Another Banning Smoking Thread.

Blackhawk

New member
Everyone is harmed to some degree. pax is harmed to a greater degree than most and I am sure there are more than 30 people in the country that have severe reactions to second hand smoke.
That's true, but how many people are harmed by other disgusting, but legal, activities that go on every day?

Fortunately IMO, laws are slow to come about, and they need to be, one way or another, popular with the public or respect for the law wanes, which is like a cancer in the body of the republic.

I'm fortunate that I'm not overtly messed up by smoke. If I was, I never would have survived the military or the other workplaces I spent years in. Likewise, I thought nothing of smokers in cars, restaurants, stores, and all kinds of other places. Now I can go for days without even seeing anybody smoking much less smelling it or being bothered by it, AND now I notice. Things have changed for the better for people like pax. They're infinitely better compared to just a few decades ago.

Smoking used to be socially acceptable, but now it's not. People who smoke are met with disdain and dirty looks. Non-smokers comment behind their backs how seedy and dirty it makes them appear. Smoking carries a stigma as it gets more and more demonized in our society. Society's message is "if you smoke, you're stupid."

I have a lot of compassion for those who can't quit even though I've never been addicted to anything in my life except eating, breathing, and sleeping. As for those who like to smoke, I have neither sympathy nor compassion because it DOES harm everybody else and it costs me money as a taxpayer.

An old Virginia Slims advertising campaign slogan was "You've come a long way, Baby" hawking cigarettes to women. Smokers have come a long way in not bothering me in particular with the overt smells and discomfort from their habit, but I'm afraid the situation's now at the point that it would have to be banned outright to get any more incremental improvement for pax and those similarly affected, and this country simply is not going to do that while tobacco growing is subsidized. That's the political pragmatism that nualle talked about.
 

Monkeyleg

New member
Pax, Pendragon, Nualle: thanks for a polite yet lively debate. We've been able to move it from the discussion of smoking (yawn) to other areas that present the possibilities of even more broad areas of agreement or disagreement.

Blackhawk: thanks for chiming in. I just wish you'd been in the Dem debates in 2000. You would have whupped Algore's behind.

Tomorrow brings the serious last-minute Christmas stuff, so I don't know if I'll have time to log on to TFL.

Whatever our differences, I hope that all of you have a great Christmas, free of annoyances. (I have two-- two!--certifiably insane sisters-in-law, so count your blessings ;) ).

And, if someone should try to pull hairs from your head, or force-feed you peanut oil, just email me. I'll go blow smoke in his face.

We are truly blessed to be able to argue over relatively minor matters when compared to the rest of the world, and to do so over servers, ISP's and digital connections that most on this earth cannot afford.

God bless each and every one of you, and God bless America.
 

HntnFsh

New member
Whoooeeee..
I just read every post and every page.That was(is) a great thread.Great arguments on both sides.
Seems like 20 years ago,every one I knew smoked(including
me).Now,I can't think of one friend that smokes.No,their not
all dead.:)

HntnFsh
 

Pendragon

New member
Same to you Monkeyleg.

You guys have a great Christmas or [insert alternative holiday here]. ;)

Nothin like a friendly arguement to just keep me coming back. This has been a great thread.
 

pax

New member
Thanks, Monkeyleg and all.

I've really enjoyed this thread.

pax

God bless us, every one. -- "Tiny Tim" in A Christmas Carol, by Charles Dickens
 

nualle

New member
Blackhawk said:
Surely you don't even KNOW anybody who labors under the Pollyanna type illusion that the law is concerned with ethics beyond a scintilla or two...?
You're quite right but I wish you weren't. IMO, a lot of people's disdain for the law is precisely its distance from real ethics. The law has been taken over by statists... people who seek control either by creating crime where there is no harm or by preventing redress for the harm that they do. Of course people are disgusted.

The only thing we can do, then, is agitate to get rid of the bad laws and put some good ones on the books. This is a case-by-case endeavor (pun unintended). Each time the people succeed at this, we're a little freer.

Thanks, folks, for a rollicking good debate! Happy Solstice and New Year to y'all!
 

Torquemada

New member
If and when I am the boss, smoking will not be allowed at all on company property. Most, if not all the smokers I have worked with (a guy I work with now is an exception) take an inordinate amount of "quick smoke breaks". Then they come back smelling like smoke - which smells bad. Would you want to work next to a guy who never showered? Same thing to me.

