Anti's New Scare Tactic in the Face of Heller Decision.

Musketeer

New member
As a libertarian I think people should have the right to do with their life as they wish. I do not agree with suicide generally and will work to stop it but it is a personal right.

I am far more concerned about the dangers pools pose to "the children."

Estimated guns in the United States: 275 million (roughly).

Estimated swimming pools in the United States: 2.5 million (roughly - according to Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, 2004)

Unintentional firearm deaths ages 0-14 (according to the CDC) from 2000 to 2005: 412.

Unintentional drowning deaths from 2000 to 2005 ages 0-14: 4,993.
 

USAFNoDak

New member
I just dont see how someone shooting themselves in the head, in the privacy of thier own home, is the governments business at all,

One word, "taxes". With government spending out of control, they need as many taxpayers as they can get. Why do they turn a blind eye to people coming in illegally? Taxes. Schools want more kids so they can get more funding from the federal and state governments. That's the government's reason for wanting to prevent suicides, in my opinion.

As for the anti gun folks, they are looking for any "tragedy", including suicides, to make an arguement that citizens should not have guns, for our own safety if nothing else.
 
Holy!!! HowardCohodas just gave me a wonderful idea. We should try to push for legislation requireing gun free homes to have that sticker displayed in their front window. Seems only fair, after all if they want to have the right to know whos packin then we should also have the right to know who isnt.

It would be awesome to see how many Anti gunners "slide" away from this idea out of fear of advertising they have a gun free home. Even though they love to institute gun free zones!!!!

AWESOME IDEA!!!!. But we will also have to make sure that they don't have bars on their windows also, You know how dangerous they can be in a fire. Also no guard dogs either. They can be a public threat. :eek:
 

44 AMP

Staff
Basic moral worldview

To me, it comes down to a basic moral worldview, and that is, who owns you?

Think for a minute, and honestly answer the question. Who owns you? Do you? Does your God? Your government? Your family? Who?

Many "experts" say we already have too many people on this planet. Other than the personal loss in our lives (which is about us, not the suicide "victim") wouldn't we all be better off if those people who want to check out are allowed to?

The whole idea of suicide as a sin or a bad thing is very cultural. Our culture, based on "traditional" Judeo-Christian values, considers suicide a bad thing. The influence of the Catholic church and other Christian teaching prohibit suicide as a mortal sin. The only non-forgivable sin. (because under the rules, yo have to ask for forgivness, and mean it, before you die. You are not allowed to ask for forgiveness in advance.) Suicides traditionally were refused burial in hallowed ground, and were considered damned for eternity. They really, really didn't want people doing this. I beleive that this attitude comes from the very early days of the religion, when numbers of believers were small, and they (the church) wanted people to do everything they could to increase (and protect) the number of believers. Also note the traditional Catholic attitude over birth control. A reasonable attitude for a minority religion who wants to become a majority one, or even just survive.

Other cultures in the world do not have our attitude about suicide. They see it as everything from an individual right to a glorious expression of faith and belief in a cause. Ancient (and possibly even modern) Japan viewed suicide as the ultimate apology (when accepted) and an honorable way to die. Modern Islamic suicide bombers and jihadists view suicide as the path to Paradise, the ultimate expression of their faith and devotion.

Still other cultures have viewed suicide as something personal and entirely the choice of the individual.

So, who owns you? If you think you do, then you must believe that others own themselves as well. And if they do, isn't it their choice what to do or not do with their lives?

Personally, I like to keep my options open.
 

RDak

New member
Oh, the suicide argument is a decades old strawman argument. Just the anti's crybabying IMHO. Like Yellowfin said, "just more drivel".:D:D:D

Legally this is a meaningless argument now that we have Heller. In fact, reasonable people on both sides have always felt the suicide argument was "drivel" from all the years I've been following this issue.

It has absolutely no legal place in the Heller decision and should just be disregarded. In Michigan, where I live, some rabidly anti-gun State legislators brought up that argument long ago and it didn't even see the light of day. And it never will IMHO.
 

