Ar-15, traditional to folding stock swap?
- Thread starter 281 Quad Cam
- Start date
MessedUpMike
New member
I don't find either to be problem. If you consistantly put your nose on the charging handle cheek weld isn't to much of an issue, at least not for me. For five bucks or so you can get a cheek pad for a telestock and they still look cool. If you buy a telestock and hate it it's cheaper to replace it with an A1 stock than to replace an A1 stock with a telestock. But like I said personally the telestock is fine.
Muzzle brakes also seem to be a personal preference issue. Firstlt they're secured with set screws with a little bit of blue loc-tite. If you try it and don't like it with 60 seconds and an Allen Wrench it's gone. I find it makes the gun a more stable platfrom for following shots, and once again, it looks cool. there are those who claim it cuts down on the muzzle flash some, but I don't really shoot at night so it's not an issue. As far as noise, who's not wearing their ears? My muzzle brake isn't any worse than some of the other cannons people have set up beside me at the NRA range, and personally I'll trade a noisy neighborat the range for one who throws brass at me every timke he shoots.
Most of us here use our ARs, and probably the majority of other non-carry guns owner, for fun shooting and not actual combat. Hopefully we'll never have to. So what it boils down to is what would be the most "fun" gun for you to shoot. If it's got a muzzle brake and a pinned telestock, the more power to you. If it's a fake flash hider and a grenade launcher then go for it, but be prepared for funny looks. Buy what you want, shoot what you want. Just enjoy whatever you have.
Mike
Oh yeah, to give you a heads up Oly has their own owner s group at www.OA2.org, but take a lot of the guys there lightly they get uppity from time to time
Muzzle brakes also seem to be a personal preference issue. Firstlt they're secured with set screws with a little bit of blue loc-tite. If you try it and don't like it with 60 seconds and an Allen Wrench it's gone. I find it makes the gun a more stable platfrom for following shots, and once again, it looks cool. there are those who claim it cuts down on the muzzle flash some, but I don't really shoot at night so it's not an issue. As far as noise, who's not wearing their ears? My muzzle brake isn't any worse than some of the other cannons people have set up beside me at the NRA range, and personally I'll trade a noisy neighborat the range for one who throws brass at me every timke he shoots.
Most of us here use our ARs, and probably the majority of other non-carry guns owner, for fun shooting and not actual combat. Hopefully we'll never have to. So what it boils down to is what would be the most "fun" gun for you to shoot. If it's got a muzzle brake and a pinned telestock, the more power to you. If it's a fake flash hider and a grenade launcher then go for it, but be prepared for funny looks. Buy what you want, shoot what you want. Just enjoy whatever you have.
Mike
Oh yeah, to give you a heads up Oly has their own owner s group at www.OA2.org, but take a lot of the guys there lightly they get uppity from time to time
It appears that you are basing all your decisions on looks. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you know and accept that. I wanted a short AR. I looked at all the options and decided to buy a 16" with the standard fixed stock (Bushmaster). The reasons have all been posted already;
1) The real collapsable stock looks cool but in reality is not a good stock from a shooting standpoint. In addition, the amount that it actually shortens the weapon when collapsed is only a few inches. Considering the fact that the post ban one's are fake anyway, there is no reason for me to buy an inferior stock that doesn't work anyway.
2) I agree that a flash suppressor looks cool, but I don't really care if my flash is suppressed. I am not an armchair commando, I shoot my AR on a range and hunt with it. A muzzle brake might be nice on full auto, but on my semi-auto it has no legitamate purpose and makes the gun much louder. Last but not least, instead of having a cool looking muzzle brake, I would rather have two more inches of barrel to give me more real bullet performance (not looks, real). If you look at the 16" OAL rifles with a brake, the barrel is 14" with a 2" muzzzle brake added to bring the barrel up to a legal 16". If the barrel needs to be 16" by law, why not make that whole 16" real barrel so you get all the velocity you can from the cartridge ?
