Anthrax Vaccines

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Futo Inu

New member
Danger Dave. Sorry. LOL. :) :) :) You're right - I believe Bill Campbell is actually some species of gargoyle, not homo sapiens sapiens, so he probably has a natural immunity to anthrax anyway.

Rich, I too would like to know whether mere civilians at CDC get these vaccines. And I would trust a vaccine tested and administered by a private firm, not the gummit itself.
 

Daniel Watters

New member
Alan B. brought up a good point about quality control on the military's Anthrax vaccine. Wasn't there a major vaccine scare during the Ford Administration? As I vaguely remember it, the virus in at least one vaccine batch was not so weak/dead as they were supposed to be, and thus, individuals ended up contracting the disease from the vaccine itself. At least President Ford made the gesture of taking the vaccine himself to calm public fears.
 
I suppose that you guys also refused to take the MMR, DPT, Hepatitis B vaccines. Or will not be considering giving your kids the new chicken pox vaccine. And definatly will not be getting Lymerix, the new Lyme disease series.

This is not a political issue, it is a public health matter. You do not have the right to spread disease among the human population.
 

G-Freeman

New member
Thanks Dan, I have new respect for Ford on that news. Concerning quality control, we all have heard of seemingly overpriced toilet seats and other parts. I can understand these costs because they are often short term contracts to produce items made to strict specifications. A company must charge a lot to tool up and run a finite amount of parts. I assume the high specs are to produce the smallest margin of failure. When it comes to a fighting force it would seem to me that the most important element is human personell. To carelessly risk the most important element in national security with the lax quality control of a prophylactic would be criminal wouldn't it? Could the science be sound, yet reasonably classified? How do we know when a vaccine is effective? For example we knew polio vaccines worked when cases declined. Yet we didn't fear being doused by an enemy with polio. If wool handlers and vets have used the vaccine in large numbers, have incidents of infection declined? If so, can we be sure it was due to the vaccine or better genetic control and livestock hygeine.I hate junk science, but this issue has me buffaloed.
 

John

New member
One thing to consider is that not one of these people were drafted into the military. Each and every one of them knew the job was dangerous and would have unpleasent side effects. I didn't want all the shots, bumps and bruises I received while in the military but they just fell under the heading of tough sh**.
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
Gee, Rosco,

"You do not have the right to spread disease among the human population."

Do I have the right to tell the government not to put LSD into my veins - just to see what happens?

How about having GIs crouched within 1000 yards of ground zero of a nuclear test blast? Apparently to see how many died of radiation poisoning! Yes, I know that's argumentative. They said it was for "familiarization" purposes. Heh, heh! (wink! wink!)

How about using depleted uranium in weapons? After all, "The Captain says its safe." Do you remember, "There is no Gulf War illness!"

Yeah, and Agent Orange causes no illnesses and the quadruple rate of child deformities are "non-significant" when it's among GIs.

Assuming you believe I have SOME right over what goes into my body, would you care to explain where that right ends and government authority begins?

Oh, and while you're at it, please remember that some doctors working for our government consider private ownership of firearms to be a public health problem - obviously to be solved by our government superiors.

Um, if you want to consult Boss Hogg, that's all right. :D :D

As you may have gathered, when I am not serving in military indentured servitude I consider my body to be pretty much off limits to government grandstanding, experimentation, lies, and posturing.

Now. Your side of the story, please?
 

.

New member
pshaw...

Now we know why there are no "unions" allowed in the military! There'd be no one left to vote for the leadership, much less lead the votership... ;)
 

Alan B

New member
Rosco
In case you missed it they have stoped giving the Hepatitis B vaccine to new borns as it is contaminated with mercury. There are also reports of babies who die just after they get their Hep B shot. So much for FDA testing there. Also the only babies who need the Hep B vaccine are those whose mothers are at risk of Hep B (hookers and iv drug users mainly) about 10% of all new borns so why were they giving it all of them.

Rich
I believe that the last confirmed case of small pox was in 1972 some how 27 years doesn't seem long enough maybe 100 or more years would seem better for a disease that killed millions throughout history. Do you believe they should have stoped vacinating for it?