USAFNoDak

New member
Wasn't it people on the left who said that Jack Kervorkian should be allowed to "help" people commit suicide if that's what they really wanted to do? If someone is terminally ill and wants to check out, should they be allowed to do so? If someone's answer is "yes" to that question, then the follow on question should be, "then shouldn't they be allowed to have the most efficient tool to do so?". The anti gunners say that firearms are the most efficient tool for committing suicide. I don't disagree with them. But that's no reason to limit the possession of firearms by other law abiding citizens who have no desire to commit suicide. This is just one more tired wind song that the anti's use to try and garner wider support for their side.
 

JWT

New member
The liberal folks in Oregon favor assisted suicide. Other states are considering legalization of it, yet their liberal brethern, the anti gun folks, warn against it - IF it's done with a gun. Interesting indeed.

If there's any possible angle for an argument about gun ownership the Brady Bunch will come up with it.
 

USAFNoDak

New member
The liberal folks in Oregon favor assisted suicide. Other states are considering legalization of it, yet their liberal brethern, the anti gun folks, warn against it - IF it's done with a gun. Interesting indeed.

I got it. Liberals don't want anybody to be able to do anything "BY THEMSELVES", without liberal assistance. Thus, they want suicide laws which allow "assisted" suicide, where the government has control over who does the assisting. If you off yourself with a handgun, then the liberals won't have a "hand" in your suicide (pun intended). Thus, they want to warn us all (falsely) that the presence of guns increases the risk of unassisted suicide. That must be their master plan. Liberals don't seem to conduct politics in any random fashion. There is always an agenda, which typically includes them having more power and/or control. :p
 
Anti's New Scare Tactic in the Face of Heller Decision.

Holy cow, where have you been? This isn't a new scare tactic, but a statistic that has been brought up time and time again over the years.

You believe this to be new because you were focussed elesewhere, right?

Here is a 2001 study on the matter, the first that came up in my google search...
http://psychservices.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/52/8/999

Here is the second hit. It notes suicides are higher in communities with more guns. Notes that it is in 2007 and before Heller as well.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/health/17risk.html

There are all sorts of articles and propaganda on this before Heller. It is nothing new.
 

USAFNoDak

New member
DNS, I was pointing out that in the face of the NEW Heller decision, it seems the liberals have trotted out the old, More guns = More suicide. You are right, this is very old. But the Heller decision took away their biggest debating chip, that being the 2nd amendment means only that states are free to arm their own militias. We all know that was a rediculous arguement, but they clung to it like people in the midwest cling to religion and our guns.

So, no, I wasn't doing a Rip Van Winkle and sleeping for the last 20 years. I'm just pointing out that the liberals must have gotten together after Heller to discuss their strategy on how to convince the US that guns should not be owned by law abiding citizens. Suicide is the next best debating point that they could come up with, apparently. Sorry if I looked like a rube in my earlier post.
 

copenhagen

New member
Suicide Enhances the Gene Pool

In my humble opinion, if an individual kills themselves intentionally, it is for the best that they do not reproduce or further influence offspring that they may already have. Therefore, this argument holds absolutely no water to me- by all means, if you want to off yourself, knock yourself out.. pardon the pun.
 

44 AMP

Staff
The liberals want a hand in it...

Accurate, and right on! You see, they don't want us doing it by ourselves! USAFNoDak, nice call. But take it just a bit further. You see, the govt authority for assisted suicide could later be turned into govt authority for required suicide, AKA Euthanasia. Of course, they will all claim this could never be the case, but once they have the power, only constant effort (and maybe not even that) will keep them from using it against us.

To sidestep for just a moment, my wife is anti-abortion, but she is strongly pro choice. She feels the choice should be no abortion, but we must have the choice. Her argument, and it makes fine sense to me, is that the same govt power that says "you cannot" is also the power to say "you must", entirely depending on the point of view of the leadership.

And I see a similar possibility here, with "assisted suicide". Allowing govt to intrude into what is an entirely private matter, AND bring with them their ideas of control, certification, and what is right and proper is a slippery slope, at the bottom of which lies something like Nazi Germany, dependant entirely on the political outlook and mental stability of the ruling class.

