Pigshooter
New member
In fact, I'm betting he was trying to coin a designation with a teutonic flair with the meaning "Battle Style" which of course would be syntaxed "Style [of] Battle".
Any difference between 9mm Luger/9mm Parabellum?
- Thread starter Foxy
- Start date
Pigshooter
New member
But back to the original question,
I noticed on 45 Win Mag that the rim thickness was greater on winchester brass as opposed to Starline. I never got to try Speer, although I do know where a few bags of them are.
The win cartridges would not feed properly in my automag, though starline would. Also, the win cartridges would not fit in a standard 45ACP shell plate, although the starline would. I used a combination of 454 dies and 45 ACP shell plates for reloading.
Maybe win (and others) 9mm follows a specific standard on the rim, while some follow something else? Maybe a min and max clearance issue?
I noticed on 45 Win Mag that the rim thickness was greater on winchester brass as opposed to Starline. I never got to try Speer, although I do know where a few bags of them are.
The win cartridges would not feed properly in my automag, though starline would. Also, the win cartridges would not fit in a standard 45ACP shell plate, although the starline would. I used a combination of 454 dies and 45 ACP shell plates for reloading.
Maybe win (and others) 9mm follows a specific standard on the rim, while some follow something else? Maybe a min and max clearance issue?
I will decline to get involved in tha parabellum vs para bellum vs Latin vs Greek..... from a German POV debate. I have no training in Greek or German and lost the books I bought and/or st-l- duing the 6 years I took Latin in HS and college, but the answer to the origin question is no.
9mm Lugar or Para same thing.
I did love the exchange and do not find it at all unusual that a discussion of the proper translation of a Latin/Greek phrase would be debated so on this site.
I find much about the knowledege and perspective displayed by the individuals that post here remarkable to say the least. (with or without the language credits).
S-
9mm Lugar or Para same thing.
I did love the exchange and do not find it at all unusual that a discussion of the proper translation of a Latin/Greek phrase would be debated so on this site.
I find much about the knowledege and perspective displayed by the individuals that post here remarkable to say the least. (with or without the language credits).
S-
Suppositions and Facts
Latin was, in the 19th century, known by almost all educated and wealthy Europeans. This is not a supposition, it is a fact. Don't believe me, research the matter.
"Georg Johann Luger was born on the 6th of March 1849 in Steinach am Brenner, Austria. His father, Bartholomaeus Luger was a surgeon. Georg Luger went to school in Padua, Italy and later to Commercial High School in Vienna. On the 19th of December, 1867, when he was seventeen, he volunteered for military service with the 78th Line Regiment."
Hence, he WAS a soldier. He WAS educated. And MOST educated Europeans (in the 19th cent.) knew Latin. I know the latter because I know Germans, I speak German, and I've studied European history. However these facts do not lead, in and of themselves to the conclusion that he would agree with me. I never stated that. Rather I was stating that he'd likely agree with the expression: "Si vis pacem para bellum".
This isn't any sort of revisionist history. Nor have I stated what Georg Luger MUST have thought. You'll note I have tried very hard to state that things are probable and likely, if I am less than certain. If one were so inclined one could further research Georg Luger's education. Latin offers many benefits to the cable operator, first and foremost it is a very compact language. When translating into English one often ends up with 2 and 4 times as long a translation as the original latin. It also has the advantage of being universal.
Additionally, the fact that "para" is used in english to mean a variety of things is wholly, and utterly irrelevent (as Luger spoke German) Parabellum was not made solely for English consumption. Additionally, few (if any) people combined Latin and Greek words to make single words before the invention of "TeleVision" reason being that it had always been the convention to either derive the name from Latin or Greek solely, rather than mixing the two.
The word has not been bifurcated by anybody. The Latin expression "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" is a famous one. Much more famous in fact than "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum" most people are unaware of its original source. That neither I, nor anyone else bothered to mention all of these details initially is no cause to assume that we were making them up to adjust to your arguments. The reason it was not mentioned (by me at least) is that it was not thought necessary, as most people who look into the matter are fully aware that it does in fact mean "prepare for war".
Ockham's razor, for those who are familiar with it outside the realm of the movies, was originally stated in, surprise: Latin.
"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate''
I won't bother translating, since Latin is such a worthless language.
Worth noting though. When applying Ockham's razor, it is only properly applied if the conclusions of the two theories are the same. Thus if we both conclude that "Parabellum" means "prepare for war" and my theory involves it coming directly from "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" and your theory involves it coming from "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" which suddenly sprung into Georg Luger's mind because he was talking to god. Then my theory is held to be the better as it is explained without forcing one to accept the existence of god.
