Assessin' My Needs

[Elvis]

Hi Jim,

Thanks so much for your help in selecting a trail gun for me. The idea of a Tracker is a moot point, at least for now, because I accessed CA DOJ's Website of approved handguns for sale in CA. The Titanium Tracker is not on the approved list. Thank God that after my spending nearly two decades as a cop that I have DOJ protecting me from "unapproved" handguns . Anyway, for now the Tracker is not a possibility.

I am leaving in a few short minutes for a hike/shoot. I am going to chronograph a few .357 Mag loads out of a 4" 586. I also have some Hornady 180 grain XTP reloads that I want to try. Then I'm gonna try penetration tests. Jim, as a hunter myself, I know how critical penetration is when affecting a humane harvest. And your recommendation about where to shoot a charging bear is precisely congruent with what other hunters have told me. Apparently a charging bear will stop dead in its tracks and retreat after suffering substantial injury to its nose/snout area. However, should that be the case the job is not nearly done because one would have to finish the job lest another hiker find him/herself face-to-face with one pissed off bruin. Therefore, ultimately a gun big enough to finsih the job is necessary.

A 10MM semiauto will work, I'm sure, against any black bear. But, Jim, wouldn't you be of the opinion that a stoutly loaded .45 ACP, i.e., a 230 grain bullet at 980 FPS, will be just as effective? By the way, Hodgdon reloading manual lists such a .45 ACP +P load. So this is a very realistic option. And a .45 ACP is cheaper to shoot. It seems to me that not only is 10MM ammo more difficult to find and its selection meager, it is damn expensive. Therefore, should I find myself in the High Sierras and ammoless, I want to be able to find some w/o selling my fishing equipment in order to afford it.

I am with you on your assessment of a .357 Mag. However, I do believe a .44 Mag is even better, and slightly more so that a .41 Mag, which is a damn good trail gun in its own right. But it suffers from the same malady as does the 10MM: high ammo cost and limited selection/availability.

If I am limited to SS wheelguns, it'll probably be a 5" or similar size .44 Mag. But I just cringe at the thought of shelling out my money to S&W and Ruger. If I go the .45 ACP route I'll limit my selection to SS models. I need a corrosion resistant gun due to the fact that I'll be using it around water when fishing, and hot, sweaty conditions when hiking.


Take care,
Elvis

 

[Tamara]

Well, the stainless Tracker is (of course) heavier than the Ti version, but it's still an L-frame-size gun, which gives it a size/weight advantage over any commercially-offered .44 Mag.

My roommate has a batch of Cor-Bon's 265gr hard-cast .41 Mags that are well in excess of 1000fps, but that load is sadly discontinued. 10mm offers Cor-Bon's 200gr Penetrator load which has greater sectional density (and more velocity) than any .45 ACP load on the market, and then there's the 10mm Express loadings from Texas ammo.

Still and all, you have to decide how heavily you want the gun to be biased towards bear and away from humans. In the city, I don't mind a five-shot wheelgun as much because very few bad guys are going to stick around for five or ten shots which will almost certainly summon The Heat. This may not be true in the boonies. A six- or seven-shot L-frame size gun (686/Tracker/GP100) in stainless, launching 180gr Partition Golds or even Georgia Arms' excellent 158gr "Deerstoppers", might be just the ticket.

 

[biere]

I think the 10mm enters into the 41 magnum power range, but for the hottest loads I think the 41 magnum outdoes the 10mm.

I bought a used 20 with some non-neutered mags. So where you might have 5 rounds in the revolver, I would go for 15 in the glock. And 20 or 29, the mag works in either. Of course they sell for around 100 bucks each though. But even with 10 rounders you doubled your revolver capacity.

I can get 10mm locally and on the net, but it is not a wally world round.

I think you need to make sure if you are after a wheel gun or semi-auto and then decide on a power range. Ammo is pretty close in price for premium rounds that I decided not to worry about it. You can get blazer 10mm for plinking and there are some other cheap rounds as well.

For ohio I have little bear concerns. I decided long ago to go for capacity since the 10mm with good loads covers all I am interested in.

If I was truly worried about bears, I would most likely be looking at a 6 shot 44 magnum, but that is big and heavy. 15 rounds of 10mm would most likely be chosen over the 41 magnum you are considering as 3 times the number of rounds should help equal things out.