Who knows what despot some where in the world has a live virus squirled away for a "rainy day"

A far as the military using the troops as lab rats (as an ex troop) I say not without specific permission. Especially in this day and age when the VA looks for any excuse not to treat a vet.
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
Very cool! Guns and biology...I like it :)

Let's toss this into the mix:

Anthrax, a bacteria, in nature is contracted primarily by contact, less so by aspiration. A terrorist wants to infect as many as possible in the least amount of time with the highest level of infection. The delivery system with the highest efficiency of infection with pathogen is an airborne aerosol, readily aspirated into the lungs..taken into blood rich circulatory tissue

Right there you have "normal" anthrax even more deadly than normal. They don't use "normal" strains in biowarfare....they use lab raised, selected, highly virulent forms.
Combined with an aerosol delivery...thats a highly efficient killer. Keep in mind the virulence factor, by the time its known you are infected, it is highly likely its too late.....maybe a massive dose of antibiotic could kill the bug, but it (the bug) has had ample time to make its exotoxin (and this strain is bio-eng'rd for virulence) that circulated in you and has done its job regardless of the antibiotics.

Your best chance is a vaccination, even if not 100%. Think of flu shots...you need a new one each year cuz the flu virus is highly mutable.

Now, the real question is...why can't we buy it; or rather, why do they treat it like guns?....i.e. licenced, show cause, governmental ok

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
DC,
A little learning is a dangerous thing, and I know little more than you just
told us! So have a little patience, please.

1) I must have a flu shot each year because the flu virus is highly
mutable and each immunization is for a different strain of the flu virus.

2) Antibiotics are not effective against viruses, only against bacterial
infections, right?

3) Anthrax is a bacteria, so antibiotics normally would be effective, BUT
the anthrax modified for military use is so quick in its execution (pun
intended) that by the time it’s diagnosed it’s too late for treatment.
(Surely logistics also would be a problem if the number of victims is
large.)

4) Therefore, the key is immunization.

5) If my flu shot can immunize me against a flu virus, and an anthrax
immunization can immunize me against a bacteria, is it correct to say
that I can be immunized against both viruses and bacteria?

6) However, we can NOT immunize patients against ALL viruses (AIDS,
for example). Can we immunize for most bacteria? Are there common
bacteria against which we can NOT immunize?

7) Some immunizations use weakened germs which are still alive. Other
immunizations use dead germs which can NOT infect the patient.
(Correct?)

8) Does the anthrax immunization use live but weakened virus?

9) Is quality control an issue with anthrax immunization? If so, is it
POSSIBLE to contract anthrax from the immunization? If so, how LIKELY
is that frightening tragedy?

10) From our earlier discussions concerning the Centers for Disease
Control, we have seen a tendency for their fundings to affect their
findings - or at least their reporting of their findings. Therefore, my trust
in CDC has been shaken. (Remember CDC’s venture into gun control?)

11) We, in the military, have been lied to and misled repeatedly by our leaders - both military and civilian. Typically, such people consider their careers and political objectives more important than truth or the
well-being of military personnel.

Military investigations frequently support
pre-determined political objectives rather determine the truth. Cover-ups abound.

Having suffered the lies, cover-ups, and other shenanigans of our civilian and military leaders, the apprehensions of
the “cannon fodder” are not easily resolved by the familiar platitudes of previously confirmed liars and political BS artists.

12) No wonder many military personnel are afraid of the anthrax virus. Anthrax is deadly and we have no trust in our leaders or what comes down our chain of command.

13) So here’s the “biggie” for me, DC. How can we, as individuals,
determine the safety of the anthrax immunization when probable liars make up the numbers? (Remembering Agent Orange and Gulf War Syndrome.)

-------
To clarify, the lying leaders I refer to are at the highest levels of our government. I'm not slandering the officers out here with the troops in the mud, and the blood and the beer (per Johnny Cash).

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 13, 1999).]
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
Dennis...