And as far as people changing their story cause they got caught being wrong, the first person to do so in this thread was you, Mr Blackhawk.
Para has no relation to "for" in Latin.
Additionally you comment:
I'm curious as to where I implied that. Unless you are referring to the fact that the Germans substitute praeparat for praeparet.
From the other German source:
Der Name "Parabellum" wurde bei den Deutschen-Waffen un Munitionsfabriken übrigens aus dem lateinischen Satz "qui desiderat pacem praeparat bellum" (wer Frieden wünscht, bereitet den Krieg vor) bzw. aus dessen gekürzter Form "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (wenn du Frieden willst, bereite den Krieg vor) abgeleitet und zusammen mit der Pistole 08 und der 9mm Para weltberühmt.
The name "Parabellum" of the DWM was derived from the latin sentence "qui desiderat pacem praeparat bellum" (who wishes peace, should prepare for war), and/or from the shorter form, "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (if you want peace prepare [for] the war) together with the Pistole 08 and the world famous 9mm Para.
I'm tired of being the only one who's doing real research on the matter.
-Morgan
Latin was, in the 19th century, known by almost all educated and wealthy Europeans. This is not a supposition, it is a fact. Don't believe me, research the matter.
"Georg Johann Luger was born on the 6th of March 1849 in Steinach am Brenner, Austria. His father, Bartholomaeus Luger was a surgeon. Georg Luger went to school in Padua, Italy and later to Commercial High School in Vienna. On the 19th of December, 1867, when he was seventeen, he volunteered for military service with the 78th Line Regiment."
Hence, he WAS a soldier. He WAS educated. And MOST educated Europeans (in the 19th cent.) knew Latin. I know the latter because I know Germans, I speak German, and I've studied European history. However these facts do not lead, in and of themselves to the conclusion that he would agree with me. I never stated that. Rather I was stating that he'd likely agree with the expression: "Si vis pacem para bellum".
This isn't any sort of revisionist history. Nor have I stated what Georg Luger MUST have thought. You'll note I have tried very hard to state that things are probable and likely, if I am less than certain. If one were so inclined one could further research Georg Luger's education. Latin offers many benefits to the cable operator, first and foremost it is a very compact language. When translating into English one often ends up with 2 and 4 times as long a translation as the original latin. It also has the advantage of being universal.
Additionally, the fact that "para" is used in english to mean a variety of things is wholly, and utterly irrelevent (as Luger spoke German) Parabellum was not made solely for English consumption. Additionally, few (if any) people combined Latin and Greek words to make single words before the invention of "TeleVision" reason being that it had always been the convention to either derive the name from Latin or Greek solely, rather than mixing the two.
The word has not been bifurcated by anybody. The Latin expression "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" is a famous one. Much more famous in fact than "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum" most people are unaware of its original source. That neither I, nor anyone else bothered to mention all of these details initially is no cause to assume that we were making them up to adjust to your arguments. The reason it was not mentioned (by me at least) is that it was not thought necessary, as most people who look into the matter are fully aware that it does in fact mean "prepare for war".
Ockham's razor, for those who are familiar with it outside the realm of the movies, was originally stated in, surprise: Latin.
"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate''
I won't bother translating, since Latin is such a worthless language.
Worth noting though. When applying Ockham's razor, it is only properly applied if the conclusions of the two theories are the same. Thus if we both conclude that "Parabellum" means "prepare for war" and my theory involves it coming directly from "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" and your theory involves it coming from "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" which suddenly sprung into Georg Luger's mind because he was talking to god. Then my theory is held to be the better as it is explained without forcing one to accept the existence of god.
And as far as people changing their story cause they got caught being wrong, the first person to do so in this thread was you, Mr Blackhawk.
Para has no relation to "for" in Latin.
Additionally you comment:
I'm curious as to where I implied that. Unless you are referring to the fact that the Germans substitute praeparat for praeparet.
From the other German source:
Der Name "Parabellum" wurde bei den Deutschen-Waffen un Munitionsfabriken übrigens aus dem lateinischen Satz "qui desiderat pacem praeparat bellum" (wer Frieden wünscht, bereitet den Krieg vor) bzw. aus dessen gekürzter Form "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (wenn du Frieden willst, bereite den Krieg vor) abgeleitet und zusammen mit der Pistole 08 und der 9mm Para weltberühmt.