An interesting point, this. Most places I've worked, the non-smokers complain that smokers are always taking breaks while they slave away nonstop - but DOL says that all employees are entitled to "15 minutes per 4 hrs worked" breaks. That they choose not to break is on the non-smokers (they also tended to work through lunch and take work home with them, yet never got any more done than I...statistically insignificant, but interesting nontheless).

I would also do my best to not hire smokers.

Fine by me if I can choose to only hire smokers and have a mandatory-smoking environment - but that would be discriminatory towards non-smokers, wouldn't it?

It would make the group health policy much cheaper. Smokers as a group take more days off, etc.
Parents take more days off and leave early more often for child-related things. Single people are useless on Mondays from partying all weekend. Single parents are obviously the worst combination :D

Smokers pay higher premiums (risk-adjusted) than non-smokers. Smokers pay (in my case) city, county, state and Federal taxes on cigarettes. That insurance companies and governments do not spend that money wisely is not my fault (i.e. smoking settlement money spent on everything except smoking prevention and Medicare/Medicaid?!?).
 

Torquemada

New member
Bold changes mine...

Knocking people of different ethnicity used to be socially acceptable, but now it's not. People who are of different ethnicity are met with disdain and dirty looks. Non-ethnics comment behind their backs how seedy and dirty they appear. Ethnicity carries a stigma as it gets more and more demonized in our society. Society's message is "if you're ethnic, you're stupid."

or

Drug use used to be socially unacceptable, but now it's not. People who used certain drugs were met with disdain and dirty looks. Non-drug users used to comment behind their backs how seedy and dirty it makes them appear. Drug use carried a stigma as it was more and more demonized in our society. Society's message was "if you use certain drugs, you're stupid."

or

Firearms used to be socially acceptable, but now it's not. People who use firearms are met with disdain and dirty looks. Non-firearms owners comment behind their backs how seedy and dirty it makes them appear. Firearms carry a stigma as it gets more and more demonized in our society. Society's message is "if you have firearms, you're stupid."

Funny how high-risk OTHER behaviors, strictly voluntary, have become acceptable over time. Smoking and firearms, OTOH, have not. This is progress?

If you think this is off-topic or apples/oranges, consider this:
You may (depending on locality, politics, etc.) have the right to own a firearm. You may even have the right to use it in self-defense. You do NOT have the right to contaminate the "air we all breathe and water we all drink" with lead and old mercuric primers.

By some of the logic presented here, all firearms owners are to be held legally liable if someone gets lead poisoning or a birth defect caused by mercury and lead, if the air or water is contaminated. Discharging the gun was strictly voluntary, after all. Doesn't matter if it was from a range or someone hunting or target shooting on their own land...every pull of the trigger causes pollution... and 100% of the population is susceptible to lead poisoning.

Or does this conflict with something you hold dear? NIMBY? Apples-and-orangutans? I'm sorry, it IS the same thing.
 

Santino

New member
I agree with your comments Torquemada.......I think this whole debate comes down to one thing and one thing only.............

It seems that certain people want to live in a world with 100 %guarantees..........so that if someone get's harmed by the actions of another they will get financial justice......SOUNDS GREAT!...I want to live in that kind of world too!

Problem is.......We are becoming a society of victims..........some of the Anti smokers and I were banging heads earlier in this thread and I don't think there is an analogy in the world that will change there views on this subject.

It was asked to one TFL'er before whether or not they react to other things in the same way they react to cigarette smoke and they said it was entirely irrelevant .......I dissagree....I think that it is extremely relevant.......If it is possible for a person to become violently ill or suffer fatal injury because of cigarette smoke out doors do you all think that person should be hospitalized for their own good?

There are cities in the US where the air quality is so bad that certain people could not live there for a variety of reasons.
Some people live by the sea because the salt water helps their condition .....Some choose to live in vegas or arizona for the dry air but who would CHOOSE to live next to a chemical facility?...Ever been down the Jersey turnpike?....Elizebeth N.J. is almost unbareable.

Are coal burning powere plants neccesary?,Diesel fueled buses and trucks?.... is it SOMEBODYS voluntary action to proffit from these air polluting devices? Just for arguments sake can anyone really compare the amount of toxins and annoying smells put in the air by big corporations too cigarette smoke?...C'mon ....it's obvious we have begun to turn on each other because we all know we don't have a chance in hell of changing the real problem............"PROGRESS".....if you want to call it that......Big buissenes rules and we enjoy the benifits of it ...air conditioning,computers,electricity,plumbing and heat and so many other things,Well these things make bad smells somewhere along the line and these things also kill SOME people.These things ARE voluntary actions,it is just more difficult to point the finger on who exactly is responsible for the mess ....Are we all a bit to blame?........ The world STINKS......literally...... let's face it

I will ask those that support banning out door smoking to change sides for a momment and try to think of some other things that MAY harm a select few that you would not support the banning of.

