Are rights "absolute?"

labgrade

Member In Memoriam
re yanky's last:

I have no idea what an HK21 is. I'm not a "militry man" per se, but don't see how any shootin' platform comes into the mix in the least. & how would (I'll assume) full-auto matter? You have either "limited" yourself to your rights, & that of mine, or you have not. Why would the methodology, or tool, matter one whit?

Your owning of any armament would never endanger me if you "worked" within the framework of your own rights. On a bit of a limb here, but if you owned a nuke, how would that violate my rights? Only if you decided to violate mine, would you cross "the line."

At that point, I would submit, that you no longer have "the right," without due cause (THE definitive point, BTW) to either shoot me, with anything (or stab, hit, etc.).

Literally, you have the right to do anything that doesn't cause an initiation of unjustifiable force againt me.

& BTW, I do not consider the "right" to have a luke-warm cup of coffee "delivered to me so I don't spill it on my own crotch & burn my pee-pee" a "right." Some things do "evolve" into the realm of absurbity ..... :D
 

ahenry

New member
Webster’s defines absolute as: …completely free from constitutional or other restraint…having no restriction, exception, or qualification, Either a Right is absolute or it is not, there can be no “middle ground”, “qualification” or “restriction” to a Right otherwise it is not absolute. Further if it is not absolute, by necessity there must be some governing authority that can control or restrict that exercise of that Right and by extension you. This means that we in essence have no free will and are only acting as some higher power will allow. At first glance I suspect I am not making any sense, but hear (read) me through.

What is a Right? Rather than resorting to a stale dictionary lets see if I can’t define it. Regardless of your personal view on life, a Right is something that is either given by a Supreme Being, Nature, or something that you retain simply by your existence. However you believe that you derive these Rights, they all boil down to one solitary Right, the Right of Free Will and Action. All others grow out of the ability that all humans, by virtue of their creation or existence, have to choose their own actions separate from a controlling entity. Of course the world would be a pretty poor place to live in if the stronger ruled the weaker, and one never knew what the consequences of ones actions were, that would hardly separate us from common animals. Thus was derived a social contract and (depending on your personal view on life) a moral contract between an individual and God. That Social Contract is a voluntary submission to a controlling authority some measure of your Right to act. That authority might be God, parents, government, the workplace, anybody or anything, or any combination of authorities. The important aspect is that the submission of an aspect of your Rights does not negate the fact that you have that Right.

For instance, I have the Right to come TFL and make obscene comments (not because of the 1st amendment, as a human I have the Right to speak as I choose), just as TFL has the Right to refuse access to me based on my words. In order to enjoy the use of TFL, I choose to voluntarily submit my Right of word choice to the rules set up by the governing authority of TFL. Put another way, I enter into a social contract between TFL and myself. By so doing I agree to abide by the rules with the understanding that others will as well, and if they do not that the powers that be will take appropriate action. By entering into this contract have I absolved myself of my Right to speak in any manner I choose? Of course not! I still retain the Right of free will and action, just as TFL retains theirs. I can void the social contract between TFL and myself at any time, and either try to force acceptance on the part of TFL through some form of greater strength or realize that they might have the greater strength and deny me the use of their service. However the Right to choose whatever words I so desire is still mine.

The extension of the above argument is that I have the Right to act in any way I choose. “My Right to extend my fist does not end at your nose.” In order to live a more productive and less confrontational life I voluntarily (and tacitly as a member of society) agree to restrict my actions to offend as few as possible within reason. The important thing is that I retain and have the Right to act in any manner I choose with the understanding that society might remove me or limit my actions if I make the wrong choices unless I possess some form of superior strength to that society.
 

Erik

New member
Rights are abosute. A pretty popular concept on a website intertwined with the Second Amendment.

So you support the right of felons, even the real nasties, to keep and bear arms? Tomorrow you're going to start lobbying your elected representatives to "put guns where they belong- back in the hands of felons!" I'm sure that a few sullen looking lifer-poster boys could be dug up.

No? But you believe rights are absolute, don't you?

