Bill DeShivs
New member
BTW- NEVER touch off a a .30 carbine round from a 10" barrel inside a car-even with both front windows open!
I'm sure the blackout is just as bad.
I'm sure the blackout is just as bad.
AR-15 Pistol in .300 Blackout as car gun?
- Thread starter Gary L. Griffiths
- Start date
FrankenMauser
New member
I don't think we're interpreting the latest opinion letter the same way.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
I think one of the first things we need to clarify is what the OP means by a "car gun." One of the things we enjoy here in the U.S. that a large portion of the world doesn't is a remarkable stability. In many countries, roadblocks are not unknown, and whether manned by bandits or government forces, the outcome may often be the same - everybody that passes through them may be exposed to robbery, murder, etc.
Within about 10 minutes of the first time I trained for one of these scenarios, the first thought that ran through my mind was "I would really like something better than a pistol at the initial contact rather than sorting the immediate problems out with a pistol and trying to access a rifle."
When I had that thought, I wanted something that hit like a rifle close up, but I was willing to sacrifice the 200m plus range. I wanted something I could use and maneuver inside a vehicle if necessary. And because most of this was predicated on being in a vehicle on a road, I wanted something that could penetrate other vehicles if necessary. And I'd really like to do the whole thing without exiting or stopping the vehicle if possible.
Something like a Tavor 16" bullpup, a SIG MCX or an AR pistol/SBR, comes very close to meeting those criteria. A 9" .300 BLK will throw a 110gr Barnes TSX faster than a 16" .30 carbine and with 1) better terminal effect and 2) less blast and flash. Those heavier, slower bullets will also prove a little handier around vehicles than some (though not all) .223 rounds.
While those criteria seem a little far-fetched for most U.S. scenarios at the moment, they may not be so far-fetched in the future. Political road blockades are already an occasional occurrence here in the U.S. and violence has certainly been associated with political rallies of late. I don't know that right now I'd risk the potential theft of a firearm for the relatively low chance of this kind of episode (especially since you'd likely have some prior warning of when this might be necessary); but I would probably make some contingency plans for moving out of areas where this is occasionally happening to more stable areas.
Within about 10 minutes of the first time I trained for one of these scenarios, the first thought that ran through my mind was "I would really like something better than a pistol at the initial contact rather than sorting the immediate problems out with a pistol and trying to access a rifle."
When I had that thought, I wanted something that hit like a rifle close up, but I was willing to sacrifice the 200m plus range. I wanted something I could use and maneuver inside a vehicle if necessary. And because most of this was predicated on being in a vehicle on a road, I wanted something that could penetrate other vehicles if necessary. And I'd really like to do the whole thing without exiting or stopping the vehicle if possible.
Something like a Tavor 16" bullpup, a SIG MCX or an AR pistol/SBR, comes very close to meeting those criteria. A 9" .300 BLK will throw a 110gr Barnes TSX faster than a 16" .30 carbine and with 1) better terminal effect and 2) less blast and flash. Those heavier, slower bullets will also prove a little handier around vehicles than some (though not all) .223 rounds.
While those criteria seem a little far-fetched for most U.S. scenarios at the moment, they may not be so far-fetched in the future. Political road blockades are already an occasional occurrence here in the U.S. and violence has certainly been associated with political rallies of late. I don't know that right now I'd risk the potential theft of a firearm for the relatively low chance of this kind of episode (especially since you'd likely have some prior warning of when this might be necessary); but I would probably make some contingency plans for moving out of areas where this is occasionally happening to more stable areas.
Gary L. Griffiths
New member
A box of factory ammo in a year. I would, of course, run 50 or 100 rds of handloads each quarter to keep up my skills. Maybe more, if it's as fun to shoot as you suggest!
I would certainly attempt do do so, but these things seem to be popping up all over. Whoda' thunk Ferguson, MO, for heaven's sake! In the foreseeable future, I'll be traveling through Dallas, Oklahoma City, Kansas City MO, and points in between. Just will feel better with an AR of one sort or another under the back seat.
Cosmodragoon
New member
This and a few other things have me wondering if the middle-ground of a pistol-caliber carbine or one of those semi-only versions of an SMG might be better. It would be a little quieter, maybe more maneuverable, and potentially easier to control. You'd lose a little penetrating power but modern vehicles aren't exactly tanks and I'm not sure how much the difference matters across various SHTF scenarios.
Gary, Ar pistols are fun I guarantee it! The Blackout is a real hoot to fire in the short barreled pistol configuration, I have a Faxon ."Loud Mouth" muzzle brake on my 8.5" which does an admirable job of keeping the muzzle down in rapid fire situations of course at the expense of a loud report. Since I never shoot in a regulated position range that is not a problem for me.
As for carrying the weapon in my vehicle for self defense, I am just too old and if my initial CC defense fails by the time i got my arthritic appendages out of the truck all would be lost anyway. I will leave the AR truck guns to younger folks.
