I'm curious how some of you who have served in the military feel about servicemen who are refusing these vaccines. Someone read a local letter to the editor to me this morning that suggested that the Commander in Chief should step up to the plate and take his to show how much confidence he had in its safety. Leadership? Please don't post anything that might get you in trouble if you are active duty.
Anthrax Vaccines
- Thread starter G-Freeman
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Mike Spight
New member
CG-Freeman:
Since I'm retired now, I'll tell you how I feel.
First, every leader in the chain of command, from the President--Sec Def--Chaiman JCS, through the various Service Secretaries and their respective Chiefs of Staff/Commandant of the Marine Corps should be first in line.
Follow that down through the chain to the team/section leader (E-5). Then the troops can get the shots.
At that point, if anyone refuses to take it, Court Martial their butt.
There is a lot of angst out there regarding this vaccination. I retired before it was mandatory, but have quite a few friends who have been innoculated for anthrax. I don't know of a single, verifiable instance where there has been any ill effect. The potential for a battlefield, bio attack with anthrax is quite real. As I understand it, it is one horrible way to check out of the net. The potential for use on frontline troops, log and commo nodes, APOEs and SPOEs is evident for all to see.
Mike
Since I'm retired now, I'll tell you how I feel.
First, every leader in the chain of command, from the President--Sec Def--Chaiman JCS, through the various Service Secretaries and their respective Chiefs of Staff/Commandant of the Marine Corps should be first in line.
Follow that down through the chain to the team/section leader (E-5). Then the troops can get the shots.
At that point, if anyone refuses to take it, Court Martial their butt.
There is a lot of angst out there regarding this vaccination. I retired before it was mandatory, but have quite a few friends who have been innoculated for anthrax. I don't know of a single, verifiable instance where there has been any ill effect. The potential for a battlefield, bio attack with anthrax is quite real. As I understand it, it is one horrible way to check out of the net. The potential for use on frontline troops, log and commo nodes, APOEs and SPOEs is evident for all to see.
Mike
Daniel Watters
New member
Ah, but you'd want to make certain that they actually received the vaccine and not a shot of saline.
With twenty years commissioned service as background, I absolutely agree with Mike Spite. Also, 4V50 Gary is correct; anthrax vaccine is not new. In fact, it has been successfully used by a variety of agricultural workers, vets, etc. for decades. Given this, I wonder why a little education and leadership down the "chain of command" wouldn't resolve almost all of this issue?
Paul Revere
New member
Anthrax? C'mon. The vaccine itself is a derivative of Anthrax. I do not believe that the Secretary of Defense or any other executive level member of the Clinton administration actually took an injection of the vaccine. Whatever was injected into them was for a photo op only.
Some religions disagree with any type of vaccination. Some soldiers obey their religions. Some soldiers just don't want anything injected into their bodies, especially vaccines derived from dangerous agents such as Anthrax.
I agree with any individual who decides what he should or shouldn't inject into his body. If a soldier elects to pass on the vaccine, so be it. Move on to the next injectee. Court marshals should be reserved for those that betray the flag, the Constitution, or dishonor their Country, not those that elect to pass on a vaccination.
Some religions disagree with any type of vaccination. Some soldiers obey their religions. Some soldiers just don't want anything injected into their bodies, especially vaccines derived from dangerous agents such as Anthrax.
I agree with any individual who decides what he should or shouldn't inject into his body. If a soldier elects to pass on the vaccine, so be it. Move on to the next injectee. Court marshals should be reserved for those that betray the flag, the Constitution, or dishonor their Country, not those that elect to pass on a vaccination.
After watching Nightline's week-long anthrax terrorist scenario, I want the vaccine myself - seems well worth the small risks of side-effects, especially if you live in a big city with a subway which is a likely target for one of these attacks, which BTW Koppel points out the experts agree it WILL happen, it's just a matter of when. Yet another reason to live here in the heartland rather than a big city. Actually, if the terrorists were able to take out most of a liberal cesspool such as NYC or San Fran, I'd be delighted. Or Atlanta, if I thought that f-stain Bill Campbell himself actually rode the subway (is there even a subway in Atlanta?).
