Jamie Young
New member
I'm interested in picking one up, but I have heard absolutely ZERO about them. Are they worth the money or should I just buy something that's not an AR variant?
Anyone have a gas piston upper on their AR?
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Jamie Young
New member
Anybody ?
I don't know anyone who has a gas piston AR, and I shoot in matches with a whole bunch of AR owners. I have read about them, and seen advertising material on them, but never seen a real one. On the other hand, there are millions of ARs out there with the gas tube/direct impingement system, and of course the US military uses the same old system, so I doubt you could make a case for the gas piston being that much better than the original system. Buy an AR, shoot it, learn to clean the action like every other AR shooter, and be happy.
The terms "Clean the action of an AR" and "Be happy" are mutually exclusive.
I too am interested in an AR like system, however I think the answer lies in the AR-180 series of rifles. Eliminates the problem of direct impingement as well as gets rid of the bolt carrier that rides on 4 "rails" in the upper reciever. Still waiting to hear feedback on the durability of the polymer lowers of the AR-180B
Jamie Young
New member
I want an H&K 416
I know why Jamie's asking.
There's a background to his looking at the gas-piston AR system. He's got the same problems with his Colt AR choking after a few hundred rounds that I have with mine, and it's downright discouraging.
Gotta love the replies, though. "Get a standard AR", "Clean the AR", "be happy". That's what he already has, folks, a high-dollar one, and it ain't working. Read the story over at www.therallypoint.org where Jamie is the administrator.
And, no, I'm not trying to incite a riot or re-introduce George Hill's disdain for the Stoner guns. I'm saying that I've seen ARs that work, including my issued FN-made M16A2, and unfortunately, ARs that I wouldn't trust farther than I could throw them (ala' my 1994-vintage Colt Competition HBAR).
There's a background to his looking at the gas-piston AR system. He's got the same problems with his Colt AR choking after a few hundred rounds that I have with mine, and it's downright discouraging.
Gotta love the replies, though. "Get a standard AR", "Clean the AR", "be happy". That's what he already has, folks, a high-dollar one, and it ain't working. Read the story over at www.therallypoint.org where Jamie is the administrator.
And, no, I'm not trying to incite a riot or re-introduce George Hill's disdain for the Stoner guns. I'm saying that I've seen ARs that work, including my issued FN-made M16A2, and unfortunately, ARs that I wouldn't trust farther than I could throw them (ala' my 1994-vintage Colt Competition HBAR).
A properly-built AR will run reliable for thousands of rounds without cleaning. It sounds like Colt screwed the pooch and shipped some guns that don't work because they were made wrong.
Tight chambers are a known reliability problem for semi-autos. I've seen M1A's puke in action courses of fire when they got too hot for this reason.
I shoot a lot of rounds, and I shoot with guys who do. Our AR-15s work. I have been in several carbine classes with 20+ students who each fired 1500+ rounds in two days. If AR's failed every 200 rounds without cleaning like some claim, we should consistenty witness 150+ malfunctions in two days. Yet that didn't happen. There were very few AR-15 malfunctions, while three M1A's, 1 AK, and 1 POF (gas piston upper) AR had consistent and catastrophic failures (as in, needed tools to get back into action). What's this? A piston upper failed? I have witnessed 2 different POF uppers fail at two different classes.
I ran a multi-gun match last weekend where no ARs out of the 23 present had issues, yet the only AK-47 there didn't run from the start-- single-shot until he gave up and transitioned to his M1A.
A well regarded carbine trainer recently rated the 416 the most reliable of the piston uppers, followed closely by the LW.
Tight chambers are a known reliability problem for semi-autos. I've seen M1A's puke in action courses of fire when they got too hot for this reason.
I shoot a lot of rounds, and I shoot with guys who do. Our AR-15s work. I have been in several carbine classes with 20+ students who each fired 1500+ rounds in two days. If AR's failed every 200 rounds without cleaning like some claim, we should consistenty witness 150+ malfunctions in two days. Yet that didn't happen. There were very few AR-15 malfunctions, while three M1A's, 1 AK, and 1 POF (gas piston upper) AR had consistent and catastrophic failures (as in, needed tools to get back into action). What's this? A piston upper failed? I have witnessed 2 different POF uppers fail at two different classes.
I ran a multi-gun match last weekend where no ARs out of the 23 present had issues, yet the only AK-47 there didn't run from the start-- single-shot until he gave up and transitioned to his M1A.
