ATF just ruled your "tactical" shotgun illegal

[Christchild]

Thank You, Mr. Brent! I didn't click the link. I could have and read further, but the topic wasn't a surprise. I was WRONG about the details but it was not a surprise, considering all things.

ThreadJack is over! Carry On!

 

[mycrobyte]

The Saiga 12 as imported then wouldn't be affected, but as modified would be?

I'm already planning on getting one - they are amazing weapons, and the drum mag makes them really fun to shoot.

Do you think those drum mags will be gone soon then? Probably should get one now I suppose.

 

[gyvel]

Presumably, Norinco 97 Winchester trench gun copies will fall under such a ruling because they have bayonet lugs???

 

[Technosavant]

The Saiga 12 as imported then wouldn't be affected, but as modified would be?

Not likely.

I've been doing more reading on this, and my guess is 922r and its parts count will apply to the S12; it's discussed a bit here and there.

Thing is, as it is imported, the S12 is perfectly legal, since it is "sporting." If you make it nonsporting through a conversion, you need to have 10 or less imported parts. The S12 has about 13, maybe 14 (if threaded for chokes), parts as-is (according to the usual ATF count). Most conversions would mean swapping out no less than 5 parts (trigger group is 3 parts, plus the buttstock and pistol grip). Use US made mags, that's 3 more.

Basically, use a US made trigger group and stock/pistol grip, and you're fine. Mine currently has 7 US parts swapped out (the 5 I mentioned, plus the handguard and muzzle device), so either way I'm fine.

Here's a bit of a discussion on this, and from what I can tell, this will be nothing new for us.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Actually, look at the definition of "Destructive Device" in 921(b):

"(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter;"

If it isn't a sporting purpose for importation purposes and the Attorney General is the sole person to make the determination, what stops it from being applied to domestic shotguns and making them NFA weapons.

 

[AKsRul.e]

I have read the NRA analysis and the study itself.

I have NO Confidence in the BATF being fair or Sporting

I believe they will attempt to ban any imported shotguns which can ACCEPT detachable magazines or drums.

FYI K-VAR is showing NEW Saiga shotguns that have
railed handguards on their website.

http://www.k-var.com/shop/home.php?cat=
.

 

[Technosavant]

I believe they will attempt to ban any imported shotguns which can ACCEPT detachable magazines or drums.

Didn't read the document, did you?

The ATF sees no difference between tube magazines and detachable magazines when it comes to "sporting purposes." Fact is, the S12 mag doesn't change out as quickly as some think, and tube mags can be loaded more quickly than some think. I don't blame you for not trusting them, but seeing as how they've gone on record, I'd expect them to be consistent within their own line of thinking.

As for K-Var, they're probably doing like others who sell converted Saigas (like Tromix)- depending on the parts count to keep them legit. As Bart says, there's a potential opening for them to declare ANY nonsporting shotgun (be it domestic or imported) a Destructive Device, but I'm not sure they'd go that far- that's a big step.

 

[oneounceload]

If it isn't a sporting purpose for importation purposes and the Attorney General is the sole person to make the determination, what stops it from being applied to domestic shotguns and making them NFA weapons.

What stops it is YOU supporting the NRA, writing your Congressperson and Senator so they know to tell the AG NOT to do it.

 

[TheKlawMan]

Domestic vs Import Ban

What is the rational for banning imported weapons but not domesticly manufactured weapons with the same characterisitics. All I can think is allowing domestics protects US jobs. As for international trade law, I assume there is an exception in treaties to allow a country to regulate the import of weapons.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

What stops it is YOU supporting the NRA, writing your Congressperson and Senator so they know to tell the AG NOT to do it.

I agree that this needs to be done; but in planning terms, we should realize that the Attorney General has a great deal of broad discretion over what constitutes "sporting purposes" and that the courts have consistently upheld that discretion.

As I see it, this means that the decision is solely up to the executive branch on how to apply "sporting purposes." Neither Eric Holder nor his boss care much for firearms as a rule. In addition, his boss is in a position to veto any attempt by Congress to rescind such authority or narrow the discretion regarding what consitutes "sporting purposes."

If the Obama Administration wants this, they are going to get it. My main hope is that instead of creating a surefire winner for the NRA come 2012, the ATF will instead take a look at IPSC and USPSA and apply a more realistic definition of "sporting purposes." Unfortunately, I think we can all agree that is optimistic at best.

 

[Rufus T Firefly]

Any study or proposal bugs me.

It just starts off with things we don't need until it gradually grows bigger and we all have to eat salads and not buy meat per the current administration.

 

[Brit]

Some Country's have rules that preclude IPSC all ready, movement with Gun in hand loaded (Military and Police only) but they do not have a Second Amendment, only the USA does.

The one thing that these anti gun people, Obama/Holden flabbergast me with, the big young Americans that carry, to protect them! They have guns, all kinds of guns.

Who will step in front of a bullet for them, bit of a biased view yes?

 

[TheKlawMan]

Brit. What "big young Americans" are carrying guns to protect "Obama/Holden"?

 

[kozak6]

Secret Service?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The problem is, I don't see how you apply this sporting purposes test to only imports. The language of 921(b) makes it clear that any device expelling a projectile with a bore greater than 0.50" is a DD unless the AG determines it has a sporting purpose.

I don't see how the AG isn't going to ultimately apply the same criteria to domestic shotguns at some point. The gun banners will demand it and it may be necessary from a trade perspective.

I think we need to start writing Congressmen and Senators to bring what pressure we can now. It seems clear the Administration isn't quite done tilting at windmills.

 

[Poodleshooter]

Keep preaching the word. The sporting purpose clause of the destructive device definition in 921(b) is far more perfidious than the sporting purpose clauses in 922(r) and the various import sections.
Every shotgun owner should know that even their little single shot 20ga can be taken away on the whim of the Secretary of the Treasury with absolutely no legislative or judicial action being involved.

 

[Pezo]

Guns with these features are designed for and are used for self-home defense. I could care less about my shotguns "sporting purpose". The 2nd amendment is about defense. These batfe people are way behind the times or are voicing their opinions from England. Sporting purpose had nothing to do with anything.

 

[TheKlawMan]

Poodleshooter; Could you explain why you feel as you posted about 921. You referenced 921(b), but I believe you mant 921(a)(4)(B). I may be wrong as these nymbering of these long code sections can confuse.

 

[TheKlawMan]

Pezo; Should I be permitted a fully functioning M60 to defend my home?

 

[Pezo]

(m60?)imo yes. At least open up the machine gun registry per nfa. Shotguns are common means of self defense and have been for years. Those listed accessories can and do aid in that goal. The 2nd amendment is not about sporting and does not mention "over 50 caliber" rules.