2) Correct...antibiotics are used in this case when the virus has weakened you and you then get secondary bacterial infections...i.e flu->pneumonia
3) Yep
4)yep
5) yes
6) probably, possibly...but you likely have degrees of immunity to common bacteria just by being alive
7) correct...the immune system develops antibodies to the specific proteins of the bug....however proteins have a 3-D structure that may or may not be destroyed by heat treating (eggwhite for example)...hence you have vaccines with weakened instead of killed bugs
8) Don't know offhand...easy to search out on the Net
9) QC can be a problem with anything. Hence, it could be possible to contract it thru vaccination if the QC was bad....there was an incident in the 50's with a batch lot of polio vaccine.
10-13) That is a problem as it seems there is alot of fudging in military contracts of anything. The solution would be open disclosure and outside testing by reputable labs



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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
Thanks, DC!

What's simple common knowledge to you is frequently mysterious mumbo-jumbo to me. Appreciate the help.

Now, about Windows.... ;)
 
O

olazul

Guest
Hello all,

Mind if I jump in? First let me post two links. The first is a JAMA article composed of a very diverse panel which researched this very topic, it is both timely and informative.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v281n18/full/jst80027.html

The next is a DOD sight discussing anthrax as a biological weapon.
http://www.anthrax.osd.mil/

DC, as usual I think you're bang on!

Rich- The below explanation for gearing up to provide the vaccine seems plausible to me. Hopefully the vaccine will be available to the public soon.


Here is a partial reprint from the jama article discussing the vaccine:

"The US anthrax vaccine, an inactivated cell-free product, was licensed in 1970 and is produced by Bioport Corp, Lansing, Mich (formerly called the Michigan Biologic Products Institute). The vaccine is licensed to be given in a 6-dose series and has recently been mandated for all US military active- and reserve-duty personnel.51 The vaccine is made from the cell-free filtrate of a nonencapsulated attenuated strain of B anthracis.52 The principal antigen responsible for inducing immunity is the protective antigen.18, 23 A similar vaccine has been shown in 1 small placebo-controlled human trial to be efficacious against cutaneous anthrax.53 As of March 1, 1999,approximately 590,000 doses of anthrax vaccine have been administered to US Armed Forces (Gary Strawder, Department of
Defense, Falls Church, Va, oral communication, April 1999); no serious adverse events have been causally related (Miles Braun, Food and Drug Administration, Rockville, Md, written communication, April 1999). In a study of experimental monkeys, inoculation with this vaccine at 0 and 2 weeks was completely protective against an aerosol challenge at 8 and 38 weeks and 88% effective at 100 weeks.54
A human live attenuated vaccine is produced and used in countries of the former Soviet Union.55 In the Western world, live attenuated vaccines have been considered unsuitable for use in humans.55
Current vaccine supplies are limited and the US production capacity is modest. It will be years before increased production efforts can make available sufficient quantities of vaccine for civilian use.
However, even if vaccine were available, populationwide vaccination would not be recommended at this time, given the costs and logistics of a large-scale vaccination program and the unlikely occurrence of a bioterrorist attack in any given community. Vaccination of some essential service personnel should be considered if vaccine becomes available. Postexposure vaccination following a biological attack with anthrax would be recommended with antibiotic administration to protect against residual retained spores, if vaccine were available."

Dennis, how ya doin?

3) As has been previously stated airborne anthrax is odorless and invisible, therefore troops/civilians will only know they have been infected by having the symtoms. By the time you get symptoms you will die of the disease in the majority of cases, even with wild type or "natural" anthrax (airborne only). If someone goes to the expense of making this bad boy it will most likely be resistant to the PCN's and tetracyclines at least, making any slim chance of treatment even less likely.

6) Actually we cannot immunize for MOST bacteria (and viruses) at the moment.

8) Anthrax vaccine is a "dead" bacteria.

10-13) I think there are a few key differences here when compared with agent orange and gulf war syndrome. This vaccine has been around for awhile, In fact Louis Pastuer first used it. It has been used frequently in the civilian population for years. There is a significant amount of literature that has been published on its safety.

With all this said is it 100% safe? Probably not. Here we get into a risk/gain ratio like all of medicine. The risk to the soldier of not getting immunized is a clear, odorless substance that is nearly uniformly fatal if exposed. Its destructive potential is equivalent to a nuclear bomb. Soldiers will NOT be able to decomtaminate or suit up for the threat as they will most likely not even know they have been exposed. Several rogue countries have developed this weapon. We have military encounters with these countries.

This threat can be drastically minimized by simple immunization, with its (in all likelihood) small concomitant risk.