Or perhaps the concept of absolute rights is not as popular as I thought after all?
 

Thairlar

New member
Erik,

I firmly believe that if a felon can not be trusted with a firearm, they have no business being released from prison. We all know that making it illegal for criminals to buy guns makes little sense because criminals by nature care little about breaking the law. A person released from prison who can't be trusted with a firearm can probably get one anyway if they wish. Also, if they can't be trusted with a firearm, can they be trusted with any of the myriad dangerous implements that are littered throughout our society? They all have legitimate purposes as tools or whatnot and are rarely used for ill in comparison to their being used legitimately, just like firearms.
 

ahenry

New member
So you support the right of felons, even the real nasties, to keep and bear arms? Tomorrow you're going to start lobbying your elected representatives to "put guns where they belong- back in the hands of felons!" I'm sure that a few sullen looking lifer-poster boys could be dug up. No? But you believe rights are absolute, don't you?

Yes I do. I cannot find justification within the constitution for the prohibition of previously convicted felons from owning guns. Can you? Regardless, your argument doesn’t contradict mine. I was talking about social contracts and voluntary submission of the exercise of certain Rights in order to be a member of society and enjoy the privileges of such.
 

labgrade

Member In Memoriam
Missing the point of "rights are absolute" when talking about felons, et al, in this discussion.

You do have the absolute right, & so do they - until you/they violate those rights of another.

In no instance is any "right" spelled out that you can violate those of another. All rights detailed, at the least in the BoRs, are passive in every instance. The only time any "natural right" is active is when another violates your own.

Sure, & why not, could a felon (aside from all the most "recent" new & improved felonies) have possession of a (gasp!) weapon?

In what manner are they causing any harm whatsoever by mere possession?

Only if they violate your rights - & a major crux of the argument - when they extend their behavior beyond their own rights - do they violate yours.

Mere possession is in no way any violation of any of yours.
 

ds1973

New member
Caliban. Do I sense that you are a fellow objectivist? Have you read "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal"? the Virtues of Selfishness is a recommended prerequisite for it.

A right is a Freedom of action. It does not gaurantee results.

The primary right is the right to life, from which all others stem.

As an example, so called "right-to-carry" states have twisted the meaning of "right". It is not a RIGHT to carry if you have to apply for a permit. That is called a PERMISSION to carry. Vermont is the only Right to carry state that I am aware of. You have the freedom to carry. You do not need permission and the action of carrying a firearm around does not infringe on any one else's rights.

As Caliban said, you cannot initiate force when you deal with other men in society. The relationship between men must be one of mutual traders. Trading value for value.

Read Rand, she explains this all very well and in detail.

some good books are:

"The Virtues of Selfishness" (Rand)

"Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" (Mostly Rand w/ articles by others, including Greenspan.)

"Objectivism: the Philosophy of Ayn Rand" (by Leonard Peikoff)
 

Hippie

New member
I vote for absolute rights. Lab, Ahenry, and Thairlar put it all in proper context and understanding. Well done all of you:)
Another vote to get rid of the idea that rights can be taken from any human barring the use of due process . This means to me that any free man should be able ot defend himself and his family, not have money and property seized due to mere suspicion of a crime, and vote if he can find a canidate that doesnt make him sick to his stomach:)
This foolishness of our government rationing out different "rights" as they see fit makes em privileges, not rights. This concept started like a little snowball on the mountain top and is turning into an avalanche. How long before we are all caught in that trap??
Felons with guns??? Why not....as said before anyone wishing to do harm with a firearm can get em anyway, and any family can be put in danger due to NOT having a firearm. That NRA/ Government policy can get as many or more harmed or killed as its suppose to be saving!
Rights should be thought of as absolute...if not then they are simply rewards for socialy acceptable behavior...not rights.
 

Justin

New member
ds1973, pretty much guilty as charged.
I read 'Atlas Shrugged' during Spring Break last year, and it solidified a lot of things I felt on a gut level by pulling them into the light and examining them. Plus it was a cool story to boot.

This summer, I read through 'The Virtue of Selfishness' and found it enlightening, if not a bit dry at times. (I plan to go back and hit that one again.)