[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited October 12, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited October 12, 1999).]
Paul...
All vaccinations are derivatives of the disease they protect against...flu, smallpox,polio, TB, diptheria, etc.
Vaccinations are not anti-biotic....they stimulate the endogenous immune system to recognize and hence produce anti-bodies against the particular disease, and its based upon protein/DNA/RNA sequence recognition.
In a nutshell....it is necessary to provide some derivative of the microbe/virus in order to make an effective vaccine, or it won't work.
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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
All vaccinations are derivatives of the disease they protect against...flu, smallpox,polio, TB, diptheria, etc.
Vaccinations are not anti-biotic....they stimulate the endogenous immune system to recognize and hence produce anti-bodies against the particular disease, and its based upon protein/DNA/RNA sequence recognition.
In a nutshell....it is necessary to provide some derivative of the microbe/virus in order to make an effective vaccine, or it won't work.
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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
Rich Lucibella
Staff
I have a different take on this subject. Why can't US citizens get the vaccine, if we choose (or that for smallpox)?
US citizens may not have these vaccines unless they can prove they're working with the infectious agents in a lab. Can't get 'em even if you're willing to pay for 'em. So, if some rogue nation has stockpiled anthrax and our military is innoculated, where do you think they'd be most tempted to use it? On the battle field or in the US pop centers?
Rich
US citizens may not have these vaccines unless they can prove they're working with the infectious agents in a lab. Can't get 'em even if you're willing to pay for 'em. So, if some rogue nation has stockpiled anthrax and our military is innoculated, where do you think they'd be most tempted to use it? On the battle field or in the US pop centers?
Rich
Mike Spight
New member
Paul Revere:
We never said they did...only said they should.
Mike
We never said they did...only said they should.
Mike
Mike Spight
New member
Rich:
Good point on hitting inoculated troops vs. the unprotected population in the heartland of the nation.
Intent, fortunately, doesn't always lash up with capability. That's probably the only thing that's going our way right now.
Mike
Good point on hitting inoculated troops vs. the unprotected population in the heartland of the nation.
Intent, fortunately, doesn't always lash up with capability. That's probably the only thing that's going our way right now.
Mike
Paul Revere
New member
Rich brings up a very good point. It's interesting that the Clinton administration had something to say about the continued importation and sale of military items to civilians (like gask masks for example). They won't allow the vaccine to be domestically distributed and now they don't want us to have gas masks. Kind of says something, without really saying it.
I'd probably pass on any vaccine issued by any government agency. Just because I'm a suspicious kinda guy.
Eventhough the plot of "Rainbow Six" is fictional, I think there was an intelligent plan (albeit sinister) to distribute a deadly agent to the populace...making them "think" they were receiving a vaccine to prevent exposure to an agent. That is the kind of story that inflames my suspicion about any kind of vaccine that we are told we "have" to take.
I'd probably pass on any vaccine issued by any government agency. Just because I'm a suspicious kinda guy.
Eventhough the plot of "Rainbow Six" is fictional, I think there was an intelligent plan (albeit sinister) to distribute a deadly agent to the populace...making them "think" they were receiving a vaccine to prevent exposure to an agent. That is the kind of story that inflames my suspicion about any kind of vaccine that we are told we "have" to take.
I have been following Captain Joyce Rileys battle against these anthrax shots. If i was still in the military,and especially after the bad effects of shots on Gulf War Vets, I sure would refuse them.It seems the word is spreading on these shots. Besides, from what i hear, any supposed enemy will be able to counter act these shots. I just cant see trusting the leadership of our country today. Klinton, Cohen, and Albright just seem to be the personafication of evil. My philosophy is to believe the complete oposite of everything these "leaders" tell the masses.I am not along in this rergard. Do the research on this anthrax subject. Congress haas been informed. But will it do any good?