A well regarded carbine trainer recently rated the 416 the most reliable of the piston uppers, followed closely by the LW.
shappy0869
New member
You could always pick up something like a Kel-Tec SU-16 for less than the price of a piston upper, and have your way with it.
Zak, Jamie didn't ask about M1As or AK-47s.
Neither Jamie nor I mentioned anything other than AR rifles. But since you felt the need to, thanks for bringing them into the fray. I hope it at least made you feel better. As a Camp Perry competitor, I've watched oodles of match-tuned M1A/M14 variants not choke. There's gotta be a few data points in there somewhere.
I could probably ask another well-known and experienced 3-gunner, Larry Correia, about how many times he sees an AR-15 choke while he runs his Saiga AK-47 variant through the courses of fire. What does it prove? People like whichever guns they own and run, and will defend them ad nauseam.
Again, I didn't enter this thread to start some sort of pissing contest, let alone get the AR-15 apologists wrapped around their respective axles.
Direct gas impingement works. I know it works, I have a wonderful AG-42B Ljungman that's more direct in that respect than even the Stoner guns. It also stays relatively clean compared to the latter. However, my premium Colt and Jamie's don't like functioning after a relatively short amount of rounds are expended. In my book, that's just not right. My gun's already been back to Colt twice. As I've stated before, I'd love to sell the damned thing either here or over at TRP, but then I'm just passing a problem on to the next guy for a bunch of money, not entirely an honest business dealing.
I just retired from a successful military career, and was issued Colt M16A1 rifles, as well as select-fire early Colt AR-15 slickside rifles, and most recently, an FN-made M16A2. All worked just fine, although that 3-round burst lockwork in the M16A2 isn't the nicest feeling trigger in the world.
I'm to the point of driving to the Krieger factory a couple counties next door and picking up a new barrel for my Colt, perhaps that'll fix the darned thing. Otherwise, I, too, am interested in the reliability and durability of the gas-piston conversions for the Stoner guns. That's all Jamie's asking for, too. Is it so hard to get a straight, un-spun answer?
Neither Jamie nor I mentioned anything other than AR rifles. But since you felt the need to, thanks for bringing them into the fray. I hope it at least made you feel better. As a Camp Perry competitor, I've watched oodles of match-tuned M1A/M14 variants not choke. There's gotta be a few data points in there somewhere.
I could probably ask another well-known and experienced 3-gunner, Larry Correia, about how many times he sees an AR-15 choke while he runs his Saiga AK-47 variant through the courses of fire. What does it prove? People like whichever guns they own and run, and will defend them ad nauseam.
Again, I didn't enter this thread to start some sort of pissing contest, let alone get the AR-15 apologists wrapped around their respective axles.
Direct gas impingement works. I know it works, I have a wonderful AG-42B Ljungman that's more direct in that respect than even the Stoner guns. It also stays relatively clean compared to the latter. However, my premium Colt and Jamie's don't like functioning after a relatively short amount of rounds are expended. In my book, that's just not right. My gun's already been back to Colt twice. As I've stated before, I'd love to sell the damned thing either here or over at TRP, but then I'm just passing a problem on to the next guy for a bunch of money, not entirely an honest business dealing.
I just retired from a successful military career, and was issued Colt M16A1 rifles, as well as select-fire early Colt AR-15 slickside rifles, and most recently, an FN-made M16A2. All worked just fine, although that 3-round burst lockwork in the M16A2 isn't the nicest feeling trigger in the world.
I'm to the point of driving to the Krieger factory a couple counties next door and picking up a new barrel for my Colt, perhaps that'll fix the darned thing. Otherwise, I, too, am interested in the reliability and durability of the gas-piston conversions for the Stoner guns. That's all Jamie's asking for, too. Is it so hard to get a straight, un-spun answer?
Hidden in my apology are two facts about POF performance.
Here is a link to a thread where guys who have used several piston uppers posted: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4265
Here is a link to a thread where guys who have used several piston uppers posted: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4265
Gewehr98-
When I replied to the post asking about gas-piston ARs, I was not aware of
I also spend a lot of time shooting an AR, also a high-dollar one, but mine will get me through a match, probably several, without puking and failing. I keep it clean, and I'm happy with it.
There are a lot of us who have military experience, and have played with the M16 (both the A1 and A2) quite a bit. I even got to go on several government-paid trips to tropical paradises at no personal expense, and the M16 served me flawlessly.
