ATF and pistol braces ?

stagpanther

New member
Not popular, but no one corrects me when I say not a single person uses it for the intent that was submitted to allow the brace...
I wouldn't be so quick to be dismissive of something that potentially falls under the Americans with Disabilities Act--a powerful law that even the government can--and has--been sued for violating. I think a better way to put it is that the intent of the assistive device has been exploited by those who clearly do not have a disability--like people who park in handicap spots who obviously have no handicap.
 

TunnelRat

New member
Aguila Blanca said:
I think not. I'm sure Stag Arms isn't selling an entire category of AR-15 "Other" firearms with smooth bores.

https://www.stagarms.com/products/stag-15/other.html

Three of the products on that page list barrel twist rates. I don't think they're smoothbore. In the product video it seems to be the combination of an attached vertical grip, overall length, and the lack of a true stock.

I know Franklin Armory played around with barrels without traditional rifling in the form of the Reformation.
 

dogtown tom

New member
JohnKSa How does that work?

The NFA "Other" category specifically excludes pistols with rifled barrels, does it not?

"Other" is a category of firearm on the Form 4473, along with Handgun and Long Gun. (Que 24)

"Other firearm" refers to firearms that do not meet the definition of rifle, shotgun or handgun. It includes non NFA firearms such as frames, receivers, AR lowers and firearms with a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell. Certain configurations of firearms may be "Other firearms" because they aren't rifles, shotguns or handguns, yet do not meet the definition of any NFA firearm either.

An example is an AR with no shoulder stock and an OAL of more than 26" that also has a second vertical grip. Without that 2nd vertical grip it would be a pistol. If it has a 2nd vertical grip and an OAL of less than 26"?...its an NFA firearm (AOW). Such a firearm cannot have been reconfigured from a firearm that was originally a rifle or shotgun.

On the Form 4473, NFA firearms are designated as "Other" because they don't meet the definition of Handgun or Long Gun. All NFA firearms are marked as "Other" category on the Form 4473. (Que 24) and described on Que 4 as a Machine Gun, Destructive Device, Silencer, Short Barreled Rifle, Short Barreled Shotgun or Any Other Weapon. An Any Other Weapon or AOW is not the same as an "Other Firearm". There is no NFA "Other".
 

reddog81

New member
At this time, there does not appear to be any intent or push to regulate true arm braces or pistols equipped with them.

What's a "true arm brace"?

When this all came about I was researching it some and it seemed like almost anything that could be shouldered would qualify as a stock. Basically if you have to ask if it's a "brace" it is not a brace, but a stock. If you think there is no way it would qualify as a stock you might be able to squeeze through the regulations assuming sights and accessories don't push you over the points.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
I think not. I'm sure Stag Arms isn't selling an entire category of AR-15 "Other" firearms with smooth bores.
Interesting.
"Other" is a category of firearm on the Form 4473, along with Handgun and Long Gun. (Que 24)

"Other firearm" refers to firearms that do not meet the definition of rifle, shotgun or handgun. It includes non NFA firearms such as frames, receivers, AR lowers and firearms with a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell. Certain configurations of firearms may be "Other firearms" because they aren't rifles, shotguns or handguns, yet do not meet the definition of any NFA firearm either.

An example is an AR with no shoulder stock and an OAL of more than 26" that also has a second vertical grip. Without that 2nd vertical grip it would be a pistol. If it has a 2nd vertical grip and an OAL of less than 26"?...its an NFA firearm (AOW). Such a firearm cannot have been reconfigured from a firearm that was originally a rifle or shotgun.

On the Form 4473, NFA firearms are designated as "Other" because they don't meet the definition of Handgun or Long Gun. All NFA firearms are marked as "Other" category on the Form 4473. (Que 24) and described on Que 4 as a Machine Gun, Destructive Device, Silencer, Short Barreled Rifle, Short Barreled Shotgun or Any Other Weapon. An Any Other Weapon or AOW is not the same as an "Other Firearm". There is no NFA "Other".
Excellent explanation, as usual.