The Nazis had no issues with "helping" to end the lives of many mental patients, and the terminally ill (for the good of the race), before they went on to focus their efforts against those other "undesirables" such as Jews, Gypsys, homosexuals, and political dissidents, etc.

The whole argument that we are at greater risk of XXXX because there are handguns in our lives is a crock. But it pervades the anti gunners agenda, and has bled over into the medical and insurance estblishments to some degree as well.

I work for a govt subcontractor, all govt rules apply. Several years ago, as part of our annual medical evaluation (performed by another subcontractor) a "risk assessment" form was included. The analysis of which was performed by yet another subcontractor. All the usual questions about smoking, drinking, seat belt use, driving above the speed limit, etc., including one question about whether or not I or anyone in my family had been involved in a violent encounter in the last 5 years. Not one single question about guns, shooting, or crime, only the "violent encounter" question.

When the results were returned to us a few weeks later, one of the steps we were advised to take to improve our risk factors was "avoid handguns"! Now, most of the time I ignore this kind of crap, but this time I just couldn't. I pitched a fit to my boss, and going through company channels, I continued to pitch a fit to the company management, including Human Rights/EEO people and others. And they AGREED with me (although not always for the same reasons). The risk assesment company had clearly gone beyond its authority, and the next year, they didn't have the contract any more! Even the management who were not pro gun (and there were some) were upset, because by advising us to avoid handguns, without even asking a single question remotely relevant to firrearms, it called all the rest of their conclusions into question. It indicated a bias, and made all of their data suspect. You can do a lot of things working under a govt contract, but this was something you cannot do and get away with it. it reflects poorly on the bureaucrats who issued the contract to the "unreliable" subcontractor, and embarrassing the bureaucrats is something they will not forgive.

If handguns were so dangerous to us all, simply by their very presence, considering that there are many millions of them out there in private hands, not to mention all those in the hands of uniformed and non uniformed govt employees, we ought to have millions of handgun deaths every year. We do not. Therefore, I ,must conclude that the risk due to the simple presence of handguns is what we call a LIE!
 

USAFNoDak

New member
In part of 44AMP's post was this:
work for a govt subcontractor, all govt rules apply. Several years ago, as part of our annual medical evaluation (performed by another subcontractor) a "risk assessment" form was included. The analysis of which was performed by yet another subcontractor. All the usual questions about smoking, drinking, seat belt use, driving above the speed limit, etc., including one question about whether or not I or anyone in my family had been involved in a violent encounter in the last 5 years. Not one single question about guns, shooting, or crime, only the "violent encounter" question.

Great post 44AMP. Let's disect this "violent encounter" question. Let's say you answered yes to that. Then, lets say that this data somehow was put into your medical records. This could happen someday, especially working for the government. Then, when you apply to get a CCW permit, you are denied, because you answered yes to that question, and the chief LEO used that to label you as a "risk". I'm suspecting a judge in a large city would back him up.

So, not only is that question negatively biasing the survey, it is also dangerous to your privacy, or at least it could be somewhere down the road. I would always answer that question with a NO, even if the correct answer is a YES. The Government lies to us all the time, thus, it must be OK for us to follow their example, unless we are under oath. Read Judge Andrew Napolitano's new book, "Constitutional Chaos". He really hits hard. I was shocked at some of what has gone on that not too many people know about.
 
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obxned

New member
Isn't it strange that the anti-s only discovered these new 'statistics' after the Supremes ruling? They, and their data, are nothing but fly-encrusted bovine biscuits.
 

Yellowfin

New member
It's like sportscasters. They have several stacks of "facts" each that say one thing or another, so when they want to say something they pull stack A, B, or C, all which say different things, with absolutely zero ability to accurately predict anything, just the ability to say after the fact that they said so.
 

AZ Med18

New member
Remember that cops are more suicidal than firefighters. Because they have access to guns. So lets make all cops keep their firearms at work. Also cops cannot own any firearms.

In all seriousness how would this go over. It would be shot down in an instant.

It is true that cops kill themselves more than firefighters.

Statistics can say anything that you want them to say as long as you omit the harmful numbers.
 
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