Alan-B,
The Hep B vaccine has proven itself very safe and has saved MANY lives as can be evidenced by 30,000 deaths/yr before and the 5000 deaths/year now. I believe what you are refering to is the few case studies that have accused the vaccine of causing MS. While this is not proven, and is currently being studied, a new vaccine has been released without the "possible" offending agent.

Best regards to all,

Olazul

One addendum- It is the aerosol form of the spore, not the gastrointestinal or skin infection, which is the most deadly. The aerosol form is very rare in nature, but the preferred form of biological weapons.


[This message has been edited by olazul (edited October 13, 1999).]
 
It appears that I was a less than clear in my views on this issue. For the record, I trust the citizen's ability to make an informed decision regarding their individual welfare. These vaccines should be available to all.
Rich
 

Mike Spight

New member
Dennis:

I've gotta point one thing out here...I don't think anybody ever told anyone that depleted uranium penetrators from MBT gun HVFSD sabot rounds or the 30mm stuff off Warthogs was harmless. I've known uranium was radioactive since I was in jr high. You get enough of it laying around/in the terrain, and their are potential health problems.

On the other hand, it is about the only thing we know of that will reliably penetrate modern MBT armor, especially when said armor has reactive armor installed all over MBT cupolas and front glacis.

I guess like most things in life it's a matter of choice...do we want to lose an engagement/battle/war, or have to deal with battlefield cleanup later.

Mike
 

Alan B

New member
olazul

guess you need to check on the Hep B vaccine again. I have a daughter all of get this 5 days old and she did not get the Hep B. I asked that she not be given it and the Dr. and nurse both told me that the local children’s hospital and requested that the Vaccinations stop at all the local hospitals and at present there is no time table for them to restart. BTW she did not have a jaundice problem as my son did after he had his vaccine (coincidence maybe)

As far as the Anthrax Vaccine we know that the Bioport Corp has quality problems. But we also have no idea what the maniacs in this word have been cooking in their labs that this current vaccine will or will not stop. Heck some bright bio terrorist might even be using this vaccine (since its been on the market so long) to develop a resistant strain. BTW Bioport’s president is a retired general interesting that they have this cozy contract to produce all this vaccine.

The information I have read suggests that the Anthrax vaccine was not adequately tested before introduction in 1970 and prior to the military's mass program was only used on vets and people who were most at risk of infection.(not a big group for sure) As far as JAMA and CDC both have become increasingly political and their research and in some cases their conclusions follow the governments official line(or who ever is paying the grant money). ie hand guns are a public health problems. I have several health care professionals in the family including a sister who is a family practice Doc. and she does not always trust these people. Last but not least there are a lot better bugs out there for Bio warfare than Anthrax. They are easier to produce, and a heack of alot easier to spread and it does not take a lot to create a really bad plague.

But this is just my lowly opinion
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
Olazul,
Wow! In the face of such overwhelming rebuttal, I would take the vaccine!

Mike,
I don't know what happened in the Gulf War. But two of my neighbors were there.

Both are sick. Both complain of problems concentrating, general malaise, unexplained tiredness and general "blah" (whatever THAT means).

Both have unexplained skin problems: rashes; areas of dried, flaky skin, dark or light colored irregular spots, etc.

I knew these guys before they left. They're different now; sluggish, less alert, slower at the range, etc.

In both cases, the military doctors tell them the skin problems are allergies (which neither ever experienced before). The mental problems are termed "emotional" and ignored.

Something's fishy and nobody seems to know what's wrong.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 13, 1999).]
 
Anytime you mix politics, lawyers, religion and medicine into the same pot it stinks. They are four seperate areas. Hep B vaccines are required for certain occupations, lifeguard, EMT, police officer, etc. An employer is within his or her rights to require employees to be vaccinated against certain harmful disseases, if that employer is the US Army, that does not change anything.
 

Mike Spight

New member
Dennis:

I agree something is fishy...anything coming from the mouth of our current govt (with few exceptions) is not to be trusted.

Sounds as if your buds may have been exposed to some type of agent.

I assume I was exposed to Agent Orange in RVN as I spent my year in the Mekong Delta region. De-foliation was a priority there. So far, no problems....

Mike
 
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