Another bump in the night question: Ammo Capacity Vs Caliber

[F. Guffey]

The last bump in the night came when I was out of town, my wife and her big dog heard the same sound, she went down the hall ,nothing, she went across the den, nothing, she went through the kitchen, again nothing, and I will remind you, she took her big dog, no gun and for that I am thankful, then she opened the dining room door, reached around and turned on the light and there it was, something only she could see, I am so glad I was not there, DARTH VADER!!! against a white wall, she, as would be expected, was horrified, until she noticed her big dog, ready but for what, she did not know. I called the next day, she claimed I never told her about DARTH, I suggested her big dog was listening because he knew it was there.

The conversation started with “DARTH VADER” knowing something went very badly I said “I told you about DARTH VADER”! and she said, “NOT a problem, he is now a sailor cat” Long story that goes all the way back to being poor, so I begged her to retrieve him and avoid eye contact until I got home. And now? he stands between a wall and a triple dresser.

F. Guffey

 

[K1500]

Since no one has stated the obvious, buy a Glock 20 in 10mm and get both!

 

[tet4]

shotgun is a way way more effective weapon. Anyway you look at it, its way more effective.

I personally came to the conclusion that a shotgun was actually a pretty bad choice for me. I have a small child and if something were to happen, my first responsibility is to find her and get her to safety. That means probably picking her up. I honestly can't fire a shotgun properly with a child in my arms. I don't think anyone on this board can either.

Hence I have revolvers because I may not have another hand to clear a misfire and chances are that I won't be wearing a belt either.

Is that a bad choice?

I don't know. (Actually, I know that it's a good choice). However, someone asked if anyone ever needed more than a few rounds in a home invasion. If you read Lessons from Armed America, one of the stories is about an ex-boyfriend stalker that breaks in, and I believe there may have been a reload or two before it all finished, and I think that he was using a hi-cap pistol to begin with.

So, instead of pitting two arbitrary things together, I would suggest looking at the entire picture, and actually trying out the scenarios to see where things may fail. You might come to the conclusion, that, for your situation, it may be best to keep two 45s at the ready instead of 1 hi cap 9mm. Nothing wrong with that - you just have to come up with the right solution for your situation.

 

[rem44m]

A shotgun.

Plus racking a good pump shotgun will most likely be so effective by the time you get the breached area of the house there will be a thief size hole through the wall

So you might want to pick up some spackle with your buck shot

 

[C0untZer0]

I am pondering which handgun to take in case of a "bump" in the night I want to investigate.

I guess this gets into house clearing, and generally speaking, house clearing is not recomended. If you have a big dog that might be different, but in generally trying to clear your house is a bad idea as has been talked about in other threads.

Everyone's house is different, If someone is going to clear their house and it necesitates going around corners and through dorways then maybe a shotgun is not the best tool to do that with although some people who are really good with a shotgun, and know shotgun retention techniques well will argue that they can go around tight corners and through doorways in such a way that bad guys are not going to be able to disarm them.


I have three kids. If there were a shootout in my home I would worry about the BG rounds going into their bedroom. I wonder about going to their room first and trying to put them into a safer area, but I also worry about the BG kicking in their door while I'm trying to do that - I would be at a disadvantage because I would have a kid in my arms where as the other alternative is for me to place myself in the hall between invaders and the kid's room.

If I am between their room and the home invaders, I want to be using something that has the highest likelyhood of completely stopping them - given that I hit the target (them). So whether it is a #1 Buck out of a shotgun, 10mm, .45 +P or a 44magnum - I want the first pull of the trigger to have maximum effect and I would choose that over having additional rounds.

 

[output]

Can anyone give an example of a homeowner needing more rounds than the gun held in a break-in?

I am not aware of such an example off the top of my head to be honest. If we are only looking at statistics it would seem as if you have a sound argument. At least at first glance.

Have you ever encountered a situation where a homeowner defended his/her home unsuccessfully because their magazine(s) capacity were too high? I have not. Having more rounds (at least in my mind) means that I will ultimately have more options. Note: I am not saying you can substitute training and proper mindset with extra bullets.

There have been many document home invasions where innocent citizens have been killed (in their own home) because their homes were mistakenly hit/invaded instead of a drug house or meth lab. Homes are mistakenly invaded all the time and more often than not there are multiple assailants/attackers.

Having extra ammunition is not a bad idea IMO. I have never been much for arguing caliber but as Rob Leatham has said “I either want big, or a lot of.” I like a lot of You are going to have to go with what makes you feel the most comfortable based on your own level of training though.

 

[nate45]

I would argue that the simple act of cycling the shotgun open and closed again (without any effort to be quiet) will clear a home of intruders without ever resorting to squeezing the trigger. It is first line of defense in our home.

If you want noise to be your first line of home defense get a dog, or an alarm.

The myth of the racking shotgun slide being an effective tactic was dispelled many moons ago. It is well known to be tactically unsound. The chamber of your defensive shotgun should be loaded.

Birdshot is not recommended for defense, it severely under penetrates.

Lets review, Birdshot good for defense? = no, Racking the shotgun to scare intruders? = no.

 

[kinggabby]

In my place a shotgun would be nice for hunting ( if I hunted ) or just target practice. Because I have a almost 3 yr old special needs child that likes to climb out of bed and makes noise and and is just a Tasmanian Devil so to speak. I would be afraid of the shot spreading out and striking her in the process of shooting at a BG. So I would rather use my revolver or my semi since I would have more control of where the bullet is going.

 

[MLeake]

JerryM, one example that leaps to mind immediately... Byrd Billings, near Pensacola, Florida.

Billings didn't have a gun, so it's not a perfect analogy. However, let's say for argument's sake he had a S&W 66. His house was hit by a half-dozen armed, masked gunmen.

