Anyone else here read Sun Tzu?

S

simonov jr

New member
Hard to "read" Art of War...

When confronted in business with a strategic challenge I begin to read the Art of War and the answer becomes apparent.

Can't agree more with this. When I'm in a real conflict, this book gets read DAILY. Honestly, it is SO damn solid and its principles so refined, that I can't honestly call it a book for "reading". No, I believe that it is a real blueprint for victory, and thus must actually be studied and reflected upon at great length. Am currently working on the 5 rings, also an incredible complement to Sun Tzu. Funny, I've had "Go" sitting around, never touched it. Might take another look at it...
 
4

44rugerfan

New member
I have a little pocket-sized version that is almost worn out. The lessons on war translate easily to everyday life. I like it.
 
R

ronin308

New member
The Art of War is incredible. I liked "The Book of Five Rings" but AOW is way better IMHO. Just to all of you obscure Japanese literature people out there, Yamamoto Tsunetomo, the author of Hidden Among the Leaves aka the Hagakure , was never in combat...ever. Its extremely interesting how a man can cultivate the martial ways without ever having to fight. Much like many of us at TFL don't get into shootouts, but we still live in the martial path

Dan
 
M

MBG

New member
An excellent companion to the Art of War is Sun Pin’s Military Methods. Sun Pin was Sun Tzu’s great grandson. My copy is translated / commentated by Ralph Sawyer, but I believe there are a few versions out there.

Marty
 
4

4V50 Gary

Staff
Thanks for the tip on Boyd

The Naval Institute Press had an article on the Mad Major. As a private, he once burned down the barracks because it was too cold and at his courtmartial, he used it to illustrate the inequities and neglect of his officers. Later commissioned, he became a crack fighter pilot and taught dogfighting. He often gave his opponent the advantage of being on his tail and within 1/2 a minute (or less), would be on his opponent's tail. He mused that with his low IQ (I think it was 97), he had to work and think harder and hence many of his original ideas.
 
G

Gabe

New member
Sun Tsu is amazing. There are many brilliant military thinkers, but few were as clairvoyant. Hard to believe someone that lived 2,500 years ago could be that smart and systematic. He must have wiped the floor with his adversaries.

There's another Chinese book on strategy, I forget the name. Basically it explains there are only 36 types of strategy. All tricks and schemes under the sun are variations thereof. They have names like "beating the grass to startle the snake" or "lure the tiger out of the mountain", "tactic of the beautiful woman" etc. Machiavelli would have loved it.

When you're faced with a difficult adversary, and you don't know what to do. It's very cool to realize you have 36 different ways to deal with him.
 
L

LoneStranger

New member
I will thank the many interesting books that are suggested in this. I hope that I will be able to read them in the future.
I see that Machiavelli's "The Prince" is mentioned several times. While it is somewhat interesting I would strongly suggest "The Discourses" as a more complete treatise on government. It is fun to sit and read what he say's in his book and see it play out the same way in real life.
 
J

John Lawson

New member
Sun Tsu is now considered the primer on the principles of conducting war.
There are some people in business who use it as a basis for business tactics. That seems to be the principle thing wrong with America. It's also called the "Harvard Business School Mentality."
Now listen:
Years ago, mom and pop businesses charged a few pennies more for groceries, but you could call up when you were sick and they would pick out nice produce for you, fill your order and deliver it to your door. During the depression, some even extended limited credit.
Slowly, the greedy bunch sllithered into American Busienss, and now if you walk into a hardware store and ask a question, a clerk gets a pained look across his/her/its face and tells you grudgingly or simply says "I dunno." The service factor is gone from small business and it has been replaced by cutthroat large chains who flog bad merchandise while extolling the merits of low retail prices. Lo and behold! You get only what you pay for!
Most major manufacturers have several grades of one single item. You'll find this out if yu ever have to make an insurance claim. They are robbing you of service, dignity as an individual, they are screwing you and asking you to do a little dance and appreciate their money-grubbing tactics, which are only empooyed so they can do nothing and draw large salaries at YOUR expense.
Perhaps it is time to strike back at these people using their own tactics. When an item proves to be below standard, SUE THEM. Don't sue the maker, sue the SOB who was flogging the crap knowing full well it was crap. Every time a clerk snubs you, SUE the retail chain. Hell, they have lots of money in Swiss bank accounts.
And, perhaps, mr. know-it-all, you will retire your copy of Sun Tsu and stop using it against your customers! HAHVAHD is, after all, the hole where the Kennedys all learned the socializing of America, and the HAHVAHD BUSINESS SCHOOL is doing just that. Their theory is that it will happen so slowly that you won't notice.
USE SUN TSU against these people....they are using it against you, by their own admission earlier in the thread.
And, if you come back we.ll kill your concubines.
 
B

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
Caveats

These are, by and large, good books. All but one is in my library-often in several editions.