3) As I said, I wanted a short AR. I was pretty much set on buying an M4 clone because they look good. Aside from the fact that the collapsable stock doesn't collapse and the fact that the barrel is 14" with a muzzle break I was going to buy one knowing it was all show but no go. Then I read the specs. The Bushmaster M4 close is actually 2" longer than my 16" shorty.
Case closed.
One thing to keep in mind, there is no ban on selling these parts. In fact you can pretty easily buy the M16 parts to make your rifle select fire. You can buy pre-ban stocks and you can put them on your rifle................... What keeps people from doing it is the prospect of becomming a felon, losing all their guns and property, losing thier job, losing their freedom. Odds are, no one would ever know, but is the risk to reward ratio good enough to try it for a collapseable stock ?
"Muzzle brakes also seem to be a personal preference issue. Firstlt they're secured with set screws with a little bit of blue loc-tite. If you try it and don't like it with 60 seconds and an Allen Wrench it's gone. "
Most post ban muzzle brakes are permenetly attached to the barrel. You can't take them off without cutting off the end of the barrel. Note that if removable, on many ARs this would result in making a short barreled rifle; another felony (barrel shorter than 16")
1) The real collapsable stock looks cool but in reality is not a good stock from a shooting standpoint. In addition, the amount that it actually shortens the weapon when collapsed is only a few inches. Considering the fact that the post ban one's are fake anyway, there is no reason for me to buy an inferior stock that doesn't work anyway.
2) I agree that a flash suppressor looks cool, but I don't really care if my flash is suppressed. I am not an armchair commando, I shoot my AR on a range and hunt with it. A muzzle brake might be nice on full auto, but on my semi-auto it has no legitamate purpose and makes the gun much louder. Last but not least, instead of having a cool looking muzzle brake, I would rather have two more inches of barrel to give me more real bullet performance (not looks, real). If you look at the 16" OAL rifles with a brake, the barrel is 14" with a 2" muzzzle brake added to bring the barrel up to a legal 16". If the barrel needs to be 16" by law, why not make that whole 16" real barrel so you get all the velocity you can from the cartridge ?
3) As I said, I wanted a short AR. I was pretty much set on buying an M4 clone because they look good. Aside from the fact that the collapsable stock doesn't collapse and the fact that the barrel is 14" with a muzzle break I was going to buy one knowing it was all show but no go. Then I read the specs. The Bushmaster M4 close is actually 2" longer than my 16" shorty.
Case closed.
One thing to keep in mind, there is no ban on selling these parts. In fact you can pretty easily buy the M16 parts to make your rifle select fire. You can buy pre-ban stocks and you can put them on your rifle................... What keeps people from doing it is the prospect of becomming a felon, losing all their guns and property, losing thier job, losing their freedom. Odds are, no one would ever know, but is the risk to reward ratio good enough to try it for a collapseable stock ?
"Muzzle brakes also seem to be a personal preference issue. Firstlt they're secured with set screws with a little bit of blue loc-tite. If you try it and don't like it with 60 seconds and an Allen Wrench it's gone. "
Most post ban muzzle brakes are permenetly attached to the barrel. You can't take them off without cutting off the end of the barrel. Note that if removable, on many ARs this would result in making a short barreled rifle; another felony (barrel shorter than 16")
MessedUpMike
New member
"Most post ban muzzle brakes are permenetly attached to the barrel. You can't take them off without cutting off the end of the barrel. Note that if removable, on many ARs this would result in making a short barreled rifle; another felony (barrel shorter than 16")"
444 you are correct, removing a muzzle brake off of a rifle and making the barrel under 16" is illegal. On the CAR-97 however the barrel alone is 16" so addition/removal of the muzzle brake is completely optional.
Why limit a muzzle brakes usefulness to full auto though? Wouldn't it be just as useful for rapid fire semi auto? Double taps pehaps? If muzzle brakes were that useless why are they, and porting found on so many IPSC guns.
Mike
444 you are correct, removing a muzzle brake off of a rifle and making the barrel under 16" is illegal. On the CAR-97 however the barrel alone is 16" so addition/removal of the muzzle brake is completely optional.
