pistol - the rifle lower can't be converted. Once a rifle always a rifle, once a pistol it can be a pistol again. That situation didn't used to exist, but now I'm taking advantage of it. Any future lower I build will be a pistol first - because that is the current interpretation of regulation as the ATF now enforces it.

I guess.

 

[Justice06RR]

I was quite surprised that the ATF cleared these "stabilizers" in the first place.

The main take-away here is that the SB15 was originally designed to assist in firing an AR pistol one-handed, specifically for disabled individuals.

The SigBrace itself is NOT banned. What the ATF did is to regulate its use (which I disagree on and believe to be BS).

They have been and will still be legal for use as designed, if you strap them on your forearm. Before this newest letter it was ok to shoulder it, But with so many people trivializing the brace and making claims on going around NFA laws, the ATF had to step in and make their statement. Some people just can't leave well enough alone...

Each SigBrace ships with the previous letter stating its ok to be shouldered (dated Mar 2014 IIRC). Some people were too dumb to understand this and had to further complicate the issue by poking the ATF and sending other clarification letters and ultimately grabbed the attention ATF.

 

[tirod]

I note that a lot of SBR stamp owners were posting amazing return times that seemed to have accelerated. The wait times two years ago were reportedly 8-9 months, once the brace sales were rolling I read where stamp applications were being returned in 8-9 weeks. The ATF is reported to have increased their staff, but I think it was reduced applications. The brace simply killed SBR stamp sales.

Now that the letter has hit the ATF has started returning all applications with any error whatsoever. Back to square one to the applicant, to correct and return. The wait time starts over.

I'm seeing an agenda by the ATF to choke stamp sales and cut off Brace sales. Their letter was handed out per political guidelines, on a Friday afternoon with nobody to answer the phones all weekend. Added to that, that weekend everyone was traveling to the biggest firearms sales event annually, with dozens of new braced equipped guns for sale along with new brace styles.

It's all about the anti gun politics of this administration, and they pulled off a pretty good punch. Brace owners immediately clogged for sale forums with them discounted to move, and others started inquiring about adding 5" flash hiders or applying for stamps.

They are getting the enforcement they needed from the gun community itself. And it's already getting worse, a post on another forum has a pistol owner being told by a range officer that shouldering his buffer tube is illegal, and forcing him to leave the range under escort.

It's already as bad as that guy getting tackled at Walmart. We have seen the enemy, and he is us.

 

[Tom Servo]

The ATF is reported to have increased their staff, but I think it was reduced applications.

Applications haven't fallen off by that much. They're simply handing out overtime and increasing staffing.

I'm seeing an agenda by the ATF to choke stamp sales and cut off Brace sales.

Without evidence of such conspiracy, it makes more sense that the decrease in wait times and the revised policy on the pistol braces are unrelated factors.

 

[dogtown tom]

tirod ......The ATF is reported to have increased their staff, but I think it was reduced applications.

Increased staff, unlimited overtime and contract labor. Remember the sequester REMOVED the contract labor.......and it took months to get those workers back.

The brace simply killed SBR stamp sales.

Not by a long shot.
Even if it did affect Form 1's, the addition of several states making silencers legal for hunting (Texas among them) increased the number of Form 3's and 4's more than ever.

I'm seeing an agenda by the ATF to choke stamp sales and cut off Brace sales.

Um yeah. You forget that they have made electronic form filing a reality. Remember, they weren't forced to do so.

The backlog isn't a conspiracy or "agenda", its how government works. Agencies have a budget and no matter how conditions change they can't just hire more document examiners because they want or need them.

Their letter was handed out per political guidelines, on a Friday afternoon with nobody to answer the phones all weekend.

That's funny.
Other than "what letter?" what would you expect someone to say?

Added to that, that weekend everyone was traveling to the biggest firearms sales event annually, with dozens of new braced equipped guns for sale along with new brace styles.

And that's the fault of who? ATF? Or those who its a brace its not really a stock ?

