Assessin' My Needs

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Elvis

New member
Here's the scoop:

I often take my kid hiking in the mountains of the greater Los Angeles area. For those unaware of this area, it is heavily populated with dangerous critters, from Mojave Green rattlers on up to huge back bears, with mountain lions and bobcats lurking beneath the shadows of rocky outcroppings, especially near creeks and streams...places where kids love to play. Then we have the crime problem of the national forests of So Cal. The Angeles Nat'l Forest has the highest crime rate, including murder rate, of all US national forests.

Now I know this will be a shock to many of the posters here, but the only handgun I carry, well, most of the time anyway, even while hiking, is a twenty year old Model 60 loaded with five 158 grain .38 Special LSWCHP bullets. While I would consider this the absolute minimum for bipedal animals, it would be ridiculous for me to even remotely assume it would do more than piss off a black bear. BTW, in the vicinity of one of So Cal's prettiest hiking areas two problem bears were shot and killed while attempting to break into vacation residences; one weighed over 450 pounds. It is very common for bears of the Angeles National Forest to weigh over 400 pounds.

My Model 60 is a choice borne of convenience...it is so light I don't even notice its being there. I do have a 4" 586, but it weighs considerably more, and I am not so sure a .357 Mag is the best choice going for my application. That leaves a .40 S&W and a .45 ACP. These, too, are heavy guns, but they do afford more fire power than a .357 Mag.

I guess what I am doing is trying to justify a new gun. Turners, a large outdoor sporting goods store in So Cal has 5 1/2" barreled .44 Mag Vaqueros on sale for $300. While this would be about perfect for bears and such, it just ain't a tactical weapon. Another consideration is the nascent .45 Super. Here I can get a lot of fire power in a relatively easy to carry handgun, and in this configuration I would be well armed for wild critters as well as the bipedal specie. Anyone here at TFL have experience with a 1911A1 style .45 Super? Do you think such a combo would work for my application? What manufacturer produces the best .45 Super? Additionally, I might consider a light 4" barreled .357 Mag loaded with bullets meant for hunting such as Remington's 180 Core Lokts. Any ideas here? A light Model 66 TYPE might be the way to go.

So what should I do? Remain fat, dumb, and happy with a very light Model 60? Use one of my other handguns? Or buy a new one? Additionally, I would use this gun while fishing in the High Sierras, but here its application would be strictly for bears and lions.


Adios,
Elvis
 
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Ala Dan

Member in memoriam
Greeting's Elvis,

While I'm very fond of old, vintage Smith & Wesson model
60's, it's a little light for backpacking on the Southern Cal
trail's.:eek: In using a .44 magnum for a trail gun, I would
prefer a 5" Smith & Wesson model 629 "Classic" over the
Ruger. Reason? The double action capeability.

Now, if you don't want to lay out that hard earned cash
I would load up my Smith & Wesson 586; with the hottest
factory load's that I could find. This firearm should do well
to displace man or beast, if the need arise's. Sorry, to hear
of the murder rate in the mountain's of a national park. I
guess it just goes to show us that NO PLACE is off
limit's to the bad buy's.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
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jwise

New member
I have always considered the .357 mag the top-performer when in the company of autos (9s, 40s and 45s.) This is especially true when discussing the different loads available for critters that provide deeper penetration. So, if you're going to stay w/ what you have, load up that .357 maggie as hot as you can w/ the best penetrating hunting bullets you can find and strap it on.

If you want something new, you just might consider a 10mm auto (Glock 20, 29?) It's got LOTS of juice, and great penetration for those bears and cats (light weight and lots of firepower.) The 45 Super would work just as well, I guess. I have no personal experience with them, nor any hard data in front of me.

Now, if you were speaking of a trail gun for brown bear country, think .44 mag, and nothing smaller. I carry the Vaquero 5.5 stainless in .44mag, and I feel confident with it (even though its SA.)
 
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juliet charley

New member
Three-inch S&W Model 65 and Georgia Arms "Deer Stoppers"--158-grain GDHP@ 1475 fps (six-nch barrel)--might a workable compromise with decent power and decent "carryability." It should handle bipeds and lions handily and bears maybe (probably with good hits?).
 
