ATF and pistol braces ?
- Thread starter kymasabe
- Start date
If you possess all the parts to assemble an NFA firearm without the proper paperwork, and the only possible way for you to assemble them is into an NFA configuration, that's a problem. If you have a legal way to assemble them so that an NFA configuration is not the result, or if you have the proper paperwork, it's not an issue.
At the moment a brace is now just a quirky rifle stock. Honestly, that is what most people purchased them for. As long as you have rifle uppers, you can defend possession of a buffer tube / brace assembly as a "spare stock" for a rifle. As long as you have a rifle to use it with, you can keep it. Just do not combine it with a pistol length upper after the 120 day grace period.
Removing all of your braces and discarding them (not just stashing them in your attic) should be about a safe as you can get. Or does it?
The "Constructive Possession" can still get you in trouble. Let say you toss all of your braces but keep one or more assembled bare buffer tube pistol(s). Then later you get rid of all of you rifles and rifle uppers, but still have spare AR parts. In your spare parts bin is a rifle buffer and stock. Since the only gun you can assemble with the rifle stock is a unlicensed SBR, you can be run through the ringer if caught.
This issue has been around for a long time in the TC Contender world. Possession of short barrels and possession of rifle stocks can be ok as long as you can assemble a gun with a 16" barrel. Just pay attention to the the right sequence for acquiring these items and the right sequence for getting rid of items.
Removing all of your braces and discarding them (not just stashing them in your attic) should be about a safe as you can get. Or does it?
The "Constructive Possession" can still get you in trouble. Let say you toss all of your braces but keep one or more assembled bare buffer tube pistol(s). Then later you get rid of all of you rifles and rifle uppers, but still have spare AR parts. In your spare parts bin is a rifle buffer and stock. Since the only gun you can assemble with the rifle stock is a unlicensed SBR, you can be run through the ringer if caught.
This issue has been around for a long time in the TC Contender world. Possession of short barrels and possession of rifle stocks can be ok as long as you can assemble a gun with a 16" barrel. Just pay attention to the the right sequence for acquiring these items and the right sequence for getting rid of items.
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stagpanther
New member
Like in Minority Report.
I've already ordered 16" replacement barrels to be done with this silliness.stagpanther
New member
Therein lies the rub--the only way to 100% assure that is to have none of them. In one hand I have lots of stocks/braces. In the other hand I have xx amount of short barrels. One or the other has to go in the brave new world. I'm ditching the short barrels since I'm not going to license each instance.
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That's not true at all. To have one and avoid any issues with constructive possession, you only need to be sure you have at least one firearm you can assemble it to without creating a regulated/illegal item.
For example, if you have a rifle that it fits, and the rifle's overall length is long enough to satisfy the law with the brace installed, then you have checked the box and don't need to worry about constructive possession.
The only time you need to worry is if you have one and there is no way to install it onto any of the firearms you own without creating a regulated/illegal item.
Alternatively, you could insure that the brace can't be attached to any of the pistols you own by modifying the brace so that it can't be installed on any of them. That also avoids any possible issues.
I came in here late mostly because being in CA this does not effect me or at least I think it doesn’t.
Regardless, what do you have to pay the tax and register for or to ? Does the pistol braced firearm stay a pistol or if the pistol brace stays it must be registered as a SBR ? If sbr , doesn’t that mean it can never be a pistol again ?
Regardless, what do you have to pay the tax and register for or to ? Does the pistol braced firearm stay a pistol or if the pistol brace stays it must be registered as a SBR ? If sbr , doesn’t that mean it can never be a pistol again ?
dogtown tom
New member
No, it doesn't.
ATF has made it abundantly clear of the options nonlicensee's and licensees have in regards to a pistol with an attached arm brace.
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/stabilizingbracefinalrule-sec508-v2pdf/download
We know.
As has been posted a half dozen times in this thread, all you need to be legal is have one lawful configuration for the arm brace.
If you have a rifle with a shoulder stock, you could certainly attach your arm brace to the rifle and use as a shoulder stock or as an arm brace.
dogtown tom
New member
The rub is you don't understand what is legal.
All you need is one lawful configuration. Ie, a 16" bbl w/OAL of 26".
I weep for mankind if thats what you think is your only option.
dogtown tom
New member
ATF hass determined that AR type pistols with an arm brace are now considered Short Barrelled Rifles and regulated by the National Firearms Act.
That means the possessor must register the firearm on a Form 1 as the maker of an NFA firearm. Normally there is a $200 tax, but during the forbearance period the tax payment is not being collected.
A pistol w/arm brace is an SBR as of 1/31/23.
Remove the arm brace and it remains a pistol.