Why limit a muzzle brakes usefulness to full auto though? Wouldn't it be just as useful for rapid fire semi auto? Double taps pehaps? If muzzle brakes were that useless why are they, and porting found on so many IPSC guns.
Mike
I guess they arn't useless, I personally just don't see the need for one. I guess one factor is that I don't do much rapid semi-auto firing. Another factor is that the 5.56 Nato round just doesn't generate a whole lot of recoil to make it nessessary. True, it might make some difference but I dare say, not much. I have fired a number of M16s on full auto and found that controlling the muzzle rise was not an issue. I also think that comparing a handgun to a rifle is apples to oranges. With a handgun firing a major caliber round, the muzzle flip is significant. With an AR15, it isn't. I can certainly see putting a muzzle brake on a gun where you are not concerned in the least about it's size, but if you are trying to get the smallest possible legal length, I would rather have barrel than brake.
You are right, certainly if the barrel itself is over 16 inches there is no problem removing the muzzle brake. I was speaking of the "shortys" where the muzzle break permenately attached is used to make the "barrel" length legal. As I mentioned, when I was looking at the shortys, I had the option of an 11.5" barrel with a 5" muzzle brake, a 14" barrel with a 2" muzzle brake, or a full 16" barrel with no brake. Since they all end up being around 16" OAL, I decided that I would rather have the increased velocity over the muzzle brake although I agree the muzzlebrake looks cool. One factor to consider is that the 5.56 is a fairly high velocity cartridge. But........velocity is all it has going for it. The bullet itself is very tiny but at high velocity it is a very effective cartridge. But as velocity goes down, the round quickly loses it's effectiveness. Wind is another factor. Light bullets are more suseptable to wind. Driving them at high velocity decreses this effect. So, I figured the 16" barrel was a good comprimise if I wanted a smaller rifle. YMMV.
Now that I own two ARs, I realize that I want all the variations. I would love to have the real short barrels just for the "cool" factor. I would also love to have an extremly accurate varmint/target version. But I wanted to take care of the basics first.
One more point on these parts and why they can be legally sold. You can buy collapsable stocks and flash hiders because it is perfectly legal to put them on a pre-ban gun. You just can't put them on a post ban gun. They are also perfectly legal for law enforcement. Same goes for the full auto or three round burst parts. There are plenty of people who own legal NFA weapons that can legally use these parts along with law enforcement. It is just not legal for you to modify your existing semi-auto AR into an NFA weapon unless you are law enforcement. You probably know this, but even if you are willing to get a tax stamp, it is illegal to manufacture new NFA weapons for private use or sale. The select fire M16s that are out there in private hands are all there will ever be unless there is a change in the law.
You are right, certainly if the barrel itself is over 16 inches there is no problem removing the muzzle brake. I was speaking of the "shortys" where the muzzle break permenately attached is used to make the "barrel" length legal. As I mentioned, when I was looking at the shortys, I had the option of an 11.5" barrel with a 5" muzzle brake, a 14" barrel with a 2" muzzle brake, or a full 16" barrel with no brake. Since they all end up being around 16" OAL, I decided that I would rather have the increased velocity over the muzzle brake although I agree the muzzlebrake looks cool. One factor to consider is that the 5.56 is a fairly high velocity cartridge. But........velocity is all it has going for it. The bullet itself is very tiny but at high velocity it is a very effective cartridge. But as velocity goes down, the round quickly loses it's effectiveness. Wind is another factor. Light bullets are more suseptable to wind. Driving them at high velocity decreses this effect. So, I figured the 16" barrel was a good comprimise if I wanted a smaller rifle. YMMV.
Now that I own two ARs, I realize that I want all the variations. I would love to have the real short barrels just for the "cool" factor. I would also love to have an extremly accurate varmint/target version. But I wanted to take care of the basics first.