If you have to buy the 45acp, I would say go ahead and buy a 10mm instead. I like the 45 acp, but feel the 10mm offers more options.

 

[Jim March]

Elvis, if you shoot through the nose or front teeth of a bear with solid hunting .357s of 158 grains plus, it'll penetrate all the way through the snout and into the brainpan, resulting in a one-shot kill.

I wasn't recommending you just annoy the dang thing .

Could that shot be done with .45ACP? Maybe. But maybe not - see below.

It's even possible to do this with hot 9mm hardball. On a GRIZZLY. Although there might be a measure of luck involved.

The other question is, what if it's not charging YOU, but charging somebody else instead? Or you miss the head when he's charging you, and nail the shoulder instead? If you're defending somebody else the bear is charging at, will you be close enough to make a brain-shot on that bouncing head, or will you have to settle for a shoulder shot to slow it down while you run up close? It's that latter situation where the .44Mag or equivelent .45LC+P will REALLY shine. With .44Mag on a black bear, nailing it in the shoulder will slow it down pretty good, for a bit anyways. Enough to get off more rounds. .357 hardcast hunting fodder will at least punch deep enough to have a *chance* at delivering hurt...anything else, esp. a JHP of some sort in .45, probably won't.

See, unless you roll your own, nobody makes super-power .45ACP+P or whatever hardball. And round-nose ammo isn't what you want anyways...a big flat nose does more damage and drives "straight and deep" without veering off-course in the target. If you use very hot hunting JHPs, then yes you might be able to make a brainpan shot - but would you be able to punch deep in a shoulder hit? I consider it unlikely. That's why the wheelguns usually rule the roost as far as hunting things that bite back.

I'll take non-expanding flat-nose hardcast .357 hunting fodder over more or less ANY JHP for bear, unless we're talking about hunting-grade JHPs in a .454Casull/.480Ruger/Linebaugh or something. You don't stop bears with blood loss, you stop 'em by breaking something important, right now.

Preferably the brain.

 

[Elvis]

Hi Jim,

It appears to me that you have a lot of knowledge about hunting. I agree with everything you have written. A Keith type bullet in a .357 Mag would be my choice, too.

I did take my old 586 out for a spin today. Interestingly enough, before I actually shot it I ran into my old friend who is the game warden that patrols the area in which I primarily hike. He told me the bears are out now, but he hasn't had any incidents so far with problem bears.

Out of a 4" barrel, the W-W 180 grain Supreme bullets chronographed at 1103 FPS, with no expansion after going through 2 telephone books, or about 8" of tightly compressed phone book paper. These recovered bullets were just slightly deformed with no separation, and were otherwise unremarkable. I was impressed with the sectional density of these Partitions. The Hornady 180 grain XTP in front of 14 grains of H110 also completely penetrated the aforementioned medium. They were chronographed at 1135 FPS, and every indication was that this was not a maximum load. They were recovered, and expansion of them was approximated at .50 caliber. The core was loose from the jacket, but separation had not occurred.

While a stoutly loaded .357 Mag is no slouch when facing black bear, I do think a much larger caliber handgun is the ticket when frequenting bear country, i.e., the Sierras. I know that if any gun I select as a trail gun becomes too cumbersome to carry I'll find reasons to leave it behind. This is the reason the Tracker is so damn appealing. That and the fact that the .41 Mag is not all that inferior to a .44 Mag. A good Keith type bullet in a .41 Mag should effect results similar to a .44 Mag.

Anyway, to date I think I will not be buying another .357 Mag. If CA approves the Ti Tracker series anytime soon, I'll get one in .41 Mag. If I don't get a Tracker, and I rule out a SS 1911A1, I just might get a 5" .44 Mag. With 300 grain Buffalo Bore bullets in a .44 Mag, I'd guess I'd have about as much bear protection as I could resonably expect while retaining modicum of tactical ability.

Guns are much more easy to select when one limitis their application. It is when one attempts to apply a gun to more than a specific situation that quandaries develop. And that pesky 10MM keeps showing up as a very viable trail gun.

Jim, your point about defending another person from bear attack (my son) is well taken. When we're hiking he's never too far away form me. However, when fishing we're often on opposite sides of streams...not a good idea in the Sierras.


Take care,
E