It's all about the anti gun politics of this administration, and they pulled off a pretty good punch. Brace owners immediately clogged for sale forums with them discounted to move, and others started inquiring about adding 5" flash hiders or applying for stamps.

Nothing in ANY of the ATF's Open Letter or previous determination letters has anything to do with this administration. As a matter of fact THE BRACE WAS APPROVED by this administration...........I doubt it would have been any different under Bush, Clinton, Nixon or anyone else. The determination letters are consistent with previous NFA rulings and determination letters.

They are getting the enforcement they needed from the gun community itself. And it's already getting worse, a post on another forum has a pistol owner being told by a range officer that shouldering his buffer tube is illegal, and forcing him to leave the range under escort.

Their range, their rules.

It's all about the anti gun politics of this administration,

I disagree. It's been a pretty consistent interpretation of the National Firearms Act of 1934...........a shoulder stock on a handgun makes it an SBR.

..... Brace owners immediately clogged for sale forums with them discounted to move, and others started inquiring about adding 5" flash hiders or applying for stamps.

And that's not solely the fault of ATF.

 

[raimius]

I disagree. It's been a pretty consistent interpretation of the National Firearms Act of 1934...........a shoulder stock on a handgun makes it an SBR.

Yes, but now a "not shoulder stock" may or may not make the handgun and SBR...how you hold it or intend to hold it now determines whether you should go to prison or not--sounds reasonable, no?

 

[tirod]

I didn't realize someone was privy to the number of applications being submitted and the hiring practices of the ATF in the last two years.

Any links to those facts?

If someone wants to pump their ego deconstructing another's opinion, it's really a waste of time. The fact is that the Brace changed the playing field in some significant ways.

First, the AR community began to realize the only difference between an AR pistol as a toy range gun and a stamped SBR was 1) a stock 2) the stamp.

In terms of legality, the pistol already had significant advantages, especially where a State outlawed possession of SBR's. In terms of accuracy, the discussion become centered on how much do you need for a weapon who's primary mission is close in shooting under 50 feet?

There are plenty of threads and videos showing the pistol is as effective as the SBR. Functionally they are identical in all other respects - except for a flat vertical surface on the rear to stabilize holding it against the shoulder.

There are other methods and in the 50 foot accuracy range it's moot. A handgun would do as well, what the pistol offers is rifle level power and high capacity, plus it falls under CCW guidelines.

The AR shooters were well aware of the distinct advantages, and adding a Brace only sold the concept to a lot more.

Prior to the Brace, wait times on Stamps were over 18 months. Currently, the wait time is now weeks.

My contention is that for every Brace sold, there was a Stamp application put off, and that is what caused the major reduction in wait times.

Absent hard facts to the contrary, it's just an opinion, and everybody has one.

What the Open Letter has done, tho, is to highlight who is being complicit with the ATF in supporting the status quo. On the other hand, there are those who are reminding us that the NFA is a discriminatory and unConstitutional act to deprive citizens of their 2A rights, and imposes a "poll tax" that only allows those "approved" to pass muster and own a firearm that for millions of others would be illegal to possess.

And aren't sorry for suggesting that if buying a Stamp is the price of your integrity, so be it.

Bickering over the details of what is obviously an attempt to further restrict our 2A rights is exactly what anti gunners and the current Administration want to get. It deflects from organizing and getting Congress or the Courts to remove the provisions of the NFA. That should be our #1 effort - not rumbling in threads to prove who's the alpha poster.

Either the citizens of the United States run their government, or the government will run us. Considering the current state of affairs, it seems as if there are plenty who like the way things are right now and have no inclination to see any change at all, even if it would benefit the many.

They would lose the there paid membership in an exclusive club - which is why the AR pistol and brace threatens them more than it does the ATF. There are a lot of apologetics going around stating "what did you expect?" when the real question should be "why do we tolerate this infringement on our Rights?"