One more point on these parts and why they can be legally sold. You can buy collapsable stocks and flash hiders because it is perfectly legal to put them on a pre-ban gun. You just can't put them on a post ban gun. They are also perfectly legal for law enforcement. Same goes for the full auto or three round burst parts. There are plenty of people who own legal NFA weapons that can legally use these parts along with law enforcement. It is just not legal for you to modify your existing semi-auto AR into an NFA weapon unless you are law enforcement. You probably know this, but even if you are willing to get a tax stamp, it is illegal to manufacture new NFA weapons for private use or sale. The select fire M16s that are out there in private hands are all there will ever be unless there is a change in the law.
281 Quad Cam
New member
and i learn still more, thanks.
Now im waivering between the models... full stock, bare barrel... or fake tele-stock,muzzle brake....
citing the decrease in price from the CAR97 to the PCR... i think i should go PCR... but that telestock looks so damn cool! but is it 80 dollars cool, and is it the kind of cool worth developing a flinch early in my rifle career due to an incredibly loud muzzle brake?
Are post ban tele-fakes available if i ever change my mind? and if its really that much noise, i dont think ill need a muzzle brake ever, and i've shot .223... recoil reduction is NO issue here!
thanks for the all the eye-opening going on here, I'd rather get smacked around on here than waste my money later!
Now im waivering between the models... full stock, bare barrel... or fake tele-stock,muzzle brake....
citing the decrease in price from the CAR97 to the PCR... i think i should go PCR... but that telestock looks so damn cool! but is it 80 dollars cool, and is it the kind of cool worth developing a flinch early in my rifle career due to an incredibly loud muzzle brake?
Are post ban tele-fakes available if i ever change my mind? and if its really that much noise, i dont think ill need a muzzle brake ever, and i've shot .223... recoil reduction is NO issue here!
thanks for the all the eye-opening going on here, I'd rather get smacked around on here than waste my money later!
BusGunner007
New member
A couple of ideas and a corny old picture might help you envision a setup you might like.
I needed to use a fixed "TeleStyle" buttstock on my Pre-Ban Bushmaster Dissipator for a while until I got the Post-Ban lower for my V-MATCH upper.
Confused yet? Well, that's the Crime, Bill...
Anyway, were I to choose my first AR15 rifle all over again at this point, knowing what the ins & outs are re the law and the prices for Pre-Ban vs. Post-Ban, this is a setup I could live with:
POST-BAN A3 flat-top Bushmaster Dissipator with A2 front sight.
A2 sight handle OR flip-up rear sight.
Hogue full-length forend & grip.
"TeleStyle" buttstock.
CLEAN MUZZLE---NO BRAKE.
Redi-Mag extra mag holder; just because I like to have it there.
Buttstock extra mag holder 'pouch'; same as above.
I used a 'Cheek-Eze' pad on the buttstock, 1/8". 1/4" is available, or, you could rig something up.
This setup would give you a handy rifle that had a little of the 'Evil Black Rifle' look to it; shoot well; be versatile and have extra ammo on the gun.
I think it would be a great setup and wouldn't cost as much as a Pre-Ban rifle.
Like I said, it's just a few ideas.
Have fun with making up the rifle YOU want!
I needed to use a fixed "TeleStyle" buttstock on my Pre-Ban Bushmaster Dissipator for a while until I got the Post-Ban lower for my V-MATCH upper.
Confused yet? Well, that's the Crime, Bill...
Anyway, were I to choose my first AR15 rifle all over again at this point, knowing what the ins & outs are re the law and the prices for Pre-Ban vs. Post-Ban, this is a setup I could live with:
POST-BAN A3 flat-top Bushmaster Dissipator with A2 front sight.
A2 sight handle OR flip-up rear sight.
Hogue full-length forend & grip.
"TeleStyle" buttstock.
CLEAN MUZZLE---NO BRAKE.
Redi-Mag extra mag holder; just because I like to have it there.
Buttstock extra mag holder 'pouch'; same as above.
I used a 'Cheek-Eze' pad on the buttstock, 1/8". 1/4" is available, or, you could rig something up.