So the deal is that an "Other" has to be over 26" but the worksheet disqualifies a brace if it is installed on a gun that's over 26". The disqualification sort of makes sense because an "Other" is specifically made to be fired with two hands (part of why it is not a pistol and why it has the vertical foregrip) while the brace is designed to allow a person who can't use both hands to fire a gun with only one hand. The two things are contradictory so it sorta makes sense that you can't brace an "Other".

It looks like the people who bought an "Other" AR will not be allowed to put a brace on it. They will have to use it as it was designed to be used--with two hands.
My guess would be that's because Stag sells a boatload of these "others" and they don't want to see a profitable product line shut off.
The guns can still be sold and those that are already out there will not be illegal after the new law. If they are braced, the brace will need to be removed but the gun will still be legal with a bare buffer tube as long as the overall length exceeds 26".
What's a "true arm brace"?
That's what the new rule will define.
I wouldn't be so quick to be dismissive of something that potentially falls under the Americans with Disabilities Act--a powerful law that even the government can--and has--been sued for violating.
If they were simply saying that any arm brace doesn't qualify, that would probably get struck down. What is going to happen is a differentiation between arm braces (which will be allowed) and shoulder stocks, which have been illegal on pistols since 1934.

There is one possibility that I see--if a disabled person has bought an "Other" and braced it, they might have standing to successfully challenge the part of the rule that disqualifies braces on "Other" firearms.

The bottom line is that this is formalizing a law that has been around for over 80 years. I don't agree with that law, but it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that the government is going to push to enforce it and to deal with what are pretty transparent attempts to circumvent it.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
They would have specifically bought it advertised that way. There are some special rules that apply to an "Other" and if you bought one without knowing it, you could easily commit a federal felony without realizing it. For example, taking off the vertical foregrip converts it from an "Other" to an NFA item.
 

wild cat mccane

New member
One could easily commit a crime off a cheap Amazon purchase with AR pistol without someone telling them (foregrip, tube items). Law is (thankfully) fluid. Most important, the brace is new. Advances always come first, then law. Saying people couldn't know isn't the order of any advancement. That is true of most things. How in the world would anything advance if law had to be in place before hand?

What is especially not passing the logic test is people bought before law adjusted to manufactures purposefully using loopholes to escape the spirit of SBR law...well, you kinda know that's the point. I'm betting most of this category of buyer is MOST in the loop on gun stuff because they selected themselves to buy something that circumvents a $200 tax stamp for an SBR but has a lesser performing product (where a real stock is a better stock...cause people are using these as a brace which is/was the point of them not being SBRs...right?)

If anything, the makers/sellers of these stocks have been pretty caviler with not telling people that they were most certainly going to be challenged and, face value, were probably going to lose in the public eye that these aren't SBRs.

Maybe the guidance has been particularly slow and changing because "braces" have been so specifically floating the letter of the law that the spirit of the law needs to catch up. It's an SBR. Can't dismantle SBR law or intent behind SBR creation, so incrementally try on the technical language of SBR...no one said that would work. I don't fault ATF for this: it's the function of legal clarification.
 
Last edited:

TunnelRat

New member
wild cat mccane said:
I'm betting most of this category of buyer is MOST in the loop on gun stuff because they selected themselves to buy something that circumvents a $200 tax stamp for an SBR but has a lesser performing product (where a real stock is a better stock...cause people are using these as a brace...right?)

I would agree that many if not most of the buyers are in the loop. My earlier point, to clarify here, is that given the general lack of knowledge of firearm laws and the misunderstandings present even among those that are informed, again this thread is a good example, there are people that will end up committing a crime without the intent. That doesn't excuse them in the eyes of the law, but I do give some consideration towards it.

The cost of the tax stamp is not the only concern when building or buying a SBR/SBS. Keep in mind that the cost hasn't changed since the law was first passed, and adjusted for inflation $200 is $4224 today (https://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=200&year=1934).

The requirements around maintaining direct control of the firearm in certain range/social settings and the restrictions on travel with NFA items might be seen as more onerous than $200. Of course if a person has multiple NFA items then that total cost goes up. My point is there are logistical reasons around wanting a braced pistol that seemingly go beyond wanting to save money.

wild cat mccane said:
If anything, the makers/sellers of these stocks have been pretty caviler with not telling people that they were most certainly going to be challenged and, face value, were probably going to lose in the public eye that these aren't SBRs.