The name "Parabellum" of the DWM was derived from the latin sentence "qui desiderat pacem praeparat bellum" (who wishes peace, should prepare for war), and/or from the shorter form, "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (if you want peace prepare [for] the war) together with the Pistole 08 and the world famous 9mm Para.
I'm tired of being the only one who's doing real research on the matter.
-Morgan
CaesarI,
You can take up the relationship of "para" in Latin to "for" with that Merriam-Webster outfit you may have heard of. It says:
You ought to study what a conclusion is.
Again, you're very quick to draw conclusions from suppositions unsupported by facts.
I don't have any theory explaining the coining of parabellum except that it's a stroke of marketing genius! That involves selling stuff to people who don't care about what they don't know about. VERY base stuff! When they ask "What does parabellum mean?" the answer can be nearly anything and still be technically correct since lexicographers can make up any definition they want for what they make up. Kodak, a very famous trademark, means nothing, absolutely nothing! George Eastman postulated that the perfect trademark was 5 characters comprising 2 syllables, easy on the ear, and suggested nothing to the listener. Freon is another example along with Xerox. When you're through telling Merriam-Webster how to eat the cabbage, take on Kodak, Dupont, and Xerox.
No matter what its origins, Parabellum is an ingenious trademark. It means "For War" -- or whatever else you want it to mean....
You're tired, and this has gone on long enough. Who would have thought such a simple and easily answered question would get such play?
Get some rest. Really, get some rest....
You can take up the relationship of "para" in Latin to "for" with that Merriam-Webster outfit you may have heard of. It says:
As for Luger being educated, becoming a soldier at 17 doesn't leave much room for using "highly" in front of educated in describing his academic achievements.
You ought to study what a conclusion is.
LOL! Parabellem isn't a proper word, it's a trademark or name if you prefer. To support any linguistic argument, it has to be cut into two words, "para" and "bellum", or you're just sucking air.
So you don't think the educated Herr Luger knew anything about English even though he was trying to sell his invention to the Americans? He even went so far as to chamber it as a .45!
Again, you're very quick to draw conclusions from suppositions unsupported by facts.
I don't have any theory explaining the coining of parabellum except that it's a stroke of marketing genius! That involves selling stuff to people who don't care about what they don't know about. VERY base stuff! When they ask "What does parabellum mean?" the answer can be nearly anything and still be technically correct since lexicographers can make up any definition they want for what they make up. Kodak, a very famous trademark, means nothing, absolutely nothing! George Eastman postulated that the perfect trademark was 5 characters comprising 2 syllables, easy on the ear, and suggested nothing to the listener. Freon is another example along with Xerox. When you're through telling Merriam-Webster how to eat the cabbage, take on Kodak, Dupont, and Xerox.
LOL! Hasn't it dawned on you that you might be arguing with a squid? (Re: a comic strip formerly named "Ernie" (now "The Piranah Club"), where Ernie was sitting at a bar arguing with a squid, and the squid said "Don't blame me! You're the one arguing with a squid!") You implied nothing of the sort. I needed a segue to comparing linguist with linguini. It was a joke, but maybe they're not that far apart after all!
That problem might arise from the fact that you're probably the only one (maybe there are two more) who really cares about the matter. I don't.
No matter what its origins, Parabellum is an ingenious trademark. It means "For War" -- or whatever else you want it to mean....
You're tired, and this has gone on long enough. Who would have thought such a simple and easily answered question would get such play?
Get some rest. Really, get some rest....
Blackhawk:
Sadly, even MasterBlaster has abanoned your cause.
"Para Bellum" - Prepare (for) War. The "for" is not necessary in Latin. Why is it so hard to get that?
It seems to me that someone here hates losing an argument so much that he just goes on grasping at straws when everyone else has left his side.
Skorzeny
And yet, you don't quit and continue to want to be the last word on the subject.
Sadly, even MasterBlaster has abanoned your cause.
"Para Bellum" - Prepare (for) War. The "for" is not necessary in Latin. Why is it so hard to get that?
First of all, Merriam-Webster is an English dictionary, not a Latin one. Secondly, it's "etymology" - word origin, not word translation.
While I won't call anyone at age 17 "highly educated," Germans of that historical period (like any well-to-do Europeans of that period) were much better trained in the classics than, say, the average college students of the US today.
It seems to me that someone here hates losing an argument so much that he just goes on grasping at straws when everyone else has left his side.
Skorzeny
MasterBlaster
New member
Then shut up already.
Then shut up already.