This setup would give you a handy rifle that had a little of the 'Evil Black Rifle' look to it; shoot well; be versatile and have extra ammo on the gun.
I think it would be a great setup and wouldn't cost as much as a Pre-Ban rifle.
Like I said, it's just a few ideas.
Have fun with making up the rifle YOU want!
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MessedUpMike
New member
Uh which PCR dude? I'd advise staying away from the "Plinker" unless really on a shoestring budget. Personally I don't care for the A1 style sight.
The cool factor of the telestock, and the muzzle brake are individual choices. If I didn't have the muzzle brake on mine I'd still like it as much. But making louder doesn't break my heart. It's sorta like being on of the idiots who likes old Firetrucks that broke off the exhaust pipes. It's a personal choice.
The telestock is also up to you. Maybe becasue I'm not anywhere near the master rifleman of some of our counterparts here I don't think the telestock is so bad. Yeah everyone can tell it's fake, but if you lie it who cares? It's alomst like arguing against implants, but I'm not opening that can of worms here. Both types of stocks are available aftermarket, from a number of suppliers. Th kicker is that an Aftermarket Telestock in some places cost way more than a straight stock. On the other hand Some feel that Bushmasters "fixed" telestock is more ergonomically correct than other telestocks. The down side is that if the ban sunsets it can't be "re-fixed" into a working telestock. once again YMMV.
I'll copy Busgunner and give you my ideal AR also just to confuse you more.
I'd stay with the Oly CAR-97, but I might be incline to go with the M4 style depend on my cash at the time. I'd definately get the telestock though, Ban can't last forever. (well it could but I'm hpoing)
Houge pistol grip, stcok grip has to go.
I'd stay with the fixed carry handle with A2 sights, it's a 16" barrel I'm not gonna shoot but so far away.
A Tijicon Reflex2 sight. It's a red dot, and it's expesnive, but it's way cool! In the unlikely event I ever use this rifle for some sort of IPSC 3 gun match it'll come in handy.
Muzzle brake same reason as above, plus it's loud!
Mike
The cool factor of the telestock, and the muzzle brake are individual choices. If I didn't have the muzzle brake on mine I'd still like it as much. But making louder doesn't break my heart. It's sorta like being on of the idiots who likes old Firetrucks that broke off the exhaust pipes. It's a personal choice.
The telestock is also up to you. Maybe becasue I'm not anywhere near the master rifleman of some of our counterparts here I don't think the telestock is so bad. Yeah everyone can tell it's fake, but if you lie it who cares? It's alomst like arguing against implants, but I'm not opening that can of worms here. Both types of stocks are available aftermarket, from a number of suppliers. Th kicker is that an Aftermarket Telestock in some places cost way more than a straight stock. On the other hand Some feel that Bushmasters "fixed" telestock is more ergonomically correct than other telestocks. The down side is that if the ban sunsets it can't be "re-fixed" into a working telestock. once again YMMV.
I'll copy Busgunner and give you my ideal AR also just to confuse you more.
I'd stay with the Oly CAR-97, but I might be incline to go with the M4 style depend on my cash at the time. I'd definately get the telestock though, Ban can't last forever. (well it could but I'm hpoing)
Houge pistol grip, stcok grip has to go.
I'd stay with the fixed carry handle with A2 sights, it's a 16" barrel I'm not gonna shoot but so far away.
A Tijicon Reflex2 sight. It's a red dot, and it's expesnive, but it's way cool! In the unlikely event I ever use this rifle for some sort of IPSC 3 gun match it'll come in handy.
Muzzle brake same reason as above, plus it's loud!
Mike
281 Quad Cam
New member
the PCR-5 with solid stock and bare muzzle... I ruled out the plinker b/c with cast upper and lower, it looks like 1000 rounds later its gonna rattle.. lol
Brian Busch
New member
Gotta say, that if I was going for a post-ban AR carbine, it would be one of these:
Bushmaster Shorty AK.
And I'd build it myself to save a few dollars, and get an M16A1 stock (about 2" shorter than the A2). This thing has the AK74 muzzlebrake, which actually does a good job at flash reduction, and is the standard muzzle device on the Russian Army's AK74 assault rifle.