Whether any gun would have been enough is questionable. However, if he had been able to mount a defense, he probably would have needed more than six rounds.

Make the weapon an M&P with 17+1... might be enough rounds, but what if the shooter has a stoppage? A spare magazine is good, when one is clearing stoppages.

Just because the average event doesn't require more than a cylinder doesn't mean that every event will not.

 

[Colvin]

9mm +P JHPs are potent enough, I think. People don't realize that, if f untrained, combat is extremely difficult and that their fine motoring skills are all but gone. Capacity > caliber.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I believe Chris Bird writes of an incident in one of his books where a lady ran an ongoing gun battle through her garden with a 12ga double and multiple intruders (due to vegetation, she apparently thought she was only firing at one guy who kept moving and kept in the fight through multiple reloads and was successful).

 

[C0untZer0]

The story you are referencing is about Barbara Thompson in Fort Worth, TX.


Chris's daughters live in Illinois, and one lives in Chicago.

His bio at Privateer Publications says "He is particularly incensed that Katy who lives in Chicago is unable to own a handgun legally for protection."

He must have been happy when the Supreme Court over turned Chicago's gun ban.

But he can still be incensed that his daughters are unable to carry handguns legally for protection.

 

[3kgt2nv]

I personally would choose caliber. my bump gun is a 1911 that i have shot over 25000 rounds thru in every type of excersize and competition i can think off so that if it does become necessary to shoot i can do it from any angle or postion without having to first assume the correct stance and use two hands for control.

i can fire right or left handed with both eyes open with muscle memory putting the gun on target within seconds of raising the gun from a hoster even faster if already drawn.

where we cannot practice shoot at people we can practice shooting moving objects and doing so accurately and consistantly is not easy. if your not willing to practice this type of shooting (idpa or other leagues) capacity is useless as your hit percentage will be dismal at best when adrenalin and stress are factored in.

think of police shootings where 15 or 30 rounds are fired and they only score one or three hits.

If your going to put your life on the line to defend yourself and family you should have enough dedication to properly train yourself for that moment when it is necessary.

I have shot many different formats and with many different style firearms. Its all about ability to hit what your shooting at when you pull the trigger.

perfect example is people that get the 20+ dollar ultra high end hollow points for home defense or carry but only practice with the cheapest stuff they can buy. how do you know how that high end stuff shoots and how it responds if you dont practice with it.

 

[MLeake]

Sounds good, but how often have you shot after somebody has severely startled you; or after you've been struck, stabbed, or shot; or after your heart rate is severely elevated?

There are some variables that are hard to train for.

Here's one I'd like to do:

Start with dummy guns, and a fit training partner. Physically grapple for weapon control. Do this several times, until breathing is really ragged. Some physical pain might even be good.

Now go to the bench, pick up live weapons, and immediately put a timed double tap on target.

 

[3kgt2nv]

true but in a bump in the night situation hopefully you are not waking up to the intruder being right on top of you.

personally I have 2 full size dobermans 1 is 98 pounds the other 92 pounds that are normally quiet. one bark in the night has me out of bed and alert. the way my home is layed out my family is secure on the floor above mine so unless they are in the house its more of a controlling the situation and at worst stopping the intrusion.

now in a grappling situation it is true that it might turn out that you loose the firearm and or become injured in the struggle or surprised before you have the ability to arm yourself. this is where the strategy of sweeping the house becomes dangerous. once you venture from a position of safety you give up the security of knowing what is in your immediate surrounding.

this is the best tactical accessory for my house that i have ever had.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Amateurs think equipment,
Students think techniques,
Experts think tactics.

This is an important and basic truth. It's sometimes phrased: mindset, skill set; toolset, in that order.

We have a way of looking at things as a hardware matter. After all, equipment and tools are fun. But a lot of things really come down to a matter of software.

Pretty much any quality, reliable gun, in a caliber of consequence and that you can manage, will do the job if you practice and train so that you know how to do the job. No type of gun will make up for not knowing how to do the job.

As Jeff Cooper used to say, "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully."

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

Any caliber that arts with a '4' or more is better. After you get the gun, get some quality training with it.

 

[3kgt2nv]

Any caliber that arts with a '4' or more is better. After you get the gun, get some quality training with it.

so by this i should discount
9mm, 9mm+p 9mm p++
38special, 38 special+p
.357
.357 sig
22 microjet
etc etc etc

any gun can be used defensively if you know proper use and the limitations of the caliber.

 

[MLeake]

3kgt2nv, whether you end up actually grappling a BG isn't my point. My point is that you are assuming that under a full adrenaline dump, you will perform like you do at the range.

My point is that inducing such an adrenaline dump immediately prior to shooting might be an eye opener for many people.

And, frankly, some aggressive weapon retention training is not a bad way to get some adrenaline flowing.

 

[3kgt2nv]

3kgt2nv, whether you end up actually grappling a BG isn't my point. My point is that you are assuming that under a full adrenaline dump, you will perform like you do at the range.

My point is that inducing such an adrenaline dump immediately prior to shooting might be an eye opener for many people.

And, frankly, some aggressive weapon retention training is not a bad way to get some adrenaline flowing.

I understand what you were talking about with the adrenalin and I also am aware that there is a large percentage of the gun owning world that if they got the drop on the "bad guy" would rather have them get out of their house via quickest way or police vs pulling the trigger.

well it is true you can never train for everything you can train as much as possible so that if it does come time to use your gun you dont have to think about firing it and on muscle memory and training will be able to do so.

take a fencing class and tell me how much time you have to think with the adrenalin going. you dont you react based on how you were trained and your skill. same with a firearm.

But yes adrenalin can cause a wide variety of reactions, fear, panic, the fight or flight response, shakes, tunnel vision, etc.