Remember what I said about pistols at 10 paces?
Tired, yes, but establishing the facts of the matter are important to me as nothing motivates me more than someone else saying that which is not true.
Let's talk Merriam-Webster.
"para"
"Function: prefix"
Thus we see that according to Merriam-Webster, para, in English functions as a prefix. It does no such thing in German, or Latin, or Greek. The link to Latin likely comes from Greek words that were taken directly from Greek, transliterated, and then adopted. Like parallel, mostly mathematical terms. Exception: parasite, parasitus, parasitos (Eng, Lat, Grk).
The Greek para however has only an indirect relation to "for"
When it takes the accusative: along, beside; against, to; compared with; except.
genitive: from
dative: with, beside, in the presence of
along war, beside war, against war, to war, compared with war, except war, from war (even though bellum would have to become belli), with war (bello), beside war, in the presence of war
para has only come to mean "for" when it is used as an English prefix.
The odds of Georg Luger using ENGLISH prefix's to name something is not worth discussing, as the latter half of parabellum is undoubtably latin. Georg Luger may have indeed known English, but now, once again you're telling me that it is more likely that Luger knew Latin AND English, than merely Latin alone. As you've already stated he only had 17 years of education. English, was not as prevalent in German schools in the 19th century, as neither America nor England had emerged as absolutely dominant powers yet. While it remains possible for Luger to have known English, I will contend that the odds of him knowing Latin alone are greater as the Classics played a major role in all European education at the time, whereas English did not.
Not once have I referred to Georg Luger as "highly educated" why don't you review my posts. Highly educated would imply higher education. "educated" merely implies that he has received an education. 17 year olds however can be very educated. By the age of 17 I had learned Latin for 3 years, and German for 5. Young people can be VERY well educated if they do a lot of reading rather than playing. Moreover you'll note his father was a doctor and he sent Georg to private foreign schools. There's a fine University that has been extant in Padua since 1583.
Where in that entire quote of myself, did I state that Luger did not know anything about English? I did not state that he did either. His native language was with very little doubt, German. As far as drawing conclusion from suppositions unsupported by facts... I fail to see how Luger chambering a cartridge for the .45 in any way necessitates him being educated in English. Last time I checked one need not know the English language in order to change the designs of a handgun to support a .45 caliber bullet.
Ockham's razor would seem to favor me in this situation. It seems far easier for a person to simply chop off the first part of the quote, and put the last two words together and form "Parabellum" than it would be for someone to place an English prefix onto a Latin word. Particularly since it was as simple as taking their cable address and sticking it onto the end of the stupid cartridge. This same name was applied to at least two cartridges, a pistol and a machinegun. It is obvious then that it was not created for the sole purpose of the 9mm cartridge. Thus
While it is impossible to know based on the current data available to me why exactly someone chose Parabellum 100 years ago. I can say quite certainly that the data available suggests that it is FAR more likely that Parabellum comes from simply combining the last to words in the latin quotation, "Si vis pacem para bellum" than any other theories that have been thrown out.
The fact that two German sources have corroborated that fact, as well as every single book on cartridges I've found at the library, suggests that everyone else around the world seems very thoroughly convinced that Parabellum comes from "Si vis pacem para bellum". That being the case I suggest that anyone who disagrees with this interpretation take it up with the various sources I've sited, and go pester them.
-Morgan
Side Note: Latin and ancient Greek are not consistent between one another with regards to conjugation and structure. Entirely different languages from entirely different branches of the Indo-European root. The origin of the phrase, "It's Greek to me" is in another Latin quote. I'd dig up the source for you right quick, but I've met my quota for today. ancient Greek back then was a bit more difficult.
BECAUSETHINGSWEREWRITTENINALLCAPSWITHNOSPACES.
And yet again, I digress.
Let's talk Merriam-Webster.
"para"
"Function: prefix"
Thus we see that according to Merriam-Webster, para, in English functions as a prefix. It does no such thing in German, or Latin, or Greek. The link to Latin likely comes from Greek words that were taken directly from Greek, transliterated, and then adopted. Like parallel, mostly mathematical terms. Exception: parasite, parasitus, parasitos (Eng, Lat, Grk).
The Greek para however has only an indirect relation to "for"
When it takes the accusative: along, beside; against, to; compared with; except.
genitive: from
dative: with, beside, in the presence of
along war, beside war, against war, to war, compared with war, except war, from war (even though bellum would have to become belli), with war (bello), beside war, in the presence of war
para has only come to mean "for" when it is used as an English prefix.