If a match rifle is unreliable, it could be an issue with the chamber being too tight, or the powder you load with, or any number of things unrelated to the weapon design itself. Perhaps a gas-piston upper will solve that, perhaps not. Either way, keeping the action clean on an AR will go a long way towards keeping it shooting.
When I replied to the post asking about gas-piston ARs, I was not aware of
, because he did not say so. I still say shoot a standard AR, keep it clean, and be happy with it.
I also spend a lot of time shooting an AR, also a high-dollar one, but mine will get me through a match, probably several, without puking and failing. I keep it clean, and I'm happy with it.
There are a lot of us who have military experience, and have played with the M16 (both the A1 and A2) quite a bit. I even got to go on several government-paid trips to tropical paradises at no personal expense, and the M16 served me flawlessly.
If a match rifle is unreliable, it could be an issue with the chamber being too tight, or the powder you load with, or any number of things unrelated to the weapon design itself. Perhaps a gas-piston upper will solve that, perhaps not. Either way, keeping the action clean on an AR will go a long way towards keeping it shooting.
Scorch, my particular Sporter II Competion HBAR is disgustingly spotless.
Seriously. White glove spotless, then lubed with either LSA, TW-25B, or Rem-Oil, among other's I've tried. You could quite honestly eat off of my gun's components. Once it's that clean and then properly lubed (by properly, I mean by what my CATM instructors forced down my throat all those years), it'll choke between 200-300 rounds.
I *believe* the chamber's on the tight side of SAAMI specs, and that the chrome plating of chamber and bore probably made it even tighter. But one cannot run a chambering reamer into a chromed chamber without creating total carnage. I've also explored getting custom reloading dies made, or using small-base dies to swage down the brass an RCH more than my standard .223 Remington dies do now. Ammo chambers when the gun's spotless, no sweat. Only when she's burned through those 200-300 rounds does the problem occur, so I attribute it to a tight chamber that goes too tight when dirty.
So when the weather warms up a smidgen, I'm going to pour a CerroSafe cast of the chamber and get the dimensions recorded. Then I'll go the next step, be it a new barrel, tight reloading dies, or a gas-piston conversion. Funny thing was, I bought the Colt for an investment, the Blue Label R-6700 Series was supposed to be THE pre-ban gun to buy per the AR-15 afficionados. In hindsight, maybe the money would have been better spent on a Daewoo DR-200.
Seriously. White glove spotless, then lubed with either LSA, TW-25B, or Rem-Oil, among other's I've tried. You could quite honestly eat off of my gun's components. Once it's that clean and then properly lubed (by properly, I mean by what my CATM instructors forced down my throat all those years), it'll choke between 200-300 rounds.
I *believe* the chamber's on the tight side of SAAMI specs, and that the chrome plating of chamber and bore probably made it even tighter. But one cannot run a chambering reamer into a chromed chamber without creating total carnage. I've also explored getting custom reloading dies made, or using small-base dies to swage down the brass an RCH more than my standard .223 Remington dies do now. Ammo chambers when the gun's spotless, no sweat. Only when she's burned through those 200-300 rounds does the problem occur, so I attribute it to a tight chamber that goes too tight when dirty.
So when the weather warms up a smidgen, I'm going to pour a CerroSafe cast of the chamber and get the dimensions recorded. Then I'll go the next step, be it a new barrel, tight reloading dies, or a gas-piston conversion. Funny thing was, I bought the Colt for an investment, the Blue Label R-6700 Series was supposed to be THE pre-ban gun to buy per the AR-15 afficionados. In hindsight, maybe the money would have been better spent on a Daewoo DR-200.
Well, I suppose if I had a rifle that choked around 200-300 rounds, I would either sell it or rebarrel it, only I would skip the chromed chamber/barrel and opt for stainless.
Krieger will probably recommend a new barrel if the chamber is too tight. And you're right, once the chamber is chromed, that's the way it is. Anything you do will just make it worse.
Krieger will probably recommend a new barrel if the chamber is too tight. And you're right, once the chamber is chromed, that's the way it is. Anything you do will just make it worse.
Zak, I wasn't asking for an apology, really.
I just wanted Jamie to get the answers he was asking for, without all the typical nonsense that gets thrown in there, akin to the 1911 thread where somebody interjects "Buy a Glock".
And yes, I'm very much interested in the answers to Jamie's query because I'm in the same boat as he is.
