AR rifle build. Use a pistol lower for flexibility?

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Pistoler0

New member
Hello,

I am thinking about building an AR rifle (barrel over 16" length) in 5.56.

Would it make sense to start off with an AR pistol lower such as this:
Palmetto Shockwave Pistol Lower, - No Magazine

for flexibility in case I'd like to turn it into a pistol in the future? What would be the downsides?

PS: I don't think we have any restrictions on AR pistols in Colorado (yet) except for magazine capacity limits.
 
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Nathan

New member
Somebody smarter than me will come along and post the link.....but the basics are that a lower is properly transferred as an “other”....regardless of the marketing on the part or box.

Once it is built, it becomes what it is....rifle or pistol. Once a rifle, it cannot become a pistol again.
 
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odugrad

New member
I'm not the smarter someone but wouldn't it be a bad idea to take a pistol lower and put a stock on it even if your barrel is 16"? Another way of asking, can you take a pistol lower, put a 16" barreled upper on it and run a stock? I know you can switch between rifle upper, back to SBR, back to rifle, etc. Not sure if it's different with a pistol.

I've always found the whole pistol thing to be clear as mud.
 
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Pistoler0

New member
odugrad said:
Another way of asking, can you take a pistol lower, put a 16" barreled upper on it and run a stock?
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Yeah, that's another good way to look at it.

Because if that is possible, wouldn't it be better to start any build from a pistol lower? Then you could turn it into a rifle or keep it a pistol.
 
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Pistoler0

New member
Nathan said:
Somebody smarter than me will come along and post the link.....but the basics are that a lower is properly transferred as an “other”....regardless of the marketing on the part or box.

Once it is built, it becomes what it is....rifle or pistol. Once a rifle, it cannot become a pistol again.
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But if I bought it as a stand alone pistol lower. Then put a barrel 16" long and a rifle buttstock. Shoot it for awhile.

1) this is legal, right? It wouldn't need approval or anything.
2) could I then take the barrel and the stock off after shooting it awhile, and legally put a brace and a pistol upper on it?
3) could I later take everything off and transfer just the lower as a pistol lower?

Because if I can do those three things above, then wouldn't it be better to start any AR rifle build from a pistol lower?

Or.... is it rather that I can never legally do 2) and 3) after I put the 16" barrel and rifle stock on the pistol lower?

I guess that a different issue is how on Earth would anybody find out, but I want to understand the legal boundaries.
 
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HiBC

New member
I'm not sure I follow your plan.

As I understand it,here is how it works. I'm not a lawyer or BATF official. I could get it wrong.

It can work just fine if you do not get clever and try a work-around. I go for straight up squeeky clean legal,myself.

If it was purchased as a rifle or a rifle lower, its a rifle. It cannot be a pistol.
If the maker of the receiver made it as a rifle receiver,that SN was made a rifle.

If you buy a bare receiver,it will come,and be sold,as a receiver that is neither a rifle or a pistol. It will say "Multi" for cartridge.
You may build a rifle or a pistol. If you first build is a rifle,you cannot later legally build it into a pistol.
Thats the law. Please don't ask me questions about "Well,what if I ...." I don't want to know,and I'm not going to help you.

If you find lowers for sale,why not spend another $150 and buy two?

You can have 12 different pistol uppers to pin on one pistol lower. You can have 12 different rifle uppers to pin on one rifle lower.

Thats squeeky clean legal. No problem.

These rules apply to Federal Firearms law ,to the best of my knowledge as a non-lawyer.
 
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Pistoler0

New member
HiBC said:
I'm not sure I follow your plan.

As I understand it,here is how it works. I'm not a lawyer or BATF official. I could get it wrong.

It can work just fine if you do not get clever and try a work-around. I go for straight up squeeky clean legal,myself.

If it was purchased as a rifle or a rifle lower, its a rifle. It cannot be a pistol.
If the maker of the receiver made it as a rifle receiver,that SN was made a rifle.