I'm currently working my way through 'The Fountainhead' I like it, but not as much as 'Atlas.' I also rented the movie version of 'The Fountainhead' and rather liked it.

In the last few months I've read books by Orwell, and L. Neil Smith. L. Neil Smith.
For economics, you can't beat Mises. Ludwig!

I can't say as I'm a big fan of Peikoff. I've read a few of the things he's posted on the web, and he strikes me as being a snivelling dweeb who exists to ride on Ayn's coattails. I could be wrong, but that's my impression.

As to 'right to carry' states, I completely hear what you're saying. I have a permit to carry here in Indiana, and got burned for it this summer. Long story short, a "newspaper" in Elkhart, Indiana published an online, searchable database of every CCW holder in the state. The listing for each permit holder included name, town of residence, and some other personal information.
I was in NJ at the time, and found out about it through TFL. I ended up making a few irate phone calls (along with a bunch of other TFL'ers :) ) and they took the database down.
Suffice it to say, I am no longer in support of 'shall-issue' carry permits, and consider them to be an unpleasant compromise that invades my right to privacy for no logical reason.

The only problem I seem to have encountered from reading so many books and such based in objectivist/rational thinking is that it seems the rest of the world is now run by ninnies, and I'm afraid that I will soon end up being a crotchety, cynical old bast@rd at the ripe old age of 23. :)
 

Seeker

New member
“My Right to extend my fist does not end at your nose.”

I disagree with this statement.

While I think you have every right to extend your fist, I beleive that right ends where my nose ends. I don't think that it's so much of a way to 'grease the wheels' of civil society but rather because each of us has the same rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness and that we don't have the right to take these from another (without due process and just cause).
 

Skorzeny

New member
labgrade:
Sure, & why not, could a felon (aside from all the most "recent" new & improved felonies) have possession of a (gasp!) weapon?

In what manner are they causing any harm whatsoever by mere possession?

Only if they violate your rights - & a major crux of the argument - when they extend their behavior beyond their own rights - do they violate yours.
This is a very unpopular view even among the RKBA crowd. However, it makes perfect philosophical and constitutional sense. A felon, by his incarceration, paid for his crime. After that, if he possess 1,000 fully automatic weapons, but does not harm anyone with them, what wrong has he committed?

It is, as you put it, when he commits a harm on another with the weapons (or without the weapons, for that matter), that a need for "justice" arises. It's never the instrument, but intent and action that are (or should be) "judged."

Skorzeny
 

45King

New member
Work in progress, Part1

The follwoing is an essay I have been working on and editing for the last 6 months or so. Please keep in mind that it is a work in progress.
Any suggestions, comments, etc are welcome, either via e-mail or publicly. Notice that Measures 5 and 6 are contradictory; I am still searching for a way to reconcile those two. It may be that the only way to reconcile them is to admit that rights are not 100% absolute, but rather are a "limited absolute" only when exercised in a responsible manner.
A solid definition of terms is certainly needed when discussing rights.

The Nature of Rights

Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition defines right: n., that which a person has a just claim to; power, privilege, etc., that belongs to a person by law, nature, or tradition [the right of free speech]

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language defines right: n., that which is due to anyone by law, tradition, or nature

These dictionary definitions are but a starting point. They define only in terms of syntax, but do not convey the full nature of a right.

The Measures of a Right
Measure 1: Rights are shared equally by all individuals.
Measure 2: Rights apply only to the individual.
Measure 3: The exercise of rights may be physically (but not morally) denied.

For example: Many people claim a right to hold an opinion. Forming an opinion is not a right, but rather the mechanical function of a normally operating human brain. Information is input, it is processed, and one forms an opinion based on that information. There is no way for any entity to stop an individual from thinking anything. A law passed forbidding people from thinking certain thoughts cannot be enforced, for there is no way to determine what a person is thinking without their voluntarily divulging it. One will think what one wants to think, and if one's opinions are "forbidden," one will simply not express them. This is where a right does come into play; the right of free speech, if recognized, allows one to express that opinion without fear of legal prosecution.