Danger Dave
New member
Umm, Futo, I'm in Atlanta right now, about a block from a MARTA station (not a subway, but an above-ground train system), and two blocks from City Hall. I would mind very much if someone dumped anthrax on me, especially if I'm not allowed to get a vaccine against it. Heck, I don't like it when the pigeons crap on my car, you can keep that anthrax away from me, thank you very much. Trust me, people like Campbell would be the ones to survive, not the people who live in the suburbs and just work here.
As far as the vaccine goes, if I thought there was a chance I'd be exposed to anthrax, I'd be running to get it! Call me strange, but the risk of dying a horrible death far outweighs the risks of the shot. To me, refusing the vaccine would make as much sense as refusing to wear a flak vest & kevlar helmet. After all, wearing all that kevlar may make you overheat in the sun...
As far as the vaccine goes, if I thought there was a chance I'd be exposed to anthrax, I'd be running to get it! Call me strange, but the risk of dying a horrible death far outweighs the risks of the shot. To me, refusing the vaccine would make as much sense as refusing to wear a flak vest & kevlar helmet. After all, wearing all that kevlar may make you overheat in the sun...
Rich Lucibella
Staff
And so, we find ourselves in a bit of a conundrum here. Seems if our elected criminals force US Citizens (the Military) to get a vaccine, there's clearly something sinister afoot. OTOH, if our hired criminals refuse the vaccine to other US Citizens, that definitely indicates there's something sinister afoot.
I shall ponder this for some time.
Rich
I shall ponder this for some time.
Rich
Okay hold on a minute....I am a senior Enlisted in the Navy, Senior Chief Petty Officer (E-8) I had my doubts about the vaccination in the beginning as well. After looking into it I discovered it had been around for over 30 years, it is given quite regularly to Vetrinarians and common laborers who handle large amounts of wool in it's raw form, ( Anthrax is also called wool sorters disease)
The reason why everyone MUST take it and it is not a voluntary thing is because IF you end up in that environment those that didn't take the vaccine would get overwhelmed and those that did would be tending to them rendering whatever force you sent in ineffective. I would rather have that kid say thank you for making him/her take it, than have to explain to his parents that he died because he listened to the media hype. I have had my entire series and now I have to have my annual boosters 6 shots so far with # 7 coming up. No ill effects, so stinging and burning at first but nothing after that. My yellow fever shot and my Typhoid/tetnus shot caused more side effects than that one did! Don't believe the Sound Bites you are hearing, it is more media hype than anything. My Commanding Officer was the first in line, he says in order to be a GOOD leader you must Lead from the front, I wholeheartedly agree. It is been over 2 years since I started my series and I have yet to suffer any ill effects. As for the general populas?? well I know that the military was having difficulty getting enough vaccines for all of their personnel due to a shortage. So I do not know that there is enough for everyone at the moment.....Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.
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...“ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” --Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.
..."The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." --Thomas Jefferson
... "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure." Albert Einstein
... "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction."Ronald Reagan
Take care and God Bless, El Jefe
The reason why everyone MUST take it and it is not a voluntary thing is because IF you end up in that environment those that didn't take the vaccine would get overwhelmed and those that did would be tending to them rendering whatever force you sent in ineffective. I would rather have that kid say thank you for making him/her take it, than have to explain to his parents that he died because he listened to the media hype. I have had my entire series and now I have to have my annual boosters 6 shots so far with # 7 coming up. No ill effects, so stinging and burning at first but nothing after that. My yellow fever shot and my Typhoid/tetnus shot caused more side effects than that one did! Don't believe the Sound Bites you are hearing, it is more media hype than anything. My Commanding Officer was the first in line, he says in order to be a GOOD leader you must Lead from the front, I wholeheartedly agree. It is been over 2 years since I started my series and I have yet to suffer any ill effects. As for the general populas?? well I know that the military was having difficulty getting enough vaccines for all of their personnel due to a shortage. So I do not know that there is enough for everyone at the moment.....Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.
------------------
...“ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” --Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.