On this I very much agree with you. Back on November 24 of 2020 Ammoland Shooting Sports News ran an article detailing how the ATF had been sending letters to SB Tactical as early as July of 2018 detailing how only two of their products had been explicitly approved for use by the ATF, despite SB Tactical marketing seemingly applying that claim to all of their products for many years. ATF concluded the letter by warning that “SB Tactical must cease false advertisement of products as ATF approved which have not been evaluated nor approved.” The letter was signed by Michael Curtis, Chief of FTISB within ATF.

In the same article was another report from September 2020 on a classification determination for a submitted shotgun where the ATF stated, "SB Tactical has continued to market these accessories as “ATF Compliant,” which “has essentially left SB Tactical’s business partners … in the position where they are unknowingly manufacturing and marketing unregistered NFA
firearms.”

In short the article was rather accusatory against SB Tactical. By the enxt day, SB Tactical responded to Ammoland and author and the article was amended to include their point of view (and the title of the article became less accusatory). My impression from the evidence in the article (I have both versions of the article and the ATF letters that were linked saved) was that SB Tactical may have seen the legal writing on the wall since well before where we are now, but kept selling. You could argue this was simply to maximize profit in what they knew was a time-limited market, or to make these braces so prolific as to pass "common use" definitions. I don't know which version, if either, is true.
 

dogtown tom

New member
stagpanther

I wouldn't be so quick to be dismissive of something that potentially falls under the Americans with Disabilities Act...
Sorry, the ADA has absolutely nothing to do with Federal laws regarding firearms. It is a federal law that prohibits discrimination based on a persons disability.

Matter of fact..... the term firearm isn't mentioned once in the ADA.









JohnKSa

If they were simply saying that any arm brace doesn't qualify, that would probably get struck down.
Based on what? Certainly not the ADA because it has absolutely nothing to do with arm braces for firearms.
The ADA prohibits discrimination based on a persons disability and requires certain employers to provide reasonable accommodations to employees with disabilities, and imposes accessibility requirements on public accommodations.








There is one possibility that I see--if a disabled person has bought an "Other" and braced it, they might have standing to successfully challenge the part of the rule that disqualifies braces on "Other" firearms.
Standing based on what?:confused:
Having a disability doesn't get you an exemption on federal firearms laws any more than a disability would exempt a person with a handicapped sticker out of a traffic ticket.
 

44 AMP

Staff
To further cloud the "disability" waters, consider this, where is the denial of rights? Seems to me that has to happen to have standing to challenge the law.

NOTHING in the numerous laws says anything about the right to easily (or cheaply) use a given product, and a person who needs a brace for medical reasons isn't being denied one, even if the one they WANT is ruled a stock, there is still a legal path to ownership and use as an NFA item.
 

stagpanther

New member
If you deny the right to use firearms to a diasabled vet by prohibiting the use of a brace outright--you are effectively discriminating against him if in fact the use of the firearm is denied or unecessarily encumbered to him/her as a consequence. It doesn't matter if there is only one in the entire US (and I bet there are more than that); that would still be discrimination. It does not suffice to say "well, he could could use a firearm at a bare minimum with only a fixed rest, assistant etc and so on"--the intent of the ADA is that everyone has the equal opportunity and accessibility to whetever is otherwise a right or service provided to the rest of the public.
 
The primary focus of the ADA is equal access to buildings, facilities, and programs, not tools. Arguing that a particular firearm is protected under the ADA is like arguing about whether or not a DeWalt power drill is accessible to and usable by the handicapped.