The fourth measure of a right: rights carry with them an inbuilt price tag; the responsibility of exercising those rights in such a manner as that their exercising does not infringe upon the rights of any other individual.
The irresponsible exercising of rights results in physical harm to another.
The irresponsible exercising of rights results in causing another to be deprived of his property, or its use, or causes damage to another's property.
The irresponsible exercising of rights results in infrigement of another's rights.
Such actions demand that the infringer be held accountable.

The fifth measure of a right: it is absolute. There exist no conditions under which any entity may morally infringe upon another's rights.

The sixth measure of a right: when one does exercise one's right in an irresponsible manner, one automatically forfeits certain of his own rights in so doing.

The seventh nature of a right: if a concept is a right, then an individual or groups of individuals can be held morally and legally accountable for its violation. If the responsibility for the violation of the supposed right cannot be laid squarely upon the shoulders of a particular individual, or group of individuals, whether known or unknown, the concept in question is not a right.

There are divisions of rights; natural rights, and civil rights. All civil rights are extensions of natural rights. The existence of civil rights is brought about by the existence of organized government in any form. If government did not exist, there would be only natural rights.
The first of all rights is the right to life. This can be expressed as follows: a person's life, and the fruits of their labor, are theirs to do with as they please.
The Declaration of Independence states: We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness-
One should love that phrase, "pursuit of happiness". It shows how thoroughly well-thought out the document is. The founders were well aware of the fact that no earthly entity can guarantee the happiness of any individual except that individual himself.
What is somewhat disturbing, however, is the fact that in the Bill of Rights to the Constitution of the United States of America, there is no mention of a right to life, a right to liberty, or a right to pursue happiness.
There is a reason for this: full recognition of these rights by any government automatically limits the powers of the government to such an extent that the government has no practical need to exist. As forward thinking as the founders were, the idea of individual rights being shared equally by all humans was still too new and too radical a concept for them to fully embrace all the ramifications. The right to life, for example, if fully recognized, precludes the possibility of ever placing any form of tax upon anyone unless such tax is completely voluntary, and carries no penalty whatsoever for opting to not voluntarily contribute. This in itself assures that government will at most be very weak, and at least be non-existent, due to a lack of funds for any activities.

A few examples of spurious claims of rights

Right to safety. It does not exist for any living entity. We live on a chunk of rock hurtling through space at tremendous speed. This space is occupied by other heavenly bodies hurtling around at tremendous speeds. Sometimes they collide, and destruction is the result. Even our own planet generates hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, fires, volcanoes, and earthquakes. Looking back over human history, natural disasters have claimed more lives than all the wars and crimes ever committed.
If there were a "right to safety," then anyone who is injured by such events has a legal claim against the entity which violated their rights. How does one sue, or arrest and try, the earth, the weather, an asteroid? Does one sue God?
One has a right to seek whatever security they feel is appropriate for their particular situation. This right is limited by the rights of another to do the same. This concept has been expressed as, "Your rights end where my nose begins." In terms of gun control, just because one person doesn't feel that a firearm is a good choice for personal security and chooses not to own one, that person doesn't have the right to keep his neighbor from owning one if that neighbor feels that it is a good choice for personal security.

Right to health care. Such a right can only exist if one pre-assumes a right to good health. If a right to good health does exist, then one's right to health has been violated if one is born with diabetes, or any other physical or mental defect. If such a right does exist, again, who bears the responsibility for violating that right? Does one sue one's parents because one is born with Down's syndrome? If no one can be held legally accountable for a violation of rights, it is because there is no right to be violated. (See the seventh measure of a right.)

