Antelope/Coyote Rifle?

azsixshooter

New member
I shot my friend's .243 and it was nice, but if I'm buying a .223 then I want the next rifle in my collection to be a little more of a step-up in power than a .243. I think a 25-06 will fit the bill. A buddy of mine has one and he wants to shoot my .17 HMR so I'll get him to bring his 25-06 out for me to try this week.

If a .243 offered more options for hand-loading than a 25-06 I would probably give it more serious consideration, but it sounds like the 25-06 is a really fun cartridge to reload for and I have heard nothing but the opposite in regards to .243.
 

azsixshooter

New member
I was looking at getting a Remington 700 CDL, but I realized that Remington is forcing infernal locks on us now. They will not see 1 damn cent of my hard-earned money ever again. I'm glad I have a pre-wart 870 at least. I guess I could find a used pre-lock 700, but I don't like buying used guns when I can avoid it, unless I'm buying it from someone I know and respect.

I will look into the 264 Win Mag, though, thanks for the heads-up.
 

jsr76

Moderator
Go with the 25-06. I have a good one and it is the best I have used, and I've used enough of them. Cartridges that is. 75-120 grain bullets of all types of construction make it the champ for everything from woodchucks to something bigger than a whitetail because I've never seen any of the ones I've shot even take a step. The .257 Roberts is weaker and is obsolete, the .257 Weatherby is a little faster, but much more expensive to use. It is the speed champ though. The 25-06 reaches better than any of the usual varmint calibers at very long range, and yet with the heavy bullet loads, gives the .270 win. all it wants and then some on power, all with better reach. Don't believe all you hear about catolog ballistics. Everyone shortchanges the 25-06 from the factory. Use Lee collett dies and handload sleek bullets ahead of magnum powders like RL-22 and you WILL need a darn good magnum to even think of outreaching it. If you need some reloading info or tips on this cartridge, give me a private message.
 

shooter_john

New member
I LOVE my 25-06. I have everything from 87gr's to 117gr's on hand, and my rifle (Savage 10FP) is 1/4"-1/2" MOA with the Hornady 117gr SPBT's when I'm on my game. I can't tell you how mine is on critters since I didn't really get to hunt this year, but I have utmost faith in it when the time come!
 

azsixshooter

New member
Maybe I'll pick up a Savage 11G in .223 next week and if I like it I can get a 25-06 in their 111GCNS in time for Antelope season (if I get drawn). I'll have to do some research here regarding the accu-trigger, but it seems that most of the reviews I've noticed on it were favorable. I was thinking to get a CZ 527 in .223, but I don't like how the magazine sticks out and I would prefer to buy from an American company.
 

SuperTodd

New member
my special run cdl does not have a lock

I was shocked about that, and it is one of the special run cdl's in 264. I made a friend jealous his rem 7-08 he bought last year has the lock mech.
 

tulsamal

New member
If I was going to try hunting something like antelopes at very long range, I would pay attention to what the competition people use. It at least gives you a good idea about what cartridges give the necessary accuracy. Some of the rifles that get picked as "Gun of the Week" obviously have no connection with hunting but some of them do.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweekarchive.html

For instance, the .270 was recommended by some people. I've got one. It was my Dad's rifle. I can get acceptable accuracy for deer hunting with it but never anything really great. But maybe it is the cartridge? Have you ever seen a long range competition rifle in .270 Win? Or a sniper rifle in .270 Win? Maybe there just aren't the same level of bullets made for the caliber. Or maybe it is something about the cartridge design.

I have to admit I feel pretty much the same about 25-06 and .264 WM. They have the velocity but I just don't see super accuracy out of them. I'm sure somebody somewhere has one to "prove me wrong" but we're talking averages here. The average 25-06 just doesn't seem to be a half MOA rifle!

Very long range hunting has some things in common with long range competition. Wind drift matters, for instance. And very long range shots are usually just a single shot. If you fire a shot at an antelope at 600 yards and miss, you aren't going to be working the bolt and firing again! So a single shot rifle that is super accurate is better than a repeater that is less accurate.