Any way it seems that some people want to BLAME AND BAN someone or something for their personal problems.

I think it's CHICKEN SH*** but that's just my opinion and I think it might allready be to late.....MORE LAWSUITS WILL FOLLOW



:(
 

Blackhawk

New member
I don't think there is an analogy in the world that will change there views on this subject.
How about flu, colds, and other contagious respiratory diseases?

Bet there's not a person in the country who hasn't come down with one and yet trudged on infecting anybody and everybody nearby BEFORE becoming symptomatic. Even when they do, they continue sneezing, wheezing, and breathing their aerosolized pernicious microbes all around.

Not dangerous, they might say? Look up influenza as one of the major killers, then look up how the common cold makes you more susceptible to influenza.

Bet your primary debate opponent sneezes, wheezes, and breathes out her bugs for everybody to share just like everybody else, and I'll bet she's not willing to pay for the deadly and near-deadly consequences that can cause others to suffer....

I'd much rather encounter a smoker than a sneezer.
 

Santino

New member
Blackhawk ........The response you will get is predictable.

..........You don't choose to have the flu.....bla bla bla.......
 

pax

New member
Torquemada,
By some of the logic presented here, all firearms owners are to be held legally liable if someone gets lead poisoning or a birth defect caused by mercury and lead, if the air or water is contaminated. Discharging the gun was strictly voluntary, after all. Doesn't matter if it was from a range or someone hunting or target shooting on their own land...every pull of the trigger causes pollution... and 100% of the population is susceptible to lead poisoning.
Look, I never said all smokers should pay for the actions of one or a few.

I said, if your specific, overt behaviour causes another specific person actual (not theoretical) harm, you should pay restititution.

This is not analogous to all shooters paying for nebulous or non-existent 'damage' to nebulous 'others' who may or may not have actually been damaged.

It is analogous to a single hunter paying restitution when his negligence causes one of his bullets to perforate another human being -- one that didn't 'need shooting,' as they say.

Knocking down straw men might be enjoyable, but it isn't really helpful.

Blackhawk,

Thought you were done.

Nobody chooses to come down with a cold. And a sneeze is not a deliberate act. Smoking is. Smoking is not a reflex, and it is a choice.

pax

Being right can be a very lonely place to be. -- Jean Kerr
 

Blackhawk

New member
Nobody chooses to come down with a cold.
Or the flu, or any other of a myriad of infectious respiratory diseases.

But they DO choose to go out in public with their diseases, to take Contac or other symptom masking medications, and then to go to work, to stores, to get in elevators, to walk among strangers, wantonly touching doors, elevator buttons, and all manner of other surfaces innocent strangers will surely touch as well thus getting a load of their colony of microbes.

They go to restaurants and handle the salad bar implements, the condiment containers, and all kinds of other objects strangers will subsequently handle.

They get on airplanes, sit in restaurants and theaters, and all manner of public places sniffing and occassionally dabbing their not quite dry noses with their hands or an already contaminated tissue and stifling a cough or sneeze now and then because the best of the Contac medications can't mask all of the symptoms, and these vile, disgusting spreaders of disease and death to the unwary and weak just want to be part of society, to enjoy with their friends the pleasures of life and work.

They do all this all the while KNOWING that they are contagious and with wanton disregard of the harm that can befall strangers who will be infected. What's worse is that they do this all while their own bodies are screaming "I'm sick and I want to be home in bed!"

If you have NEVER in your WHOLE life done any of these things, your desire to have smokers be legally obligated to take financial responsibility for emitting a noxious cloud of visible smoke that may harm somebody else may at least be able to pass the clean hands test. Otherwise....
 

Monkeyleg

New member
I thought I could stay away from TFL for a couple of days. If this place isn't addictive--especially at Christmas time--I don't know what is. (There's worse things than TFL addiction, believe me).

Pax, can I just get a simple answer to a simple question that I asked a couple of days ago? If that's possible, then we can move this discussion from the frankly boring issue of smoking to much broader issues and maybe get a handle on what we as a society are under obligation to do.

The question, again, is how far should the 90+% of the public (who do not have serious affects from various substances) go to accomodate the small minority who do? This is not just about smoking. It's about people who have reactions to fragrances, food additives, plants, pets, fabrics, plastics, dust, mold, metals (my wife is allergic to nickel, among a gazillion other things), feathers, noise, and a host of other substances that are just too inumberable to list here.