The odds of Georg Luger using ENGLISH prefix's to name something is not worth discussing, as the latter half of parabellum is undoubtably latin. Georg Luger may have indeed known English, but now, once again you're telling me that it is more likely that Luger knew Latin AND English, than merely Latin alone. As you've already stated he only had 17 years of education. English, was not as prevalent in German schools in the 19th century, as neither America nor England had emerged as absolutely dominant powers yet. While it remains possible for Luger to have known English, I will contend that the odds of him knowing Latin alone are greater as the Classics played a major role in all European education at the time, whereas English did not.
Not once have I referred to Georg Luger as "highly educated" why don't you review my posts. Highly educated would imply higher education. "educated" merely implies that he has received an education. 17 year olds however can be very educated. By the age of 17 I had learned Latin for 3 years, and German for 5. Young people can be VERY well educated if they do a lot of reading rather than playing. Moreover you'll note his father was a doctor and he sent Georg to private foreign schools. There's a fine University that has been extant in Padua since 1583.
Where in that entire quote of myself, did I state that Luger did not know anything about English? I did not state that he did either. His native language was with very little doubt, German. As far as drawing conclusion from suppositions unsupported by facts... I fail to see how Luger chambering a cartridge for the .45 in any way necessitates him being educated in English. Last time I checked one need not know the English language in order to change the designs of a handgun to support a .45 caliber bullet.
Ockham's razor would seem to favor me in this situation. It seems far easier for a person to simply chop off the first part of the quote, and put the last two words together and form "Parabellum" than it would be for someone to place an English prefix onto a Latin word. Particularly since it was as simple as taking their cable address and sticking it onto the end of the stupid cartridge. This same name was applied to at least two cartridges, a pistol and a machinegun. It is obvious then that it was not created for the sole purpose of the 9mm cartridge. Thus
Is meaningless. . The DWM named [practically] all of their products with the parabellum name. The DWM (German Weapons and Munitions Manufacturer) is thus a company that can prepare its clients for wars. S&W puts that name on all of their products, makes sense from a brand loyalty perspective. If it has "Parabellum" on it, it was designed by DWM.
While it is impossible to know based on the current data available to me why exactly someone chose Parabellum 100 years ago. I can say quite certainly that the data available suggests that it is FAR more likely that Parabellum comes from simply combining the last to words in the latin quotation, "Si vis pacem para bellum" than any other theories that have been thrown out.
The fact that two German sources have corroborated that fact, as well as every single book on cartridges I've found at the library, suggests that everyone else around the world seems very thoroughly convinced that Parabellum comes from "Si vis pacem para bellum". That being the case I suggest that anyone who disagrees with this interpretation take it up with the various sources I've sited, and go pester them.
-Morgan
Side Note: Latin and ancient Greek are not consistent between one another with regards to conjugation and structure. Entirely different languages from entirely different branches of the Indo-European root. The origin of the phrase, "It's Greek to me" is in another Latin quote. I'd dig up the source for you right quick, but I've met my quota for today. ancient Greek back then was a bit more difficult.
BECAUSETHINGSWEREWRITTENINALLCAPSWITHNOSPACES.
And yet again, I digress.
CaesarI
Certainly you would get an exemplary mark were this an academic exercise, and I would feel bad about my mocking behavior if it was. But we're talking about a trademark -- not a word -- of indeterminate origin.
Maybe Luger thought it up, but maybe a licensee did. "Luger" was trademarked to apply to the cartridge, and personalizing products was, and still is, very common. Did DWM exist or license the product before 1904? Perhaps Luger had nothing to do with "Parabellum" before DWM showed up.
Carpe linguini!
Certainly you would get an exemplary mark were this an academic exercise, and I would feel bad about my mocking behavior if it was. But we're talking about a trademark -- not a word -- of indeterminate origin.
Maybe Luger thought it up, but maybe a licensee did. "Luger" was trademarked to apply to the cartridge, and personalizing products was, and still is, very common. Did DWM exist or license the product before 1904? Perhaps Luger had nothing to do with "Parabellum" before DWM showed up.
Hyperbole lives! Maybe some -- even a majority -- of those few who've studied it are convinced. But there are still those who are convinced that it's just a trademark....
Carpe linguini!
I'll amend the previous hyperbolic statement.