Oh ok so if registered as required, you can switch back and forth from SBR to Pistol all you want .
What are some of the other implications of having an NFA item . Selling it must have some restrictions? What about use , can you loan it to a friend or must you keep possession at all times ?
What are some of the other implications of having an NFA item . Selling it must have some restrictions? What about use , can you loan it to a friend or must you keep possession at all times ?
Metalgod, those are answers readily available all over the internet.
Here is a good guide: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/national-firearms-act-handbook
Here is a good guide: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/national-firearms-act-handbook
I'm sure there are better informed people than I on this subject, all I can tell you is I've heard there are some kind of notification requirements if you want to take it out of state, but don't know the details, sorry.
I do know that an SBR can only be sold to someone else with the NFA SBR approval. Friend of mine had an SBR Tommygun (semi auto) when he got tired of it, he found a willing buyer (instate) and it only took the ATF 10 months to approve the sale (transfer) so the buyer could pick up the gun.
This was about a decade ago, so no idea what the rules and wait times are today. You could ask the ATF....if you trust the validity and constancy of their answer. Personally, I no longer do....
44caliberkid
New member
From the beginning of the “AR pistol” it was always my understanding that the pistol buffer tube was legal because it was a plain tube, no rails or threaded holes to attach anything. The Sig pistol brace was one of the first ones out (approved) and you had to wrap electrical tape around the pistol buffer tube to make it stay on with a friction fit. It was still too short to be useable as a stock. Wasn’t comfortable as an arm brace, and now you had a firearm strapped to your arm, impractical. Then some guys started using rifle buffer tubes because they were longer, didn’t have the adjustment rail on the bottom like carbine tubes, so still just a plain tube, right? But it had a threaded hole in the end (an attachment point) so to me, it was wrong, a violation. Then the next generation of pistol braces started coming out and they used carbine buffer tubes and were adjustable, everything I had been told was a no no. I never bought one. All my pistols have pistol buffer tubes and nothing else, which no one ever questioned as legal.
dogtown tom
New member
Or if first a pistol, to a Title I rifle.
Pistol>SBR>Rifle>Pistol anytime you want and no oneat ATF needs to be notified.
NFA firearms are subject to the transfer requirements of federal law.
A Form 4 and $200 tax submitted to ATF. Once approved you can hand it to the buyer.
It depends on how you filled out the transferee section of the Form 4 or the maker section of the Form 1.
An NFA firearm possessed by an individual, may be used by anyone not otherwise prohibited from using firearms.....but the lawful possessor must be present.
An NFA firearm possessed by a trust, LLC, corporation, may be used by anyone considered a "responsible person" in the trust document, or LLC or corporation documents. The "RP" can allow anyone not otherwise prohibited to shoot while the RP is present. A trust/LLC/corp can have an unlimited number of responsible persons.
dogtown tom
New member
WAS a good guide in 2009, but has not been updated in fourteen years.
ATF needs to update and keep it updated or delete from their website.
dogtown tom
New member
ATF has never held that the buffer tube has to be a smooth pistol tube and in fact has held that a normal carbine tube is perfectly fine or an AR pistol.
Thanks Raimius I’ll check it out but on the other hand . If we all looked up the answers on the internet our selves , there’d be no need for forums like this
Over 10 years and thousands of post . I’ve given my fair share of answers around here . I think I’m worthy of a question or two plus this does not effect me enough to research it my self but I am interested enough to ask the question
Over 10 years and thousands of post . I’ve given my fair share of answers around here . I think I’m worthy of a question or two
plus this does not effect me enough to research it my self but I am interested enough to ask the question
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The new rule makes it sound like a buffer tube that is longer than it needs to be for function could be an issue.
"In contrast, material on a firearm that extends the rear surface area of the firearm toward the shooter but is required for the cycle of operations, such as an AR-type pistol with a standard 6 to 6–1⁄2 inch buffer tube, may be an indicator that the firearm is not designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. "
"Likewise, an extended AR-type pistol buffer tube, which is a longer buffer tube than the standard buffer tubes required for the operation of the firearm, or the inclusion of spacers that extend the length of pull, are also examples of the addition of material to the rear of a firearm that provides surface area for shouldering and extends the length of pull to effectuate shoulder fire. "
I'm not going to claim that the rule explicitly states that carbine/rifle tubes are a problem--because I don't see a clear statement to that effect. I'm just saying that given the wording of the rule, the safest option for an AR-15 pistol would be a smooth (no attachment points or stops, no padding, etc.) pistol buffer tube no longer than 6.5". Also, if the design doesn't require a buffer tube for function (some don't--especially rimfire versions), then one should not be installed.