As for carrying the weapon in my vehicle for self defense, I am just too old and if my initial CC defense fails by the time i got my arthritic appendages out of the truck all would be lost anyway. I will leave the AR truck guns to younger folks.
Bill DeShivs
New member
The Keltec Sub 2000 should be a fine car gun.
Well, I live in a rural area where I doubt sufficient people could even congregate enough to necessitate me needing to deploy an AR (instead of driving away), so I dont have much to add on the whole car gun thing. Though a shortie .300 BLK seems like a blast to shoot, so now I kinda want one.
I have found that carrying at about 2 oclock (I do all the time, but a clip style holster could be adjustes quickly) allows ne to reach my gun easily while driving. I make sure my cover garment is not obstructing before I belt up and the firarm remains easy to reach. Sometimes a 5" barrel 1911 can catch the searbelt in drills, but I tend to stick to shorter barrels than that for ccw anyway.
I have found that carrying at about 2 oclock (I do all the time, but a clip style holster could be adjustes quickly) allows ne to reach my gun easily while driving. I make sure my cover garment is not obstructing before I belt up and the firarm remains easy to reach. Sometimes a 5" barrel 1911 can catch the searbelt in drills, but I tend to stick to shorter barrels than that for ccw anyway.
Bartholomew Roberts touched on a the definition and potential (future?) need of a "car gun". Most would agree, this isn't a replacement for a CCW that is on your person; however, I think there are two aspects to a vehicle gun.
I've considered a couple immediate-use options. Since I routinely carry IWB, it's hard to access my handgun while seated. I've considered a dedicated handgun that is mounted for quick access while seated, or adding a magnet or like-holster for my CCW that I could remove and holster as I get into my vehicle. I haven't made my mind up and I'm still working with both solutions.
Second is where we consider a "long gun" or the pseudo-SBR type "pistols". I really like the idea of the pistols with arm braces for a few reasons, but I must state up front that these are not for use inside a vehicle (or at least as an extreme last choice). Maneuvering in a vehicle with a rifle is no easy task, even if it's in a roomy up-armored HMMWV. Having a much more compact option makes maneuvering and exiting far easier.
Of course the benefit of this type of firearm is less about use inside the vehicle and more geared towards maximizing the potential of longer sight radius, more stable and accurate platform and in some choices, far better ballistics. A rifle is certainly the better option, but as most have found out, traveling with a rifle can be more cumbersome and sometimes more of a legal hassle. A handgun (ala pseudo SBR) is actually easier to travel with from my experiences, where as a true, registered SBR is even more problematic if crossing multiple state lines.
The need? Well, this will always be debatable as we aren't a third-world country with frequent and common violence from warlords or an extremely corrupt government who advocate violence on their own people. Still, the option is always nice to practice as long as location and measures mitigate theft which is a very real possibility. Any "truck gun" I've used only stays in my truck when at work in a very secure area or while I'm driving; it is removed at home (still pretty secure in a mostly rural area), or when traveling and brought into the hotel or other lodging options.
Most of this is academic, but I still find it important to think through the situations, advantages/disadvantages and of course, always considering the legal aspects.
I wouldn't leave a suppressed .300BO pistol with arm brace in my truck overnight in unfamiliar areas, but I think it would be a top choice if traveling distances in a vehicle and you wanted something with a little more performance than your standard CCW for a worse-case scenario. The nicest thing about the size is that even if you did have to abandon your vehicle, you could discreetly carry your truck/car gun while you hitch a ride with the tow truck, taxi, etc.
ROCK6
I've considered a couple immediate-use options. Since I routinely carry IWB, it's hard to access my handgun while seated. I've considered a dedicated handgun that is mounted for quick access while seated, or adding a magnet or like-holster for my CCW that I could remove and holster as I get into my vehicle. I haven't made my mind up and I'm still working with both solutions.
Second is where we consider a "long gun" or the pseudo-SBR type "pistols". I really like the idea of the pistols with arm braces for a few reasons, but I must state up front that these are not for use inside a vehicle (or at least as an extreme last choice). Maneuvering in a vehicle with a rifle is no easy task, even if it's in a roomy up-armored HMMWV. Having a much more compact option makes maneuvering and exiting far easier.
Of course the benefit of this type of firearm is less about use inside the vehicle and more geared towards maximizing the potential of longer sight radius, more stable and accurate platform and in some choices, far better ballistics. A rifle is certainly the better option, but as most have found out, traveling with a rifle can be more cumbersome and sometimes more of a legal hassle. A handgun (ala pseudo SBR) is actually easier to travel with from my experiences, where as a true, registered SBR is even more problematic if crossing multiple state lines.
The need? Well, this will always be debatable as we aren't a third-world country with frequent and common violence from warlords or an extremely corrupt government who advocate violence on their own people. Still, the option is always nice to practice as long as location and measures mitigate theft which is a very real possibility. Any "truck gun" I've used only stays in my truck when at work in a very secure area or while I'm driving; it is removed at home (still pretty secure in a mostly rural area), or when traveling and brought into the hotel or other lodging options.
