ATF and pistol braces ?

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rickyrick

New member
I came here out of confusion.

I did not fully realize that there had been a rule change, until stagpanther’s post in the semiauto forum. It’s been a long year and half and haven’t kept up with current events.
When I googled the topic, the result was that I must surrender, destroy or register the firearm.

Reading through this thread I see that just destroying any braces in your possession will suffice.

I have a very small brace which had the only purpose of helping the gun stand up in the safe like the rifles. Never used it to aid in shooting in any way.

I find it very concerning that there may be lots of Americans that will become unwitting felons because of this.
 
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JohnKSa

Administrator
I'm not a lawyer. I'm under the impression there is a presumption of innocence till proven guilty of a crime. Did we give that up?
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What I wrote above isn't a commentary on how I think things should be, it's an explanation of how things are based on my understanding of the situation.

Ok, that said, as far as I can see, the presumption of innocence is still there. That is, even if you COULD assemble your parts into an illegal configuration, you are still presumed to be innocent if there's any possible way that you could assemble them so that they are legal. You only get into trouble if you have a combination of parts and NO possible way to make them into a firearm that is legal/unregulated.
A two gallon can of gasoline in the shed for the lawn mower is not a crime,even if (in some strange mind) I COULD do something nefarious with it.
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Right.
 
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stagpanther

New member
Here's the elephant in the room--(in my opinion):

The entire cornerstone that AR pistols are based on--unless you purchased one that was completely assembled and the serial number was registered at the time of purchase as being a pistol (not "other")--is the whole (ridiculous) idea that the receiver was "born" into a first incarnation as a pistol receiver.

No procedures or basis of proof guidance was ever given as to how to prove that.

Now I can see myself in court being asked by the prosecutor:

"Mr Stag, you have a large inventory of AR parts, and guns in various configurations, including several barrels that could be readily made into unregistered SBRs"

Me: "Sir, I bought those receivers and barrels and I swear that the first time I ever put a barrel into the receiver (took its viriginity, so to speak)--it was in a pistol configuration. I even took pictures the day I assembled the pistol."

Prosecutor: "Obviously anyone can do that with any receiver--can you provide any soiid proof or witnesses to the entire procedure from the moment you purchased the receiver that would conclusively preclude simply using any receiver that happened to be lying around, regardless of its previous barrels inserted?"

Me: "Well, I'm a nice and honest guy, you'll have take my word for it.":D:D:D
 
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Nathan

New member
A two gallon can of gasoline in the shed for the lawn mower is not a crime,even if (in some strange mind) I COULD do something nefarious with it.
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But a 2gal gas can and you post on “TheFiringLine.com” ……=terrorist. Red flag order coming with SWAT this afternoon! :D
 
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44 AMP

Staff
Also better check and see if your state has a "fuel capacity feeding device limit" as well! :eek::rolleyes:

We do our best to comply with the laws AND the regulations, but some days its hard.....

As I understand it, (and I could be in error,) if you have a "Stock" (the artist formerly known as "Brace";)) that is not, and no longer can be attached to your pistol, its not a problem.

This is what the ATF always did with "stocked pistols". You could have a Luger, or Mauser Broomhandle or a Hi power, AND its stock, PROVIDED either the gun or the stock was modified so they could not be attached together. You didn't need to destroy the stock, as long as it couldn't be attached to the pistol, the ATF no longer cared about it.

That being said, do keep in mind that "past performance is no guarantee of future actions" and the ATF has a long history of "changing its mind" about these things.

Take the brace off, do something to it so it cannot be reattached and then repurpose it for some other use, or toss it, in the scrap bin, if it isn't on the gun, and can't go on the gun there is nothing to make a case of "unregistered SBR" on.

Just my opinion, and in no way valid legal advice.

Maybe get a second "former brace", and mod them both to make a nice shelf with them....

:D
 
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Nathan

New member
I find it very concerning that there may be lots of Americans that will become unwitting felons because of this.
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I’m pretty sure they already are felons….according to how the law works. Rules from the supreme leader are less clear. May is the end of some grace period. Then they say they have no intention of enforcing it….well, until they do.

I guess I’m struggling with the new concept where you order Congress to pass a law. They don’t do it. Then from the position of “supreme leader” you demand your people start arresting law abiding citizens for what YOU say is illegal. Then you don’t actually arrest them. Hmm…

Trump did it with bumpstocks. Biden doing it with braces.

What keeps him from just declaring all gun owners without government permission as felons? I’m not really getting the nuance here. Remember, guns will never be banned because then “private armies” cannot be formed to protect important people.
 
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Aguila Blanca

Staff
Gentlepersons, we are straying from a discussion of laws and regulations into conjecture and political conspiracy territory. Kindly remember why the former Legal and Political discussion area had to be closed down. Let's not have the same thing happen here.