Everyone else around the world, who have studied the matter, seem very thoroughly convinced that it Parabellum comes from "Si vis pacem para bellum". This "maybe some even a majority" nonsense doesn't stand up. You've provided me with no sources to support an alternative explanation of "Parabellum" none, not one. You've got no legs to stand on. All you can do is criticize other people who've gone out of their way to preserve the rich tradition of the names of firearms and their cartridges.
Maybe they named the .38 S&W Special the .38 S&W Special just because they liked .38 better than .357 how can we know what they were thinking, it's just a trademark and not a name. So let's forget the colorful history. Obviously since it's a trademark it can't have a history behind it. Obviously we should listen to someone who speaks no German, knows no German history, knows no Latin, and can't bother to do any research.
As far as "before DWM showed up" Luger worked for DWM while he was designing the Pistole Parabellum. DWM therefore, existed before the pistol, and both Parabellum cartridges. If you examine the earlier posts, Parabellum their cable address as well.
Trademarks have origins, and, despite legal meaning, are in fact "words" they may be proper nouns, but they are words nonetheless, and all words have origins. Kodak, apparently, has origins (according to yourself). Though you've given us no sources to support your claim. It is entirely possible that the Germans sources I've sited have more direct evidence that "Si vis pacem para bellum" was the source. Since these are all published sources, it makes sense to presume they'd have researched the matter and would not have simply printed it because it sounded nice. While integrity in journalism may be dying out, people like myself will try their damnedest to ensure that it does not by keeping published sources on their toes, and always questioning their sources.
While you seem to be trying to do precisely that you're apparently, not very familiar with the rules.
1. I question a newspapers sources for a fact.
2. They provide the source.
3. I then examine that source, if I question that I am given that source as well, which I must then find.
4. I find a review discrediting this final source.
5. I present the evidence to the newspaper who then make the necessary correction (presuming of course they are an honest newspaper).
When etymologists go about examining the origins of modern words they can sometimes run into words that have multiple possible roots. They must then, based on available information, choose which is most likely to be the source, often times this relatively easy, other times it is a calculated guess.
All available data STRONGLY indicates the origins are as I've already stated. You've presented no sources to support your interpretation. Merriam-Webster's source for an English prefix has no bearing on German's be they Georg Luger, or some other German (I note that while the source may NOT be German, I think most will concede the odds are pretty good he/she was). That being the case you've got nothing.
In short, while this has allowed me to gain more knowledge about the 9mm Parabellum than I ever thought necessary, the burden of proof has always rested in your court, and not in mine, since the accepted view is my view. You need sources in order to make claims to the contrary. Since you are unable, or unwilling to provide any sources... this little debate is over.
-Morgan
Everyone else around the world, who have studied the matter, seem very thoroughly convinced that it Parabellum comes from "Si vis pacem para bellum". This "maybe some even a majority" nonsense doesn't stand up. You've provided me with no sources to support an alternative explanation of "Parabellum" none, not one. You've got no legs to stand on. All you can do is criticize other people who've gone out of their way to preserve the rich tradition of the names of firearms and their cartridges.
Maybe they named the .38 S&W Special the .38 S&W Special just because they liked .38 better than .357 how can we know what they were thinking, it's just a trademark and not a name. So let's forget the colorful history. Obviously since it's a trademark it can't have a history behind it. Obviously we should listen to someone who speaks no German, knows no German history, knows no Latin, and can't bother to do any research.
As far as "before DWM showed up" Luger worked for DWM while he was designing the Pistole Parabellum. DWM therefore, existed before the pistol, and both Parabellum cartridges. If you examine the earlier posts, Parabellum their cable address as well.
Trademarks have origins, and, despite legal meaning, are in fact "words" they may be proper nouns, but they are words nonetheless, and all words have origins. Kodak, apparently, has origins (according to yourself). Though you've given us no sources to support your claim. It is entirely possible that the Germans sources I've sited have more direct evidence that "Si vis pacem para bellum" was the source. Since these are all published sources, it makes sense to presume they'd have researched the matter and would not have simply printed it because it sounded nice. While integrity in journalism may be dying out, people like myself will try their damnedest to ensure that it does not by keeping published sources on their toes, and always questioning their sources.
While you seem to be trying to do precisely that you're apparently, not very familiar with the rules.
1. I question a newspapers sources for a fact.
2. They provide the source.
3. I then examine that source, if I question that I am given that source as well, which I must then find.
4. I find a review discrediting this final source.
5. I present the evidence to the newspaper who then make the necessary correction (presuming of course they are an honest newspaper).