If you haven't actually read the ADA, I suggest doing so before deciding that something is covered by it. I have read it -- in my work, I have been an accessibility advocate for 40 years, starting well before the passage of the ADA.

https://www.ada.gov/law-and-regs/ada/
 

stagpanther

New member
Arguing that a particular firearm is protected under the ADA is like arguing about whether or not a DeWalt power drill is accessible to and usable by the handicapped.
Didn't say that. What I said was if the stabilizing brace is effectively "outlawed" it would in effect discriminate against a disabled shooter--for whom it was originally designed. It doesn't discriminate against a tool--it discriminates against the disabled vet's ability to shoot, hunt and or otherwise enjoy the same kinds of activities the rest of us without those injuries can enjoy.
 

dogtown tom

New member
stagpanther If you deny the right to use firearms to a diasabled vet by prohibiting the use of a brace outright--you are effectively discriminating against him if in fact the use of the firearm is denied or unecessarily encumbered to him/her as a consequence.
Nonsense. Absolute nonsense not backed up by any law or court decision.
Having a disability doesn't mean you get to ignore the laws everyone else has to abide by. Me being unable to use a revolver like Jerry Miculek doesn't mean I'm going to shout ITS DISCRIMINATION!!! Me being unable to dunk a basketball isn't discrimination. Me being unable to hold an AR Pistol without an arm brace isn't discrimination either.

Being unable to fire a particular firearm without an "arm brace" isn't discrimination. Discrimination is telling a person that they cannot use your gun range because of their race, religion, sex, national origin, sexual orientation, gender identity OR because they have a physical or mental disability. Discrimination is refusing to sell a gun to a Muslim, a black man, or a woman......because they are Muslim, black or a woman.


A vet with no legs can't claim DISCRIMINATION!!!! because the Boston Marathon won't let him enter and compete in his automobile of choice. It would be discrimination of they didn't have a wheelchair or powered wheelchair division.




It doesn't matter if there is only one in the entire US (and I bet there are more than that); that would still be discrimination. It does not suffice to say "well, he could could use a firearm at a bare minimum with only a fixed rest, assistant etc and so on"--
You are correct, it doesn't matter......if it was actually discrimination. It ain't.;)



the intent of the ADA is that everyone has the equal opportunity and accessibility to whetever is otherwise a right or service provided to the rest of the public.
Which disagrees with what you wrote above. "Equal opportunity and accessibility" isn't the issue with using an arm brace that may be deemed illegal or require NFA registration.

A disabled vet has to follow the same federal firearms law as everyone else.
 
Last edited:
stagpanther said:
What I said was if the stabilizing brace is effectively "outlawed" it would in effect discriminate against a disabled shooter--for whom it was originally designed. It doesn't discriminate against a tool--it discriminates against the disabled vet's ability to shoot, hunt and or otherwise enjoy the same kinds of activities the rest of us without those injuries can enjoy.
I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think your position is supported either by the language of the ADA or by the body of case law that has evolved around it since it became law.
 

HiBC

New member
[/ I'm betting most of this category of buyer is MOST in the loop on gun stuff because they selected themselves to buy something that circumvents a $200 tax stamp for an SBR but has a lesser performing product (where a real stock is a better stock...cause people are using these as a brace which is/was the point of them not being SBRs...right?)
QUOTE]

To your question of "Right?" I answer, "No,not right" . I don't speak for anyone else. I have seen pix of AR "pistols" that look to me like tricked out SBR's.no doubt. If lines get crossed, the "catching up" you describe should/must work both ways. If the BATF or any LEO discovers a non-compliant AR pistol,the response should be a "Warning:Equiptment repair order". The goal should not be criminalizing people. Provide a clear statement of the non-compliance,suggest acceptable remedy, and give a reasonable (10 day?) time to comply. If there is a second offense...things can get sticky.

Where, IMO, your logic goes wrong is that "All AR Pistols use the brace to defy the law"
I don't have a brace. I have a bare naked pistol buffer tube. Plain iron sights. No forend grips. I even have Colorado compliant 15 round magazines.
Now I just want to be left alone.
 

reddog81

New member
If anything, the makers/sellers of these stocks have been pretty caviler with not telling people that they were most certainly going to be challenged and, face value, were probably going to lose in the public eye that these aren't SBRs.

I don't fault ATF for this: it's the function of legal clarification.

The ATF has said the sale and use of the braces are legal and do not change the classification of the firearm. The original manufacturers received clarification before marketing these items. This fiasco is the ATF's fault.
 
Top