Right to not be afraid. Again, no such right exists. Fear is an emotion which is part of every human's survival equipment. If one has a normally functioning brain, one will feel fear when a situation arises which could cause harm. Fear generates an actual biophysical response. The body manufactures adrenaline and endorphins. The adrenaline gives extra strength to the muscles so that if the individual decides to fight or to flee, he can do so more effectively. The endorphins help suppress pain so that the individual can continue to fight or flee in case of injury.
Fear is not necessarily a pleasant emotion, although under controlled circumstances, many people may seek it. (Examples: skydivers, roller coaster riders, bungee jumpers, etc.) Fear is a necessary part of the survival equipment any creature needs to live in a world where there is natural danger present at all times. Like it or not, this is the world we live in, and nothing will ever change it. Danger will always lurk in some form or another. As long as humans are capable of being physically harmed in any way, fear will be a necessary ingredient for their survival.
 

45King

New member
Work in progress, part 2

(con'td from previous reply)

Right to work. Yet again, no such right exists. Each individual has the right to seek gainful employment. Any entity offering employment has the right to put any set of conditions upon that employment they choose to. In short, if a company only wishes to employ non-smoking white anglo-saxon males between the ages of 25 and 45, then it may do so.
A business is not established for the purpose of creating jobs for those who do not have them; a business is established by the owners for the same reason that the people they employ seek jobs there; so that they can earn a living. Since the owners have incurred various risks that the employees do not incur, they have the right to hire and fire based upon whatever criteria they feel may best benefit their business and its ability to earn a living for them. The business is the private property of the owner(s), and as such, they have the absolute right to determine who can be there. They do not need any reason, valid or otherwise, to ask anyone, employee or customer, to leave and never return. Think of it in these terms: if someone is on one's private property, one has the right to ask them to leave. One doesn't need any reason for asking them to leave. If they refuse to leave, one calls the police, and the person is arrested for criminal trespass. When the case comes to trial, the judge will not allow the defense to ask why the plantiff wanted the person off their property; it is immaterial. The only pertinent facts are that the person was on one's property, they were asked to leave, and they didn't leave. They are guilty of violating that individual's property rights. The fact that a business is open to the public does not change the fact that is still privately owned property, and the same rules and rights should apply.

Right to not be discriminated against. This so-called "right" is pure balderdash and poppycock, the beginning of "thought control." We see absolutely no problem with one individual preferring to own a Chevy vs. a Ford automobile. We see absolutely no problem with a person preferring to wear blue as opposed to green. We see no problem with a person not liking broccoli, or liver, or whatever. These are all personal preferences, our expressing of our own opinions. As a general rule, people have no problem with an individual exercising discrimination as to what he eats, wears, where he lives, etc., but suddenly, when he attempts to exercise that same right in light of what type of people he wishes to associate with, it becomes a "bad" thing. Just as surely as an individual has the right to discriminate against the color green by choosing to wear blue, a person has the right to choose to associate only with those people he or she regards as acceptable, and not have anything to do with those types of people he or she regards as unacceptable.
Anti-discrimination laws as they exist in the United States today are a contradiction in terms. The only way to be non-discriminatory is to not give favor, through law, to any particular group over any other group or groups. There is no such thing as "reverse discrimination." Being told that one cannot have something because of gender, skin color, religious preference, sexual preference, etc, is discrimination, plain and simple. It matters not if the person being rejected is a homosexual atheist black female, or a heterosexual Christian white male. Anti-discrimination laws as they are written in this country today institutionalize discrimination. If the government fully recognized all the rights of individuals that it should, these laws would be repealed, and no attempt would be made to replace them. This would then allow individuals to exercise their natural right to associate with whom they choose to associate with, in both business and personal life.
Hate-crime laws are another example of governmental discrimination and another attempt to impose "thought control" upon individuals. If a homosexual is killed, why should it be worse that he was killed because the perpetrator disliked homosexuals, as opposed to his being killed because he had $2000 in his wallet which the perpetrator wanted? In either case, the same right has been violated; the victim's right to life. The reasons why the perpetrator chose to violate the victim's right to life is immaterial to the severity of the crime. The legal status of the perpetrator's motives should only be as circumstantial evidence that he committed the crime in question. Under our current system of jurisprudence, motive, means, and opportunity to commit any crime are regarded as being circumstantial evidence, and must be backed by physical evidence that the accused did indeed commit the crime. Hate-crime laws are an attempt to change the status of circumstantial evidence to solid physical evidence. The long-term ramifications of this are frightening. For instance, an individual who ever jokingly said he needed to rob a bank to pay his bills could be convicted of bank robbery on the "physical evidence" that he had the motive.