When etymologists go about examining the origins of modern words they can sometimes run into words that have multiple possible roots. They must then, based on available information, choose which is most likely to be the source, often times this relatively easy, other times it is a calculated guess.
All available data STRONGLY indicates the origins are as I've already stated. You've presented no sources to support your interpretation. Merriam-Webster's source for an English prefix has no bearing on German's be they Georg Luger, or some other German (I note that while the source may NOT be German, I think most will concede the odds are pretty good he/she was). That being the case you've got nothing.
In short, while this has allowed me to gain more knowledge about the 9mm Parabellum than I ever thought necessary, the burden of proof has always rested in your court, and not in mine, since the accepted view is my view. You need sources in order to make claims to the contrary. Since you are unable, or unwilling to provide any sources... this little debate is over.
-Morgan
Further Debate
One of the interesting documents I found on my fabulous search...
http://www.user.dccnet.com/welcomewoods/Nuclear_Free_Georgia_Strait/cliche.htm
This fellow claims that preparing for war does not lead to peace, and claims moreover to have scientific evidence of it as well.
I suggest those looking to hunt for logical flaws direct their energy here.
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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:02:03 -0800
From: Mike Wallace mdwallac@unixg.ubc.ca
"Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem"
(Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know know to be superior in battle)
From this maxim of the 4th century Roman general Vegetius Flavius Maximus was born an enduring cliche, perhaps the most influential Big Lie of the departing century. On Friday, speaking to an audience of Winnipeg high school students and antiwar protestors, Prime Minister Chretien trotted it out once again.
Old V.F. was a lousy general; the Germans usually beat him unless he hired them as mercenaries. And what has become known as his "para bellum principle" has been proven completely WRONG by scientific, empirical, very academically respectable research.
Twenty years ago I first published a study which examined hundreds of conflicts between states. I found that those conflicts preceded by an arms buildup almost always (87%) escalated to all-out war; those NOT preceded by an arms race seldom did (11%). Since my paper (Journal of Conflict Resolution, 1979) was published right at the beginning of Reagan's campaign, American academic Cold Warriors turned attacking my findings into a minor cottage industry. Despite this, my work won me an academic prize, and, much more important, my results have been strongly confirmed by subsequent studies. In the next issue of the Journal of Peace Research, a young professor from Vanderbilt not only confirms my conclusions with her own data and statistics, but states that had I used different methods, my refutation of "para bellum" would have been even stronger!
Now this is all very nice for the academic ego, but of course almost everyone reading this will have already come to this same conclusion intuitively. But now, when someone repeats the old cliche, you can do more than say: "that's b.s." You can say, "that's b.s., AND THERE IS SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO PROVE IT IS B.S.!"
I will supply on request all necessary detailed academic references for the scholar-squirrels. In the meantime, keep reminding everyone in every medium you can access: MILITARY BUILDUPS DON'T STOP WARS, THEY START THEM. And, to end with some more Latin, "non illegitime carborundum" (don't let the bastards wear you down).
Pax vobiscum.
Michael D. Wallace
Department of Political Science
University of British Columbia
phone604)822-4550, fax:822-5540
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Pax vobiscum = peace be with you.
I just love it when people analyze historical events as complicated as wars and boil them down to pretty little numbers.
It is of course IMPOSSIBLE that those nations that have arms races HAVE arms races because they are more committed to war, or because they are starting at approximately equal military levels.
Si vis pacem para bellum... generally requires that those who prepare for war do so well in advance of the war. When was the last time you saw Tonga (small island in the pacific the crown prince is a nice guy, plays tennis) try and attack the United States?
-Morgan
One of the interesting documents I found on my fabulous search...
http://www.user.dccnet.com/welcomewoods/Nuclear_Free_Georgia_Strait/cliche.htm
This fellow claims that preparing for war does not lead to peace, and claims moreover to have scientific evidence of it as well.
I suggest those looking to hunt for logical flaws direct their energy here.
******************************
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:02:03 -0800
From: Mike Wallace mdwallac@unixg.ubc.ca
"Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem"
(Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know know to be superior in battle)
From this maxim of the 4th century Roman general Vegetius Flavius Maximus was born an enduring cliche, perhaps the most influential Big Lie of the departing century. On Friday, speaking to an audience of Winnipeg high school students and antiwar protestors, Prime Minister Chretien trotted it out once again.
Old V.F. was a lousy general; the Germans usually beat him unless he hired them as mercenaries. And what has become known as his "para bellum principle" has been proven completely WRONG by scientific, empirical, very academically respectable research.