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dairycreek

New member
I hunt with a handgun and often hike...

in the forests of the great Northwest! I have had only one opportunity to have to shoot a blackbear in my entire 65 years! And, for that one time, I am sure glad I had a 44 magnum 'cause that bear was running AT me not away from me! Based on my experience my opinion is that the the .357 is really too little gun if black bears are at all a possibility. Yes, I know a 44 mag may not be the lightest thing to carry on the trail but, if you really need it, it is surprising how light it becomes. My current trail/hunting weapon is a 5.5" bbl., SS, 44 magnum, Ruger Redhawk. I know, a J frame it ain't but it sure gives me a lot of confort when I am in the woods with black bears. LOL! Good shooting:)
 
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Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
Lightweight... potent caliber... enough barrel for some velocity...

Did you know they make that Taurus Tracker in .41 Magnum in a Total Titanium version? A 4" L-frame-sized DA gun in all-titanium construction, packing 5 .41 Mag rounds; talk about a gun that was tailor-made for hiking in black bear & cougar country.

An alternative would be the *&* 396 Mountain Lite, but it's a .44 Special with an aluminum frame, which won't stand up to the kind of loads that the all-ti Taurus .41 Mag will.
 
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slabsides

Member In Memoriam
Those California black bears must be a lot tougher than Maine's! Any excuse to buy a new gun, and any of the alternates suggested by other posters would serve. My 'bear' gun is one of two Ruger .41 Mags.
HOWEVER: your chance of having to stop a monster bear are really quite remote...and that nice old Model 60 (I have one too...it has lots of milage on it and it's still a favorite carry piece) will serve for all but the most extreme defensive emergencies...more than adequate for vermin of the upright kind, cats, rabid this-and-thats, and what-have-yous...IF it's loaded right. I gather you dont handload. (If you want to spend some money on better shooting, I would suggest buying a loading outfit rather than a new gun) The Model 60 is a stout little gun and can handle the heaviest loads with the HEAVIEST bullets you can procure, and will do for most of the uses you mentioned. Of course, your .357, loaded with 180-grain Federals or Winchester/Noslers, will take down most stuff...even really big stuff...out of even a 4" barrel. So you're already well-equipped, as I see it, and don't really NEED another gun. Of course, WANTING is another thing entirely! :)
 
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Elvis

New member
I've been thinking a lot about this. Hiking season in So Cal is here, and there are lots of fantastic places to hike besides Disneyland, Knotts Berry Farm, San Diego Zoo & Wild Animal Park, the coastline, Hollywood/Downtown L.A., Santa Monica, etc. The San Bernardino, San Gabriel, Santa Ana, and Santa Monica Mountains are all beautiful in the spring and early summer. The Sierra Nevadas are regal and glorious at all times save the winter.

If I were to limit this to bipedal vermin I'd about have this straight. However, I am trying to find the most suitable weapon for wild animals and criminals. My quandary stems from the fact that I have always been of the opinion that one should choose either a fighter or a bomber but not a fighter-bomber. Should I buy a gun for bear or one for child-stealing vermin? I sure has heck know I ain't carrying two guns up and down 10,000' peaks!

Tamara, no, I did not know about the Tracker. It sounds like just what I need. I have healthy respect for the .41 Mag, and I'd bet my last ducak that bears do, too! I also have had my interest piqued by those opining a .44 Mag, and the 10MM idea. All of these guns would be just right, I reckon. For now, I think I will go with my 586 because it is as close as a dual purpose weapon I have for the applications as written. I will go with those who have recommended stout loads, and I'll look into your recommendation, JC. I like the idea about carrying speed loaders...I have two as this was once my on-duty weapon; thanks Kermit. I know the .44 Mag would certainly dissuade a black bear, and this is probably what I am going to buy, either an S&W, Taurus, Redhawk, or other similar make. However, I have an firm idea that when I pick up a Tracker the DROS will commence. :p

I do know that my Model 60 is not up to the task of protecting my kid from danger. In fact, I might be considered irresponsible for carrying it instead of a more appropriate gun. I can rationalize the hell out of it being just fine for my life, but not my kid's. I know that those of you with kids know just what I mean. In fact, this God forsaken state makes it very difficult for honest citizens to protect their loved ones with the best equipment suitable for the job, unless, of course, you're in a special class; which is disgusting if you were to ask me. :mad:

Anyway, for this weekend's hike it's going to be my 586. In the meantime I'm heading to Turners to look at new guns. BTW, since my kid is now old enough to hike, his mom, my wife, will buy into the necessity of my buying a new gun suitable to protect him.

Tamara, about how much will a Tracker set my wife back?