Some people have mild reactions and deal with it just fine.

Others have severe reactions (such as you experience), and those irritants run the gamut of the short list of substances I mentioned above, and then some.

Do we restrict or legislate against or hold legally liable those persons who publicly hold just one of these substances if just one person has a severe reaction to it? Can we establish intent under the law for those who cause the reactions? Is intent necessary, or can we just say that the "irritator" was just there, and therefore is liable, whether or not there was intent?

Given the lawsuits against the tobacco companies, gun manufacturers, and the unfolding suits against fast food chains, car companies, and the hue and cry over the exemptions granted by the Bush administration to pharmaceutical companies who will distribute smallpox virus shots to the public, I don't think my question is unreasonable.

Where do we draw the line?

Once again, happy holidays to everyone. (I thought I'd stay away from TFL until Thursday, but the withdrawal is too intense). ;)
 

pax

New member
Blackhawk,

First off, we do have health laws which prohibit a person who has typhoid, for instance, from working in a restaurant. We have laws which prohibit a person with AIDS from deliberately engaging in sex with an uninformed person. We have laws which prohibit anyone with an infectuous disease of the skin from entering a public swimming pool or hot tub.

I hope you are beginning to see a common thread in these laws, but I will spell it out for you: In every case, these laws prohibit specific actions which may harm others in a public setting. They do not prohibit diseased persons from merely entering public, nor from being there. They prohibit certain deliberate, overt actions.

Okay, that said. In the case of the common cold, you're most contagious before you experience any symptoms. So a law which banned you from merely being in public while sick, would not accomplish the goal of preventing harm to others, and would instead trample on the rights of even ill persons to merely be in public places.

I may be in public places, regardless of my physical condition. And so may you. But the instant one of us performs an action which harms another person, we have stepped over the line.

And this segues nicely into Monkeyleg's post:
Pax, can I just get a simple answer to a simple question that I asked a couple of days ago?
I've answered it several times now.
The question, again, is how far should the 90+% of the public (who do not have serious affects from various substances) go to accomodate the small minority who do?
As I have said repeatedly, I am not asking that anyone go anywhere or do anything. I am not asking that anyone, in any sense, go out of their way to avoid harming me and others like me.

I am asking that you refrain from going out of your way to do others harm.

The question itself belies an underlying attitude that it is up to the non-actor to make way for the actor, for the one who wishes merely to be in public, to accomodate the one who wishes to do in public. This is not only backwards, but wrong.

Smokers insist upon performing an overt, discrete, actual, concrete, act of the will in public. This act of the will has the potential to harm others. Smokers are not willing to have their habit banned in public, despite the precedents we have for banning acts which harm others, and despite the precedents we have for banning actions in public which merely make others uncomfortable.

I still believe that smokers should be able to smoke wherever they like in public; with the caveat that if their actions harm another person, that person should have some recourse.

But smokers want to have their cake, and eat it too. They insist upon the right to harm others by their overt actions, which they undertake by choice, and insist that they should be free from the consequences thereof if they harm another.

Blackhawk and Monkeyleg, I really am done now. Hope you have a merry Christmas, Blessed Solstice, great New Year, wonderful Kwanzaa, happy Hanukah, and a wonderful life. :)

pax

To think is to differ. -- Clarence Darrow
 

Blackhawk

New member
In the case of the common cold, you're most contagious before you experience any symptoms. So a law which banned you from merely being in public while sick, would not accomplish the goal of preventing harm to others, and would instead trample on the rights of even ill persons to merely be in public places.
I still believe that smokers should be able to smoke wherever they like in public; with the caveat that if their actions harm another person, that person should have some recourse.
See the discrepancy in your logic?

You want others to pay for your having a reaction from what they do. IOW, you want standing to sue for damages in case you walk into tobacco tainted air and have an asthma attack and for the law to consider that a tort.

OTOH, you don't seem to want that law to apply in favor of somebody who comes down with a cold because you KNOWINGLY went out in public and contaminated them with YOUR cold.

It's not true that you're most contagious before symptoms appear. You're just "mostly" over a common cold before symptoms appear. However, they're spread mostly by the overt symptoms. Until all the unsuppressed symptoms except residual sinus congestion disappear, you're contagious, Contac or not.
 

pax

New member
Blackhawk,

BEING in public is not an action.

SMOKING in public is an action.

pax

There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you please unless it causes others harm. With it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences. -- P.J. O'Rourke
 
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