In other words ... just fly the mission.
 
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Rothdel

New member
So as Aguila suggested in an effort to get back on track can anyone provide a current update in terms of what one needs to do to stay legal based on where the situation is today?

Also if you apply for the free tax stamp can you only use a pistol brace or can you convert to a more conventional stock?
 
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Screwball

New member
Rothdel said:
So as Aguila suggested in an effort to get back on track can anyone provide a current update in terms of what one needs to do to stay legal based on where the situation is today?

Also if you apply for the free tax stamp can you only use a pistol brace or can you convert to a more conventional stock?
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You are in possession of an unregistered SBR… options include remove brace to keep it a pistol or register it as an SBR on the ATF’s website that is dedicated to the rule. ATF is not going to move on anything until 6/1. If you have a submitted Form 1 for the braced pistol, you are “in compliance” after the end of the amnesty. It states that you just need to submit it to keep the brace, not get it approved.

Once submitted, it transfers to your eForm account and you will get it as any other Form 1… minus an actual stamp (it’s an approval, you didn’t pay the tax, thus cannot get the tax stamp).

I have 5 out of 6 back… all of those 5 are now running stocks. It is an SBR. ATF has that info on their FAQ section on the rule page.
 
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sfwusc

New member
I have some questions about the from 1

Does any picture of the RP work?

Do I need to submit a picture of the braced pistol?

Description and the reason : Is saying you are registering a brace pistol due to the ATF rule work?

CLEO : Do you just list the sheriff or do you call them to see if they have a person in the department that handles these things?

Electric Documents : If you are just a person and not a Trust, then you don't have any of these right?


Side note : this is a pain.
 
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stagpanther

New member
For those still interested, the first preliminary injunction request has recently failed. Something about not meeting the need for a preliminary injunction.
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I have to guess that the people actually following this ruling carefully are actually a very small percentage of overall AR pistol owners--I haven't seen any mention in widespread commercial media about it. I think a whole lot of people are going to end up felons without having an idea why.
 
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zeke

New member
stagpanther said:
I have to guess that the people actually following this ruling carefully are actually a very small percentage of overall AR pistol owners--I haven't seen any mention in widespread commercial media about it. I think a whole lot of people are going to end up felons without having an idea why.
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i certainly couldn't disagree with that. Am also gonna comply, even if disagreeing.
 
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stagpanther

New member
i certainly couldn't disagree with that. Am also gonna comply, even if disagreeing.
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I already converted all my AR pistols to rifles--not worth it to me to worry about. Just my choice--not saying anyone else should cave and do the same. Now I'm contemplating how to convert my regular AR's into bolt action rifles--which I figure we're about 5 years or less away from dealing with.
 
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dogtown tom

New member
sfwusc I have some questions about the from 1

Does any picture of the RP work?
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No.
It needs to be "passport style" meaning a headshot from the front.

Do I need to submit a picture of the braced pistol?
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Not required, but ATF may request a photo to verify that markings on the firearm are what you say they are.


Description and the reason : Is saying you are registering a brace pistol due to the ATF rule work?
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"Any and all legal reasons"


CLEO : Do you just list the sheriff or do you call them to see if they have a person in the department that handles these things?
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It's not necessarily the sheriff. Silencer Shop processes more NFA forms than anyone and doesn't send them to sheriffs.
The instructions on every paper Form 1 or 4 lists who is considered the CLEO.

Just send it to the one you want and addressed to the CLEO......not to his Chief Assistant Administrative Assistant. Then forget about it. You don't need a receipt.


Electric Documents : If you are just a person and not a Trust, then you don't have any of these right?
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Probably not.


Side note : this is a pain.
 
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dogtown tom

New member
stagpanther
I have to guess that the people actually following this ruling carefully are actually a very small percentage of overall AR pistol owners--I haven't seen any mention in widespread commercial media about it. I think a whole lot of people are going to end up felons without having an idea why.
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Same thing happened in 1934.
 
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rickyrick

New member
I already converted all my AR pistols to rifles--not worth it to me to worry about. Just my choice--not saying anyone else should cave and do the same. Now I'm contemplating how to convert my regular AR's into bolt action rifles--which I figure we're about 5 years or less away from dealing with.
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This rule change almost caught me off guard. But by Tuesday night, I will no longer have an AR pistol.

I figure that one day I’ll have to convert ARs to bolt-actions too, lol.
I would think that removing the gas tube and installing the gas block 180deg will make them a straight-pull bolt action haha.
 
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44 AMP

Staff
1) It's internet news....:rolleyes:

2) It's from ABC.com.......:eek:

3) it contains numerous factual errors, and opinion presented as fact....and some statements I would consider actual lies....:mad:

It is a piece of crap, not worth paying any attention to...(my opinion)
 
Z

zeke

New member
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