Ever since I saw the new Savage rifle they made for F Class rifle competition, I've wanted to buy one. And the caliber would be the perfect balance of velocity and accuracy. It would be perfect for long range hunting of antelope or coyotes.

http://www.gunblast.com/Savage-12F.htm

I personally consider the AR-15 the perfect coyote rifle but on my property no shot is ever over 200 yards. And sometimes there are several of them and I want a chance to get more than one! I'm not collecting pelts; I'm killing vermin that kill some of my chickens and ducks.


Gregg
 

Jimro

New member
For instance, the .270 was recommended by some people. I've got one. It was my Dad's rifle. I can get acceptable accuracy for deer hunting with it but never anything really great. But maybe it is the cartridge? Have you ever seen a long range competition rifle in .270 Win? Or a sniper rifle in .270 Win? Maybe there just aren't the same level of bullets made for the caliber. Or maybe it is something about the cartridge design.

I have to admit I feel pretty much the same about 25-06 and .264 WM. They have the velocity but I just don't see super accuracy out of them. I'm sure somebody somewhere has one to "prove me wrong" but we're talking averages here. The average 25-06 just doesn't seem to be a half MOA rifle!

Long range competition rifles usually run in service calibers, magnums, or wildcats. The 270 is neither of these.

Sniper rifles are once again usually in service calibers, the notable exception is the 7mm Rem Mag (Secret Service) and 300 Win Mag (m24 variant).

But for a second let's look at what makes an accurate rifle, either for competition or tactical use. Start off with a heavy free floated barrel with a recessed target crown, add in a stiff synthetic stock with pillar beds and weight added to the buttstock, and eventually you end up with a rifle that weighs in excess of 10lbs and most over 15lbs. That is your "average" long range or "sniper" rifle. Match grade ammo (boat tail hollow point) is available but illegal for hunting in most states.

Your average 270 has a sporter weight barrel with a rounded crown that is in a hunting style stock, and if you are lucky it isn't an injected molded plastic. It weighs between 6.5 and 8 lbs. Match grade ammo isn't available because the 270 isn't a service rifle round or standard sniping round. But what is available is a large range of commercial ammo and reloading components that will provide a hunter with the opportunity to find the most accurate load for his rifle. Dave Petzal has a 270 that he just couldn't get to shoot any bullet accurately until he got some 140 grain 7mm bullets swaged down to 270 bore, and bam, sub moa (he says when he runs out of his current stash of bullets he'll retire the rifle).

Kleingunther, an old custom rifle company, guaranteed all their rifles to shoot sub moa with appropriate handloads. The one I read about from 1980 in 25-06 needed about five loadups before the magic load was found. Not a heavy barreled rifle either, just a long skinny sporter weight tube.

Now, if you decide to go the custom route and have a heavy match grade barrel put on an action there is nothing that is going to stop you getting sub moa accuracy from nearly ANY round out there.

Most hunting style 308's aren't particularly accurate with hunting loads, but they get the job done. The idea of "inherent accuracy" is valid, but the cartrige is only half of the equation. A lot of things have to work to get great accuracy.

Jimro
 

cole k

New member
Quote: tulsamal
For instance, the .270 was recommended by some people. I've got one. It was my Dad's rifle. I can get acceptable accuracy for deer hunting with it but never anything really great. But maybe it is the cartridge? Have you ever seen a long range competition rifle in .270 Win? Or a sniper rifle in .270 Win? Maybe there just aren't the same level of bullets made for the caliber. Or maybe it is something about the cartridge design.

I have to admit I feel pretty much the same about 25-06 and .264 WM. They have the velocity but I just don't see super accuracy out of them. I'm sure somebody somewhere has one to "prove me wrong" but we're talking averages here. The average 25-06 just doesn't seem to be a half MOA rifle!


Tulsamal, I have two .270 Wins I bought well used, and both are sub-MAO rifles w/factory ammo and ½”-MOA w/good handloads. This was all with 130 gr bullets. One is Browning A-Bolt and the other is an older FN.

I also have a Ruger M77 .25-06 that out of the box w/120 gr factory premium ammo 1.5” groups and w/100 gr factory premium ammo 1.25” groups. With handloads this rifle shots MOA or a little less. With a trigger job it should do about a 1/2” at a 100 yards.
 

jsr76

Moderator
My opinion is that any caliber or cartridge is capable of world class accuracy. This is more a function of the hardware. If it is built right, it will shoot, regardless of caliber. The stories are endless and so are the cartridge options, if the rig is built right. The 25-06 as well as the rest of the quarter bore family seem to be quite accurate and/or easy to get great results out of. Mine is much better than 1/2" accurate, but it is a varmint style rig. Inherent accuracy as far as cartridges go, has less to do with it than hardware, although some such as the ppc family surely must have advantages.
 