If you buy a bare receiver,it will come,and be sold,as a receiver that is neither a rifle or a pistol. It will say "Multi" for cartridge.
You may build a rifle or a pistol. If you first build is a rifle,you cannot later legally build it into a pistol.
Thats the law. Please don't ask me questions about "Well,what if I ...." I don't want to know,and I'm not going to help you.

If you find lowers for sale,why not spend another $150 and buy two?

You can have 12 different pistol uppers to pin on one pistol lower. You can have 12 different rifle uppers to pin on one rifle lower.

Thats squeeky clean legal. No problem.

These rules apply to Federal Firearms law ,to the best of my knowledge as a non-lawyer.
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It's not a plan yet.
And I know that AR lowers are cheap, so you are right that it makes sense to have a few.

But I just want to know if a pistol lower can do double duty as a pistol and a rifle.

Suppose I have just one pistol lower (with a pistol S/N), and also
- one pistol upper and a brace
- one rifle upper and a rifle butt stock.

Stagpanther said in post #6 that it is ok to use the rifle parts on the pistol lower.

From what you are saying, it sounds like once the rifle upper has been on the pistol lower even just one time, the pistol lower can never again legally be mated with the pistol upper. Am I understanding it correctly?

It is like if contact with the rifle upper legally pollutes the pistol lower and forever turns it into a rifle lower.

I apologize if I am being so slow in grasping this.
 
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HiBC

New member
It is like if contact with the rifle upper legally pollutes the pistol lower and forever turns it into a rifle lower.
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I'm not a lawyer. I did look into it very carefully before I built an AR pistol.

We went over this in another thread you posted. It may not be what you want to hear, and I agree there are aspects of it that do not make much sense....

But the law is clearly written. Its not legal to convert a rifle to a pistol. You can read it left to right,right to left.or standing on your head. Even whining won't help. Asking it 76 ways won't help.

If you fully assemble it as a rifle,is it a rifle?? (No,you aren't President Clinton)

If its a rifle,can it be converted to a pistol?? Not legally.

Now...IF it began life as a factory built pistol and was sold as such,...

it might come down to whether it could be proved . Like if you were witnessed taking the rifle top end off and pinning the pistol top end on.

I'm not going into the topic of getting away with it.

If you want to bet a felony prosecution on Stagpanthers advice in post #6, thats up to you.

I've clearly stated more than once,I'm not a lawyer. I might be wrong.

You can contact the BATF. Get it in writing. The answer might change,depending on the day of the week.
 
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Pistoler0

New member
stagpanther said:
How's that? If an AR is first manufactured as a pistol, you are "allowed" to convert to a rifle configuration and then back to pistol should you so wish.
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Thank you stagpanther, that is exactly what I wanted to know! :)

Let me quote from the page you linked to:



ATF: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Explosives

Can I lawfully make a pistol into a rifle without registering that firearm?

Assuming that the firearm was originally a pistol, the resulting firearm, with an attached shoulder stock, is not an NFA firearm if it has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length.

Pursuant to ATF Ruling 2011-4, such rifle may later be unassembled and again configured as a pistol. Such configuration would not be considered a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. § 5845(a)(4).

[26 U.S.C. § 5845, 27 CFR § 479.11]

Last Reviewed January 23, 2020
 
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Shadow9mm

New member
Lowers are cheap. Buy 2. Build one now, build one later. They are technically neither until you build it as I understand it. So a stripper lower should always good to go.



On a tin foil hatted side note.... How could one prove you built it as a pistol first. If the ATF came knocking and said "You converted a rifle into a pistol! Your in big trouble!"..... How do you prove it was a pistol first? what kind of documentation would actually be good enough in court to get you set free? will a dealer list it as a pistol on the 4473 when you buy it if you ask them?
 