I just wanted Jamie to get the answers he was asking for, without all the typical nonsense that gets thrown in there, akin to the 1911 thread where somebody interjects "Buy a Glock".
And yes, I'm very much interested in the answers to Jamie's query because I'm in the same boat as he is.
Jamie Young
New member
I've taken dozens of new shooters to the range and they all were very comfortable learning to shoot on the AR15 platform, BUT I'd be lying to myself if I didn't acknowledge that the most malfuctions I seen in semi-auto rifles are with the AR15. What I've seen about the H&K 416 seems to end the bickering. The AR15 is pretty close to the best ergonomically designed combat carbine, but putting a gas piston in the AR15/M16 is an improvement. Somebody got smart and redesigned the upper on the AR15/M16 and they may get my money.
P.S.
My Bushmaster runs fine on factory ammo and then it craps out way too soon. I've recently been engaging in more aggressive training (and being an NRA Certified Firearms instructor) and my AR15 failed. I'm actually looking for something better and ready to sell off half my semi-auto collection if I find it.
The AR15 got back from the gunsmith who polished the chamber, but we'll see.
Still researching this topic and I'm looking for feedback on the gas piston uppers.
Thanks for the link, Zak.
P.S.
My Bushmaster runs fine on factory ammo and then it craps out way too soon. I've recently been engaging in more aggressive training (and being an NRA Certified Firearms instructor) and my AR15 failed. I'm actually looking for something better and ready to sell off half my semi-auto collection if I find it.
The AR15 got back from the gunsmith who polished the chamber, but we'll see.
Still researching this topic and I'm looking for feedback on the gas piston uppers.
Thanks for the link, Zak.
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Just like 1911's, there are a lot of AR's out there that have problems. However, I cannot fail to notice that the 3Gun crowd and guys who train with AR15's regularly have figured out which ones work and have few to no problems. I can run my suppressed SBR dry for 2000+ rounds without failures. In any case, I know this is besides the point.
The 416 is kind of a moot point since HK won't sell it to peons.
I personally have high hopes for the Masada. I think the SIG 556 has some ergonomic problems.
The 416 is kind of a moot point since HK won't sell it to peons.
I personally have high hopes for the Masada. I think the SIG 556 has some ergonomic problems.
I don't have any first hand knowledge of the gas piston uppers. I like the ideal, but never found a problem with current guns. Cleaning might be an issue, but it is over rated. Back in the day has a young grunt I was on our battalions rifle team.
The Sergeant in charge had a concept that eat off your bolt carrier clean was bad. In fact during the training season we only wiped off our guns, no detailed cleaning. We fired two-three days a week and on average 300-400 rounds per session. After the 7th Army match we would have put at least 10,000 ea rounds down range with nothing more then a wipe down and no malfuntions. The cleaning after that was not fun.
I have also run close quarter marksmanship ranges for my unit, prior to retirement, and had soldier fire over 1,000 rounds each in a few hours in the rain snow, ect. Again no cleaning and very few malfunctions out of 130,000+ rounds. There are alot such has me from the school that at least in the military alot of our problems come from keeping the guns to clean and some of the wiz bang miricle lubes don't help either.
Where was I? Oh, my point was that some of the "formal" Army testing is starting to question the performance of the gas piston guns, has better then the current system. Nothing final, but a question mark on the UBER Piston Guns.
My other point was that a lot of units are shooting more rounds down range in a couple of years then the service life of the barrels which are supposed to be 6,000-10,000 rounds.
The Sergeant in charge had a concept that eat off your bolt carrier clean was bad. In fact during the training season we only wiped off our guns, no detailed cleaning. We fired two-three days a week and on average 300-400 rounds per session. After the 7th Army match we would have put at least 10,000 ea rounds down range with nothing more then a wipe down and no malfuntions. The cleaning after that was not fun.
I have also run close quarter marksmanship ranges for my unit, prior to retirement, and had soldier fire over 1,000 rounds each in a few hours in the rain snow, ect. Again no cleaning and very few malfunctions out of 130,000+ rounds. There are alot such has me from the school that at least in the military alot of our problems come from keeping the guns to clean and some of the wiz bang miricle lubes don't help either.
Where was I? Oh, my point was that some of the "formal" Army testing is starting to question the performance of the gas piston guns, has better then the current system. Nothing final, but a question mark on the UBER Piston Guns.
My other point was that a lot of units are shooting more rounds down range in a couple of years then the service life of the barrels which are supposed to be 6,000-10,000 rounds.