Bad enough one forum is closing threads with the disclaimer that holding a buffer tube to the shoulder is "criminal activity." Do you support that conclusion?

 

[Tom Servo]

I didn't realize someone was privy to the number of applications being submitted and the hiring practices of the ATF in the last two years.

Any links to those facts?

Yep. The ATF sent an email to dealers a few weeks back on the matter. Here are the relevant parts:

As a result of recent changes in state laws concerning certain National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms and devices and other factors, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has experienced an exponential increase in NFA applications in recent years and months. For example, in fiscal year 2005, while ATF processed nearly 41,600 NFA applications, by 2013 that number had skyrocketed by more than 380 percent to more than 199,900 applications. The increase is significant because of the volume as well as the short period of time in which applications have spiked.

We'll skip the stuff about how badly the eForms system crashed and burned.

ATF will take aggressive steps immediately regarding eForms and existing paper application processes. Measures already taken include the following:

• ATF has surged staffing availability to seven days per week to process both eForms and paper applications. As a result, ATF has already reduced the backlog of applications from more than 80,000 to 73,700, an almost 8 percent reduction in the total backlog since March 20, 2014. Monthly processing volume has increased from 17,200 to 23,600 per month due to the surge, representing a 37 percent increase in form processing.

• ATF is immediately hiring 15 additional staff to assist in processing NFA applications. In addition, another 15 current staff members are cross-training to assist with NFA application processing.

• Staff from across ATF have been recruited to assist in backlog processing.

• ATF has prioritized Form 3 and Form 4 paper application processing, as appropriate, while we are bolstering eForms capabilities. This action will ensure that the highest volume of pending applications is given higher priority and that industry needs are met.

• ATF has engaged world-class private sector companies to assist in enhancing eForms capacity and functionality to provide industry with the most efficient service possible.

So, there's that.

There are plenty of threads and videos showing the pistol is as effective as the SBR. Functionally they are identical in all other respects - except for a flat vertical surface on the rear to stabilize holding it against the shoulder.

Yep. There are tons of videos. If you do a Google image search on "Sig brace," you'll see picture after picture of people using them as a stock. People were all over social media extolling the virtue of the brace as a stock.

Is it any wonder the ATF took a dim view?

My contention is that for every Brace sold, there was a Stamp application put off, and that is what caused the major reduction in wait times.

I just provided data to the contrary. Do you have something to back up your theory?

On the other hand, there are those who are reminding us that the NFA is a discriminatory and unConstitutional act to deprive citizens of their 2A rights, and imposes a "poll tax" that only allows those "approved" to pass muster and own a firearm that for millions of others would be illegal to possess.

That's not news. It's been the case since 1934.

If you have a credible plan to propose legislation or litigation to change the situation, I'd love to hear it. If your plan is to flaunt the law, it's not going to do much good.

 

[dogtown tom]

First, the AR community began to realize the only difference between an AR pistol as a toy range gun and a stamped SBR was 1) a stock 2) the stamp.

Seriously?
Either you haven't been paying attention or you never bothered reading the NFA subforums on this website or any other.

Heck, I knew about SBR's forty years ago.

 

[Tom Servo]

Heck, I knew about SBR's forty years ago.

This is part of the problem I've been seeing the last few years. We have a new generation of shooters who are enthusiastic about getting involved. That's great!

What's not so great is that they assume we haven't already been fighting these battles, sometimes for decades. These aren't new laws. The reason they still stand isn't because gun owners are do-nothing "Fudds." It's because the framework hasn't been there to challenge them until very, very recently.

When it comes to the NFA, we're not there yet. Folks need to stop poking the bear until the time is right.

If anything, this whole mess is a symptom of that. It should also stand as a lesson.

 

[Kimio]

Tim from The Military Arms Channel made an excellent video showcasing the dangers of this letter issued by the BATFE.

I already wrote my state reps and the BATFE, sure hope more get active. Though I fear too many will be apathetic to this, and all it will take is one case of someone getting arrested to effectively ruin everything even further.

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