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stagpanther

New member
On a tin foil hatted side note.... How could one prove you built it as a pistol first. If the ATF came knocking and said "You converted a rifle into a pistol! Your in big trouble!"..... How do you prove it was a pistol first? what kind of documentation would actually be good enough in court to get you set free? will a dealer list it as a pistol on the 4473 when you buy it if you ask them?
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Documentation. Like any manufacturer is required to do. The slippery part about AR pistol is that in the end, when you look at it from an objective point of view, what is really being controlled is the use of a short barrel, the receiver is sort of "bootlegged" into the regulation because the definition a of firearm is centered on the component which initiates the boom causing a bullet to wave fond farewell to the case. The fear, such as it is, is that an AR pistol will be used as an SBR and cause a spike in murders, mass shootings, insurrections and invasions from outer space. Rational? probably not. Nonetheless, does the shooting industry industriously figure out creative ways to make a pistol an SBR even if not in name? Yup, probably so.

I've built quite a few pistol AR's. I take pictures of them. I keep all the short barrels readily on hand in the very rare instance that I convert the lower receiver for temporary rifle use. Except for the 300 BO, I've found that an AR pistol is a monumentally sucky configuration for rifle-based cartridges, so it's no coincidence that my pistols are all flavors of 9mm, 10mm an 45acp (and one 300 BO). The receivers and uppers on mine are all conventional blowback designs using Glock or colt magazines, so there isn't a whole lot of potential to randomly switch to a 10" 338 lapua magnum megadeath from above SBR if that strikes my fancy.
 
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shafter

New member
It's my understanding that a stripped lower purchases as "multi" or otherwise designated as neither a rifle or pistol can legally be changed back and forth at will between rifle and pistol uppers. Is this wrong?
 
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Sharkbite

New member
If you buy a bare receiver,it will come,and be sold,as a receiver that is neither a rifle or a pistol. It will say "Multi" for cartridge.
You may build a rifle or a pistol. If you first build is a rifle,you cannot later legally build it into a pistol.
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This is correct. It will be sold as a Receiver and may be built as either a Rifle or Pistol. When i buy a receiver i build it as a pistol and take a pic with my phone of it. That pic is date stamped and i would use that as proof of building it as a “pistol”. There is no way to prove otherwise.

Years ago i purchased a cpl AR Pistols and made darn sure they filled the 4473 out as such.
 
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P Flados

New member
Buying an item marked as a "pistol lower" probably does helps you defend your ability to say that the gun was first built as a pistol. Probably even more convincing is to declare it to be a pistol when you do the paperwork at the FFL (provided you have a pistol permit, concealed carry permit or what ever your state/local government requires).

If you do not want to call it a pistol at the time of purchase, it can be declared to be an "other". In my state, this means no pistol permit / concealed carry license is required.

A lower declared as an "other" in the FFL transaction, can still be built as a pistol. Promptly building it as a pistol and getting photos are a real good idea.

The weird thing is that you can build a pistol with barrel longer than 16 and still call the first build a pistol. However, I would not. For less than $150 delivered I recently bought a nice 1-8 twist 10.5" 300 BO barrel. It makes a useful gun worth having.

The bottom line is that you could be put on the spot someday trying to convince someone that your receiver is officially a pistol. Get at least one barrel less than 16" to have in your possession when you get the lower. Then when you do the first "build" of the gun, use the short barrel, and take photos. This will make it much easier to convince some LEO that you knew the rules and were trying to follow them.
 
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stagpanther

New member
Probably even more convincing is to declare it to be a pistol when you do the paperwork at the FFL (provided you have a pistol permit, concealed carry permit or what ever your state/local government requires).
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I don't believe that is possible/legal. The serialized component category is the result of the manufacturer's registration requirement upon manufacture. The process of transfer I do not believe presents an opportunity to legally "declare" a different firearm category for a manufactured and serialized component.
 
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berettaprofessor

New member
When i buy a receiver i build it as a pistol and take a pic with my phone of it. That pic is date stamped and i would use that as proof of building it as a “pistol”. There is no way to prove otherwise.
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This. And, BTW, Academy Sports has an XTS Pistol Buffer for $29.99. Buy one and use it as you build.
 
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