All my best,
Elvis
 
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Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
Around here, steel Trackers go for four and change while the total-ti ones go for five-and-a-half bills or so.

Good-looking wheelguns, too, with that slab-sided full-underlug barrel.

Specs & stuff.

M425TT.jpg
 
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Lennyjoe

New member
Oh and by the way. I have owned a .357 SS 4" tracker in the past and it was a very nice weapon. Good shooter, comfortable grips, nice sights and the porting helped with muzzle flip. Rode just fine in a Bianchi accumold holster. Wore it all over the desert when I was out trecking around with no problems.
 
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Elvis

New member
Tamara,

I have done preliminary research on the Tracker. I like this gun! Now that I have identified a possible gun that will fit my requirements of a dual purpose trail weapon, I have expanded my caliber choice to include the .357 Mag. The Tracker in .41 Mag holds five rounds. While certainly more powerful than a .357 Mag irrespective of M&S, the .357 Mag model holds seven rounds. This would certainly have more tactical appeal in the event of bipedal critters. Additionally, seven rounds in the gun and two speed loaders gives me 21 rounds as opposed to 15 under the identical configuration in the .41 Mag.

With seven 180 grain hunting bullets in a .357 Mag, while certainly no .41 Mag, should prove formidable against black bear, and it should be more than suitable as a tactical weapon. Both weigh nearly the same at 24 oz, and that makes either choice perfect as a trail gun, especially when hiking the higher elevations of the Sierras, San Gabriels, and San Bernardino Mountains.

I have fired hunting loads in both a 629 .44 Mag and a Freedom Arms .454 Casull, and the recoil of these weapons along with their shear size eliminates them as tactical weapons. Did I mention that in heavy handguns these cartridges kick like fierce mules? My point is that full power .41 Mag loads in a 24 oz weapon will probably border on being damn unpleasant. However, heavy .357 Mag loads in a 24 oz weapon will probably still be manageable thus aiding accuracy of follow-up shots.

Ammunition is far more easy to obtain in .357 Mag than .41 Mag, and the cost of the former will allow me to practice with it more frequently. But the .41 Mag's power is a fact that just can't be ignored.

So, with my requirements for a trail gun in mind, would I be better served with a Tracker in .357 Mag or .41 Mag?

God, do I pray I don't run across a damn nice .45 Super before I buy my trail gun. Nine 230 grain bullts at 1100 FPS in a compact 1911A1 design will demand my continuing this research project.:)


Adios,
E
 
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Eric Larsen

New member
IMO, the 41 mag is, for you type of need/use, the best round out there. The Tracker is an excellent gun....even the 415 snubbie.

You may want to stay away from the Ti version of the 415....I didnt shoot it, but saw a guy shoot one at a local range and lets just say....it surprised him. :eek: He is a regular shooter of 357 snubbies......

The stainless 415/Tracker would be an excellent choice ....I would take the added energy of the 41 over the extra capacity of the 357.....IMO.
Shoot well
 
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Elvis

New member
Eric,

The more I think about it the more inclined I am to align myself with your way of thinking. The .41 Mag is far more a bear gun than the .357 Mag. I went to a outdoor sporting goods store yesterday, and while they didn't have a Tracker in stock they do carry Taurus products. After my being told by the salesman that they didn't carry the Tracker series I later wondered if this state of morons hasn't approve it for public sale. I don't want to go there now because it just pisses me off to no end that what I might want to buy has to be approved by a bureaucracy. Thank God I have access to such an omniscient bunch that will prevent my buying what I want :mad: .

Anyway, I did leave that store with a box of W-W Supreme .357 Mag 180 Grain Partition bullets. Boy, the title of that round sounds impressive; however, after arriving home and removing one from the box, the .357 Mag, even with "hunting" bullets, just is unimpressive when one considers the prospect of a bear harassing my kid. And when my kid fishes he gets fish smell all over himself. I don't want a hungry bruin mistaking him for a Fillet-o-Fish buffet, and if one were to do so I want more than a .357 Mag to dissuade it.


Eric, I do believe you're steering me towards the stainless flavor of the Tracker, in .41 Mag, of course. This might be the way to go considering recoil. The appeal of a titanium gun is its light weight. In other words, I will be less prone to not want to take it with me. But if I go with stainless, would I then be better served with a .44 Mag? In that configuration I could get even more power, have access to a greater array of ammo that is more widely available, and use .44 Special rounds in it for practice.