Most of this is academic, but I still find it important to think through the situations, advantages/disadvantages and of course, always considering the legal aspects.
I wouldn't leave a suppressed .300BO pistol with arm brace in my truck overnight in unfamiliar areas, but I think it would be a top choice if traveling distances in a vehicle and you wanted something with a little more performance than your standard CCW for a worse-case scenario. The nicest thing about the size is that even if you did have to abandon your vehicle, you could discreetly carry your truck/car gun while you hitch a ride with the tow truck, taxi, etc.
ROCK6
If you are contemplating using an AR pistol inside a motor vehicle, I'd suggest you get used to driving with your hearing protection on, at all times. Or you get used to saying "what??" as your most frequent word, if you don't.
Many years ago I had the joy of being in the back seat of a 67 Mustang, all windows down, when the passenger stuck a .357 Mag out the window (gun was completely outside the car) and firing.
Painful, and disorienting. The AR pistols burn close to double the amount of powder, so muzzle blast is going to be significantly worse.
As generally used, the terms "truck gun" and "car gun" mean slightly different things. A Truck gun is carried in the vehicle, so as to be handily available for use outside the vehicle. A Car gun is carried in the vehicle available for immediate use FROM the vehicle as a defensive weapon.
If you mean something else, please be clear.
Before you consider relying on an AR pistol to repel boarders, do yourself the "favor" of driving to some remote location where you can actually fire the weapon from the vehicle, and fire it. Wear hearing protection!!!! Then consider what you would experience without hearing protection. Might change your mind. Might not, but if not, at least you have the benefit of actual experience to judge with...
The guys in the movies never go deaf for days after ripping off a burst from a car. Real life is different.
Many years ago I had the joy of being in the back seat of a 67 Mustang, all windows down, when the passenger stuck a .357 Mag out the window (gun was completely outside the car) and firing.
Painful, and disorienting. The AR pistols burn close to double the amount of powder, so muzzle blast is going to be significantly worse.
As generally used, the terms "truck gun" and "car gun" mean slightly different things. A Truck gun is carried in the vehicle, so as to be handily available for use outside the vehicle. A Car gun is carried in the vehicle available for immediate use FROM the vehicle as a defensive weapon.
If you mean something else, please be clear.
Before you consider relying on an AR pistol to repel boarders, do yourself the "favor" of driving to some remote location where you can actually fire the weapon from the vehicle, and fire it. Wear hearing protection!!!! Then consider what you would experience without hearing protection. Might change your mind. Might not, but if not, at least you have the benefit of actual experience to judge with...
The guys in the movies never go deaf for days after ripping off a burst from a car. Real life is different.
44AMP said:
SPEAK UP! WHAT DID YOU SAY?
I've done a little training and the concussion inside a vehicle is ridiculous. I do wander if the AR type pistols being suppressed would significantly help? I've never seen the distinction between "car" or "truck" gun, but I've typically never considered firing anything other than a pistol from in within my vehicle and only then as a last resort encounter.
The distinction makes some sense, but I've always considered "car" guns as rifles locked up in the trunk where you had to exit the vehicle to access anyways. The "truck" guns growing up where often just hunting rifles stowed in the cab, but have taken on the meaning of keeping a long gun handy, but really meant for use after exiting.
It seems like definitions range a wider spectrum, but it once explained, I really think we're all pretty much on the same sheet of music.
ROCK6
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Gary L. Griffiths
New member
FWIW, I took Joe SixPack's suggestion to heart and started a thread in General Discussions on "What is a Car Gun?"
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Pro-tip: Almost all vehicle interiors and many vehicle exteriors react poorly to muzzle blast from AR pistols. Having a beater car for this kind of experimentation is well-advised.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
I've trained in cars with handguns and without hearing protection, I shudder to think what it would sound like. Ouch. I do carry a pair of plugs in the center console. If I have enough time to get some big honker of a gun into play (now where are we stowing the gun to get to as the zombies close in?), I guess I have enough time to put in the plugs.
I'm not seeing retrieving the long arm or the short long arm and using the car as the Alamo. I prefer to drive away. There are some good descriptions of mob defense out there. Standing still and shooting at a crowd isn't preferred.
I'm not seeing retrieving the long arm or the short long arm and using the car as the Alamo. I prefer to drive away. There are some good descriptions of mob defense out there. Standing still and shooting at a crowd isn't preferred.
MosinNOUGAT
New member
What ever you are comfortable with should be your car gun (but yes it will work).
Gary L. Griffiths
New member
Reminds me of back in the day, before an IG inspection, we were all required to have our ear plugs in neat little plastic containers, so we could wear them on the uniforms we never wore. The IG inspected mine, then dissolved into giggles. I put a label on the container: "CAUTION: Place one plug firmly in each ear after yelling 'HALT' but before discharging weapon."