Bushmaster Shorty AK.
And I'd build it myself to save a few dollars, and get an M16A1 stock (about 2" shorter than the A2). This thing has the AK74 muzzlebrake, which actually does a good job at flash reduction, and is the standard muzzle device on the Russian Army's AK74 assault rifle.
USMCsilver
New member
281, when you get your first one, you will probably obtain a preban afterwards.
And when you get your pre-ban, you will buy and sell lots of stuff trying to get it the way you want it.
Take it from me. I've had mine for a little while, and it is now finally starting to make me "happy".
And when you get your pre-ban, you will buy and sell lots of stuff trying to get it the way you want it.
Take it from me. I've had mine for a little while, and it is now finally starting to make me "happy".
Attachments
you should read this:
http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/ar15brands.msnw
and spend some time reading the whole site:
http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/_homepage.msnw?pgmarket=en-us
of course if you are an optimist,
you realize that the "Assault rifle" ban is going to dissapear in September of 2004
and fully featured AR15s will be purchased brand new for 750 bucks
once the sales drop off in 2005
the price point will slide to 500 bucks
http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/ar15brands.msnw
and spend some time reading the whole site:
http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/_homepage.msnw?pgmarket=en-us
of course if you are an optimist,
you realize that the "Assault rifle" ban is going to dissapear in September of 2004
and fully featured AR15s will be purchased brand new for 750 bucks
once the sales drop off in 2005
the price point will slide to 500 bucks
281 Quad Cam
New member
Thats a nice rifle, I'd like it without the doo-hickeys... as time goes on everyone just gets back to the bare rifle anyway...
So... does anybody actually anticipate the removal of the assault weapons ban? does it have a time limit which may fail to renew? in my community I see a wall of ignorance towards firearms - a wall no amount of facts or statistics could breach...
but in either case, what part of the rifle has to be Pre-ban to make a pre-ban "rainforest killer." the lower receiver?
So... does anybody actually anticipate the removal of the assault weapons ban? does it have a time limit which may fail to renew? in my community I see a wall of ignorance towards firearms - a wall no amount of facts or statistics could breach...
but in either case, what part of the rifle has to be Pre-ban to make a pre-ban "rainforest killer." the lower receiver?
MessedUpMike
New member
I believe the AW ban automatically sunsets if it'd not renewed some time nextyear (sept?). Whether or not they revive it is anyones guess. I know everyone on this side is going grapenuts waitng for it to end, what they enemy is doing about it I don't know. If the state you live in comes up with it's own AW ban it's a moot point anyway.
As far as what makes a preban you are correct, lower receivers made before the ban hide you socks, eat cats, and destroy the ozone layer. After the ban they are simply weapons used by criminals misunderstood by a society that would be safe if they didn't exsist at all, but are still legal anyway.
Mike
As far as what makes a preban you are correct, lower receivers made before the ban hide you socks, eat cats, and destroy the ozone layer. After the ban they are simply weapons used by criminals misunderstood by a society that would be safe if they didn't exsist at all, but are still legal anyway.
Mike
Kathleen Kennedy Townsend ran part of her final MD govenor campaign with an emphasis on banning more "assault rifles" in Maryland.
she lost
90% of the politicians that the Bradyites backed LOST
me thinks, the democrats are distancing themselves from the issue
I have not even heard a pundit discussion on the "issue" and the 2002 elections
The September 1994, Ominbus Crime Bill "assault weapon" ban sunsets September 14th, 2004.
It was supposed to be a 10 year study period to see what impact the rifles had on crime.
she lost
90% of the politicians that the Bradyites backed LOST
me thinks, the democrats are distancing themselves from the issue
I have not even heard a pundit discussion on the "issue" and the 2002 elections
The September 1994, Ominbus Crime Bill "assault weapon" ban sunsets September 14th, 2004.
It was supposed to be a 10 year study period to see what impact the rifles had on crime.