Tomorrow on our hike I will have my 586 with me loaded with the aforementioned W-W loads.


Adios,
E
 
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Elvis

New member
Check this out: I went to Winchester's Website where I saw their law enforcement loading for .45 ACP +P, not to be confused with the .45 Super. Their loading for the +P with a 230 grain HP has a velocity of 980 FPS. 8 of these in a magazine and one in the chamber of an extremely easy to carry and totally reliable gun will, I should think, work on even the most persistent black bear. I think I will keep a full-size SS .45 ACP in the running for my perfect trail gun. It seems to me that a gun such as this is as close to a dual purpose trail gun as I can imagine

I do not want to use this post as a vehicle to debate calibers, but for the life of me, M&S not withstanding, I can not think of a more widely useful caliber than the venerable .45 ACP!

As a much as I espouse the virtues of a 1911A1, I am not all that up on the nuances of the guns produced by various manufactures. I want a copy of Colt's reintroduction of the 1911A1. But can you believe that this venerable firearm that has served our country for many years and in two wars and lesser conflicts has not been approved by this state for us to own? Funny to think that the military can use it yet that is not good enough for CA. Is CA trying to infer that it is more versed in firearms than our military? Anyway, I can not legally buy a copy of this gun, thank you CA liberals:mad:. But there are others that are approved for sale in CA. So, what's a good quality full-size SS .45 ACP?

As I have delved into this endeavor I have come to realize that I would be foolish to make a hasty decision. And to think I was pretty certain that the Tracker in .41 Mag was what I needed when I walked into Turners yesterday. Maybe it was destiny that they did not carry it.

Based on the research I've done to date and posted here, what is the opinion of a SS .45 ACP as a dual purpose trail weapon? If I should eliminate if from consideration, why? I do know that the .45 ACP is one hell of a personal defense round...in my opinion the best there is:cool:. Any wonder why the King of Rock 'n' Roll carried one?


Adios,
E
 
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Eric Larsen

New member
You cant go wrong with a good stout 45+P. The capacity issue and ability to be carried are great points. It would serve as a great all around trail/defense gun.
For Bear I would still lean towards the 41/44 mag. You have a very valid point why a 41 mag when there is the 44 mag.? Its a practice in balance..its close to a .357 in gun weight yet has close to the same energy as the 44 mag with factory loads.
41 mag ammo can be hard to find and expensive..depending on where you are. In the case you already have a 44 mag....take it. For Bear...wouldnt dream of taking a .357 in its place. If the 357 is what you have for now...take it.

My line of thinking is the 41 mag is stout enough for anything you are likely to encounter, has the energy of a 44 for the most part and the gun weighs the as a stout .357. A revolver for me is what I would want in a trail gun. The Tracker is a stellar choice. :D

The only wheel gun I own is an SP101 snubby. My next wheel will be a 41 mag SS snubbie. Its small enough to conceal/carry well but has over 600 pounds of energy being sent to a Bear/BG
if this doesnt do it....I doubt anything will......:eek:
Shoot well
 
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Jim March

New member
To those who recommended putting .357Mags in his model 60: his model 60 snubby is so old, it's a .38 only...and he's correct in thinking it's not potent enough.

A Titanium .41Mag with stout bear-grade loads is going to recoil so crazy, you'd get faster shot-to-shot speed with the aforementioned Ruger Vaquero .44Mag SA. IF you're willing to spend the time to master the SA gun, that's not a bad choice.

Until you buy something else, stout 180grain loads in your existing 586 would be a fine choice. Penetration will be way better than even hot .45ACP at close to 1,000fps. I'd much rather have 7 rounds of .357 than 5 of .41Mag, especially since your ability to rapid-fire 'em at a bear's snout will be better in .357.

If you must do an autoloader, think 10mm.

Finally, you REALLY need to understand how a bear's skull is shaped. The "forehead" is no such thing: it's a solid lump of bone that anchors the jaw muscles. Everybody tries to shoot at it because that works on a human, and stuff just bounces off.

The brainpan is lower, down behind the snout. Aim for the nose or upper front teeth for best results.

Once you understand this, you can actually stop a Griz with 9mm FMJ, according to tests on fresh roadkill Grizzly skulls done by some Alaska cops.

Anyways. Point is, if your 586 handles well, you can shoot it, it's really all you "need". If you can afford better/more, probably a 7 or 8 shot .357 wheelgun would be cool, or a Glock 10mm with 10rd mags is the next step.
 
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