But when you are dealing with translations, there are several items to keep in mind-the translator must be knowlegeable in both the language and the subject matter. If you must have more competence in one area-choose for competence in the subject matter. For an example of this, compare Cleary's translation of the Art of War to Marine General Samuel B. Griffith's translation. While Cleary's credentials as a classical Chinese scholar are undeniably greater than Griffith's, Griffith's much greater knowledge of strategy and war results in a better translation in several instances directly related to strategy.

The Book of Five Rings (Go Rin No Sho) translations suffer from a handicap. Japanese documents of the time which related to a ryu-ha (martial arts system or school, literal translation is a branching stream) were elliptical in nature as a security measure. They were companions to the orally transmitted lore of the ryu-ha. A mnemonic device. Therefore, the only competent translator of the Go Rin No Sho will be a person who is knowledgeable in classical Japanese, modern English, and is a fully licensed adept (menkyo kaiden) in the ryu-ha founded by Miyamoto Musashi-the Niten Ichi Ryu. Also this person will need the permission of the headmaster of the Niten Ichi Ryu to reveal the oral transmission of the ryu-ha as it relates to the translation. Unfortunately, no such person exists at present. If you want to spend ten years of hard study in Japan, the headmaster of the ryu-ha could perhaps be persuaded to accept a gaijin student. However, there is currently a project underway to attempt ,at the least, a better, if not perfect, translation of the Go Rin No Sho. Mr. Kim Taylor of the University of Guelph, is a student of Niten Ichi Ryu and is attempting a collaboratiing translation with between scholars and students of Niten Ichi Ryu. Email him at kataylor@uoguelph.ca

The Hagakure is basically perceived by historians as fantasy written by a samurai two hundred years after the last battle fought by samurai. The samurai of this time period were usually bureaucrats or farmers. Many had no idea of the basics of the sword. For an authoritative opionion, email kfriday@arches.uga.edu Dr. Friday is an associate professor of Japanese history and is menkyo kaiden in the Kashima Shin-ryu.

On War, by von Clausewitz is excellent. However, there are many editions of his work out there, many of which are unacknowledged abridgements. They are abridged and no where in the edition can you find acknowledgement of that fact. An unabridged 'On War' is several inches thick.

There are articles discussing how the German General Staffs of both WWI and WWII misunderstood von Clausewitz in developing the concept of total war. Unfortunately, I do not have the references for these as they are worth reading.
 
Last edited:
B

Blue Heeler

Moderator
I understand what John Lawson is saying.
The important thing to remember though,is that not everyone really understands how to apply the principles these "How To" books contain.And,if you read enough of them you can become confused,and forget how to think for youself.
I agree that Sun Tzu is brilliant-likewise the others,but Oriental thinking is not the same as Western thinking.
I recommend a study of Logic--there are plenty of good books at your local library.
 
B

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
McNamara and his boys tried to apply logic and "modern management practices" to the Art of War. The fiasco in Vietnam was the direct result.


"In war, everything is simple but the simple things are very hard." A quote by Sun Tzu? Musashi? Sun Pin? Some other Asian? No. It is a quote from "On War" by von Clausewitz. Apply logic to it...you won't get too far. War is largely an illogical process. To quote Tom Clancy,"War is armed robbery writ large."
 
J

Johan762

New member
A first world war British soldier commented: "Was is nothing but murder, conducted in the largest of scale!"

Anyway, sorry to go off topic. I must be dumb or something, but somehow I find that Sun Tzu's book is hard to understand and in many places, rather archaic. I read a few phrases from von Clusewitz' works in the library and I found that his work is more substantial than that of Sun Tzu's.

Anybody ever read "Romance of the Three Kingdom" compiled by Luo Guan Zhong (sp?). Now that's a good book. It is a historical novel "written" during the Mongol occupation, so it is spiced up a little bit. The Chinese, being conquered by the Mongols, were longing for their glory days, for the glorious martial exploits their forefathers attained.

This book is not only treatise on warfare and stratagems, but it also tell tales of individual military prowess, drunkennes, court intrigues, loyalties and betrayals. You can really understand how the Chinese think by reading this book.

Johannes
 
D

DeakonG

Guest
OK...so who's got the best translation...I just checked Amazon.com and it seemed there were over a dozen different translations...if I was looking for one that applied more to an overall life view, which is best???...it never fails to amaze me how well read this board is...

G
 
B

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
I prefer Samuel B. Griffith's translation of the Art of War by Sun Tzu. I also would not part with the translation by Roger Ames in the series "Classics of Ancient China" published by Ballantine Books. This translation makes use of documents discovered in an archaeological dig since Griffith's work.

In The Book of Five Rings translations, Americans with extensive time in Japan studying traditional martial arts (koryu-pre judo and pre karate) seem to like Victor Harris's translation best. But that's not to say they think it's a good translation just that it's the best available.

von Clausewitz's On War-I prefer the edition by The Center for International Studies, Princeton University, Princeton University Press. Edited and translated by Michael Howard and Peter Paret.
 
B

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
"For there has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefitted."

"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

It is obvious that our military and political leadership during the Vietnam War were either ignorant of the first quote or if not ignorant they deliberately failed to heed.

The second quote certainly could have made a difference if the BATF had thought of it in the days prior to their debacle at Waco.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top