Charshooter

New member
I would look at it this way: a 260 Rem, is great if you hand load, because the factory loads are few offerings. The 270 is able to do the job well, but if you are shooting nothing larger than antelope, then a 25-06 is just as good. I would also think a 243 is good, but if you are hunting antelope as I have in the past, I would rather have a 270 or a 25-06.
 

azsixshooter

New member
Tomorrow is the deadline to put in for Elk/Antelope here in AZ. I hate putting things off until the last minute, but I had to wait for a check to show up and I just got it in the bank today. So I'll be putting in for Archery Elk and General Antelope tomorrow.

I'm planning to pick up a Savage 11G in .223 this weekend for Coyote hunting and then if I end up liking the Savage I will probably get their 111GCNS in .25-06 before Antelope season (if I get drawn). I'm planning to buy some reloading equipment to reload for .357 Mag, .223 and .25-06 by the summer so I'll have time to research, learn and find some good handloads for Antelope and possibly Cougar. I've read of plenty of guys using .223's for Cougar, would anyone suggest the .25-06 being better for Cougar than a .223? Also, how about thoughts on hunting Rocky Mountain Bighorns with a .25-06?

Sorry, this thread has gone from Antelope/Coyote gun to "Antelope/Cougar gun and Coyote/Cougar gun". But I'm appreciative for all the advice from everyone here and I believe that if I still did want one gun for both Antelope and Coyote I would probably go with a .22-250 if I found it to be legal for Antelope here in AZ. If I didn't care as much about the pelts then I'd probably change that to .243 Win. but I've heard a lot of bad things about reloading for those. Not sure about reloading the .22-250, but a good ole cowboy I know out here who has a lot of experience taking both Antelope and Coyotes told me that's what he'd suggest for that kind of dual-purpose rifle. And since I know him firsthand and have hunted with him and seen him shoot, I hold his opinion in high-regard.

Thanks again, good luck to everyone else in AZ with the Elk/Antelope draw!
 

KCB

New member
For both I would go in this order: 22-250, 243, 223, then....25.06 or 270. The 25-06 or 270 will cut a coyote in half with most loads. I shot dogs with my .270 growing up because it was all I had larger than a .22. I tried FMJ's and Brass tips which are a bit better than sp or hp of course, but I still spent a lot of time sewing huge holes/rips in pelts.
 

Zak Smith

New member
Long-range competitors in NRA games tend to use service rifle cartridges.. unless they're competing in Match Rifle or F-Class. 6XC dominates the former, and calibers like 6.5-284 dominate the latter.

In the non-NRA games, such as long-range "hunting", "practical", or "sniper" matches, there has been an exodus away from the 308 and big .30 caliber magnums, towards, you guessed it, 6.5-284, 7RM, .260REM, 6.5-08AI, 6.5x47 Lapua, 6.5 Creedmoor, etc. In other words, cartridges that have a wide selection of bullets with a BC higher than 0.60, launched at a moderate to fast velocity (2800 - 3000 fps), which provide dramatically less recoil while giving the same long-range trajectory performance. The ones at moderate velocity also enjoy long barrel life.

-z
 

jsr76

Moderator
I have been wanting to try a .260 Remington. However there aren't many models out there. I know it will work for sure. However I doubt it would be as dramatic a killer as the 25-06. On the other hand you can load nearly same sized bullets at nearly the same speed, plus use heavier bullets than come in .25 cal. so it might be the ultimate shell. Seems like I've had this idea for awhile. Maybe I'll get one and compare head to head. It will have to perform something fierce to beat out the 25-06 in my eyes. The 25-06 is a stellar round. Anyone who hasn't seen the light, hasn't seen a good rifle chambered for it. They work awesome, and believe me, I have had experience with shells that are called magnums but the medium sized 25-06 is better then any of them if the game is caribou on down. Bigger than that, sling more lead if you feel the need. This is only my opinion and I wouldn't expect everyone to feel the same way. I just like to play with guns so I'd like to have one of each anyway.
 
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