Lawmakers often claim that a law is necessary for the "common" or "public" good. A case in point would be asset forfeiture laws, such as the RICO act. Under this federal statute, if a landscaper has $10,000 cash in his pocket, police may confiscate it if he cannot show immediate proof that he obtained the money legally. The justification behind the law is that no one "needs" to carry around large sums of cash unless he is dealing drugs. Under this law, one's private property can be confiscated for no reason other than mere suspicion that one might be involved in illegal activity. One can regain the money, but under existing law, one first needs the permission of the federal government to sue. Then one can only sue for actual damages (the amount of money confiscated,) and cannot add punitive damages which could help cover the individual's legal fees and other expenses incurred in trying to recover the money. If one incurs $20,000 in legal fees and expenses in successfully recovering $10,000 of confiscated money, one comes out another $10,000 in the hole.
This law is made all the more incomprehensible and insane by the fact that under our system of jurisprudence, one is assumed to be innocent of any crime until it is proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the accused did commit said crime. For instance, a police officer might observe an individual beat another, and then take his wallet. The officer effects an arrest of the perpetrator, charging him with aggravated assault and robbery. The accused is assumed to be innocent of any wrongdoing, even though the officer directly observed the perpetrator violating the victim's right to life and the victim's property rights. Such status stands until the trial is concluded and the suspect is found either guilty or not guilty. In the meantime, the landscaper is assumed to be guilty of a crime, and is punished without ever being even charged, much less convicted in a court of law. Sheer insanity.
This law infringes upon multiple rights of every single individual in the United States. If it were truly for the "common" or "public" good, it would hurt only those individuals who actually infringed upon other's rights in some way. As it stands, it helps no one but the entity of government, and tramples upon the rights of every single individual residing within the borders of these United States. It hurts everyone, and helps no one. How can a law which hurts every individual be considered for any kind of good whatsoever? It cannot, at least not to a sane individual.
 

yankytrash

New member
One small suggestion, 45King - don't hand that to a liberal democrat professor and expect an 'A'. :D

Otherwise, good points. I think I'm going to print it out and let few certain people I know read it....
 

45King

New member
Yankytrash, it's not for a grade; it's just a collection of my thoughts on the subject that have been rambling around my head for the last 3 or 4 years.
 

Bud Helms

Senior Member
Angel,

Welcome to TFL. Long time no talk, bro.

Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome Angel Shamaya, the Founder and Executive Director of Keep and Bear Arms (KABA), a take-no-prisoners, pro-RKBA website. I know of no better place to go to get a daily digest of RKBA-related news articles.

- sensop
 

Incursion

New member
What do you guys think about monopolies? Does the government have the right to break up a monopoly? Monopolies will inevitably occur in a laisse faire economy.
 

Christopher II

New member
Incursion -

The government has no rights. Or, rather, the government has only the rights that the individuals that make up the government have. Life, liberty, property, maybe privacy, etc...

So the answer to your question is, no.

Sidenote, I'd disagree that monopolies are an inevitable occurance in a market economic system. Why would you say such a thing?

- Chris
 

Christopher II

New member
All -

This is interesting. I post it without further comment:

http://www.webleyweb.com/tle/libe151-20011210-04.html

Q: In your ideal society, what do you feel is the province of government?
A: First, let's define an "ideal society." The ideal is a free society in which its members exercise self-government guided by the Non-Aggression Principle:

"No human being has the right -- under any circumstances -- to initiate force against another human being, nor to advocate or delegate its initiation."

Since its very existence is predicated on the initiation of force, government -- as a concept -- in inherently immoral and therefore has no moral province whatsoever.

Q: What rights do you feel that you have under this society?
A: Believe it or not, I have no real conception of "rights." I have a substitute that works better. What most people think of as "rights" is any activity in which I might choose to engage that does not violate the Non-Aggression Principle. These are same "rights" I have under any society.

- Chris
 
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