Twenty years ago I first published a study which examined hundreds of conflicts between states. I found that those conflicts preceded by an arms buildup almost always (87%) escalated to all-out war; those NOT preceded by an arms race seldom did (11%). Since my paper (Journal of Conflict Resolution, 1979) was published right at the beginning of Reagan's campaign, American academic Cold Warriors turned attacking my findings into a minor cottage industry. Despite this, my work won me an academic prize, and, much more important, my results have been strongly confirmed by subsequent studies. In the next issue of the Journal of Peace Research, a young professor from Vanderbilt not only confirms my conclusions with her own data and statistics, but states that had I used different methods, my refutation of "para bellum" would have been even stronger!
Now this is all very nice for the academic ego, but of course almost everyone reading this will have already come to this same conclusion intuitively. But now, when someone repeats the old cliche, you can do more than say: "that's b.s." You can say, "that's b.s., AND THERE IS SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO PROVE IT IS B.S.!"
I will supply on request all necessary detailed academic references for the scholar-squirrels. In the meantime, keep reminding everyone in every medium you can access: MILITARY BUILDUPS DON'T STOP WARS, THEY START THEM. And, to end with some more Latin, "non illegitime carborundum" (don't let the bastards wear you down).
Pax vobiscum.
Michael D. Wallace
Department of Political Science
University of British Columbia
phone
604)822-4550, fax:822-5540 ****************************
Pax vobiscum = peace be with you.
I just love it when people analyze historical events as complicated as wars and boil them down to pretty little numbers.
It is of course IMPOSSIBLE that those nations that have arms races HAVE arms races because they are more committed to war, or because they are starting at approximately equal military levels.
Si vis pacem para bellum... generally requires that those who prepare for war do so well in advance of the war. When was the last time you saw Tonga (small island in the pacific the crown prince is a nice guy, plays tennis) try and attack the United States?
-Morgan
I've noticed this trend before - of equating correlations or coincidence with causality.
Another example: "high rate of gun possession increases the rate of accidental gun deaths." Perhaps true enough, but this correlations is often used to "demonstrate" that "high rate of gun possession increases the rate of accidental deaths."
That's like "proving" that a high rate of car ownership increases the rate of car-related accidental deaths and then implying, therefore, that a high rate of car ownership increases accidental deaths, period.
Skorzeny
Another example: "high rate of gun possession increases the rate of accidental gun deaths." Perhaps true enough, but this correlations is often used to "demonstrate" that "high rate of gun possession increases the rate of accidental deaths."
That's like "proving" that a high rate of car ownership increases the rate of car-related accidental deaths and then implying, therefore, that a high rate of car ownership increases accidental deaths, period.
Skorzeny
CaesarI,
A debate is when an advocate of a particular position is obligated to persuade and convince others to subscribe to that position. A discussion is when all parties are open to other points of view.
Notwithstanding any of the preceding posts, Parabellum is a trademark, Luger is a trademark and a name, para and bellum are words, both qualifying for inclusion is standard dictionaries, and you've been promoting parabellem as something it's not, i.e., a word in the dictionary sense.
The discussion you thought was a debate is, indeed, concluded.
Carpe linguini!
It never has been a debate. This isn't a debate board. It's a discussion board. I guess I should have known based on some of the behavior that such a simple fact was not comprehended by all the participants!
A debate is when an advocate of a particular position is obligated to persuade and convince others to subscribe to that position. A discussion is when all parties are open to other points of view.
Notwithstanding any of the preceding posts, Parabellum is a trademark, Luger is a trademark and a name, para and bellum are words, both qualifying for inclusion is standard dictionaries, and you've been promoting parabellem as something it's not, i.e., a word in the dictionary sense.
The discussion you thought was a debate is, indeed, concluded.
Carpe linguini!
MasterBlaster
New member
A whiff of hubris....
Edited due to poster's stupidity, dyslexia, partial blindness and anal leackage. (See below.)
To read the original, hack into the TFL site and....
Just kidding, guys! (Don't kick me out. It wasn't me.)
Edited due to poster's stupidity, dyslexia, partial blindness and anal leackage. (See below.)
To read the original, hack into the TFL site and....
Just kidding, guys!
(Don't kick me out. It wasn't me.)
Last edited:
MasterBlaster:
Skorzeny
Huh? Did you not read what CaesarI wrote?
I think that he was alerting us about the logical flaws of that particular article, which also claims that Vegetius was wrong. I get the feeling that you thought CaesarI either wrote, or agreed with, the article.
Skorzeny