..."The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." --Thomas Jefferson
... "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure." Albert Einstein
... "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction."Ronald Reagan
Take care and God Bless, El Jefe
Ok lets get a few facts straight. Anthrax is lethal but it is not as contagious as small pox (which they don't give shots for any more). Anthrax is treatable by antibiotics and small pox isn't. Anthrax spores live in a narrow range of environmental conditions i.e. Temp and humidity. Last but this is probably the most important. The company that manufactures the vaccine for the military is not the same one that manufactures for the civilian market. The military contractor’s quality control is noted to be terrible. There are wild fluctuations in their quality from batch to batch. It should also be pointed out, if what I read about this vaccine is true, It was not adequately tested when it was introduced 20 or 30 years ago and there is no proof to date that it works
frontline did a show on bio warefare with anthrax...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plague/
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>During the process of production in the Soviet Union's program,
how many tons of biological warfare agents were storehoused?
The Soviet Union has two main directorates responsible for developing and
manufacturing biological weapons. Biological weapons were stored at the
Minister of Defense facilities. For example, [the] Kirov facility was
responsible for storing Plague, about 20 tons of Plague. The Zagorsk
facility (now it's Sergiev Posad) was responsible for storing smallpox
biological weapons, about 20 tons as well. And the Ekaterinburg facility (at
that time Sverdlovsk) was responsible for continuous manufacturing [of]
anthrax biological weapons. The amount of this weapon produced was
hundreds of tons.[/quote]
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plague/interviews/alibekov.html
dZ
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plague/
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>During the process of production in the Soviet Union's program,
how many tons of biological warfare agents were storehoused?
The Soviet Union has two main directorates responsible for developing and
manufacturing biological weapons. Biological weapons were stored at the
Minister of Defense facilities. For example, [the] Kirov facility was
responsible for storing Plague, about 20 tons of Plague. The Zagorsk
facility (now it's Sergiev Posad) was responsible for storing smallpox
biological weapons, about 20 tons as well. And the Ekaterinburg facility (at
that time Sverdlovsk) was responsible for continuous manufacturing [of]
anthrax biological weapons. The amount of this weapon produced was
hundreds of tons.[/quote]
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plague/interviews/alibekov.html
dZ
Paul Revere
New member
Injecting a vaccine is nothing akin to wearing a flak jacket. The flak jacket can be removed by the wearer at his discretion, the injection cannot be removed or taken back. Our troops are trained in chem/bio warfare and have the equipment necessary to prevent/de-con exposures, without the necessity of an unknown and untested vaccine.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
What Alan said. However, a note of embellishment:
They don't give smallpox vaccine anymore because it was "eradicated" from the planet in the 1970's. I know a bit about this, as I was receiving my Masters in Public Health from the university that controlled the program at the time.
Obviously, it ain't quite gone, as it exists in refrigerated vaults from Atlanta's CDC to Kirov's biowarfare plant. Since it is no a Public Health Risk, you may not obtain vaccination, even with a Doctor's prescription, except by permission of CDC....which is never granted to the US public. Unfortunately, it ain't the 70's anymore and some of our greatest bio-threats are from terrorism, not natural epidemiology. You still can't get the vaccine, even if you're willing to pay for it.
An interesting question that I've had for some time:
"Does CDC routinely immunize its foreign public health workers against anthrax and/or smallpox". The answer to this question would be of some value.
Rich
They don't give smallpox vaccine anymore because it was "eradicated" from the planet in the 1970's. I know a bit about this, as I was receiving my Masters in Public Health from the university that controlled the program at the time.
Obviously, it ain't quite gone, as it exists in refrigerated vaults from Atlanta's CDC to Kirov's biowarfare plant. Since it is no a Public Health Risk, you may not obtain vaccination, even with a Doctor's prescription, except by permission of CDC....which is never granted to the US public. Unfortunately, it ain't the 70's anymore and some of our greatest bio-threats are from terrorism, not natural epidemiology. You still can't get the vaccine, even if you're willing to pay for it.
An interesting question that I've had for some time:
"Does CDC routinely immunize its foreign public health workers against anthrax and/or smallpox". The answer to this question would be of some value.
Rich
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