Another Banning Smoking Thread.
- Thread starter Jeeper
- Start date
The only thing that I don't like about people smoking outside (or in their cars) is that they tend to litter. Many don't consider cigatette butts as trash.
Same category as folks that blow their leaves in the street: "It isn't garbage, but I don't want it in my yard". It suggests an arrogance.
Same category as folks that blow their leaves in the street: "It isn't garbage, but I don't want it in my yard". It suggests an arrogance.
Open air spaces? Well, those same folks pay taxes just like you and I. Actually, they pay more because they're taxed out the wazoo because it's a politically correct tax.
As long as you're not throwing your butts on the ground (covered by littering statutes), you're ok. Why? Because you're outside. The argument that "I'm trapped in a building with smokers" doesn't play well when it comes to the great outdoors. Or maybe yet another new argument will be invented.
As long as you're not throwing your butts on the ground (covered by littering statutes), you're ok. Why? Because you're outside. The argument that "I'm trapped in a building with smokers" doesn't play well when it comes to the great outdoors. Or maybe yet another new argument will be invented.
Memo to TFL smokers: strip your cigs and put the butts back into the cigarette pack.
No, I'm not kidding. I started doing this years ago after visiting some of the great national parks. Europeans, who are avid smokers, seemed to think nothing of tossing their butts on the ground. I found it irritating.
No, your shirt won't start on fire (unless you don't know how to flick the lit ash off and pinch the end of the cig). And, yes, it will make you smell like a pack of butts until you find a suitable spot to dump them.
This is no different than picking up your range trash. It's just common courtesy.
No, I'm not kidding. I started doing this years ago after visiting some of the great national parks. Europeans, who are avid smokers, seemed to think nothing of tossing their butts on the ground. I found it irritating.
No, your shirt won't start on fire (unless you don't know how to flick the lit ash off and pinch the end of the cig). And, yes, it will make you smell like a pack of butts until you find a suitable spot to dump them.
This is no different than picking up your range trash. It's just common courtesy.
A postscript to the idea of a Great Outdoors ban.
Some time back I had the distinct displeasure to spend an evening in Jackson Hole, WY, a town that I'm sure was once populated by real people. After paying the motel clerk ("Accomodations Advisor") four times what I'd ordinarily pay for a tiny room with no air and two TV stations, I called my wife, washed the motorcycle, washed my leathers, then headed off to find a meal.
After the sun set, the temps outside had dropped to the mid-fifties. There was a trendy looking restaurant but, of course, there's no smoking in Jackson Hole restaurants. There were, however, tables outside. And, given the temps, there were no people sitting outside. So, I zipped up my jacket, ordered a meal, then lit up.
The waitress ("Culinary Advisor") came outside immediately.
"You can't smoke out here," she said rather sternly. I looked around, and couldn't see any living creature for at least 50 yards, save for the horse who was dumping two days worth of grass at the curb not thirty feet from me. (Please tell me this isn't where tofu comes from). My appetite wasn't what it was a few minutes prior.
Anyway, I pointed out this irony to my Culinary Advisor, who insisted that "laws are laws." I in turn pointed out that money is money, I'd paid for my meal and I'd take it back to my motel. In a styrofoam container, thank you. (Robert Redford: kiss my skinny white butt).
So, what was gained and lost? The restaurant lost some additional money from me ordering drinks and dessert. The waitress--er, Culinary Advisor--lost her tip. I lost a chance to eat someplace besides my motel room.
What was gained? You tell me.
Some time back I had the distinct displeasure to spend an evening in Jackson Hole, WY, a town that I'm sure was once populated by real people. After paying the motel clerk ("Accomodations Advisor") four times what I'd ordinarily pay for a tiny room with no air and two TV stations, I called my wife, washed the motorcycle, washed my leathers, then headed off to find a meal.
After the sun set, the temps outside had dropped to the mid-fifties. There was a trendy looking restaurant but, of course, there's no smoking in Jackson Hole restaurants. There were, however, tables outside. And, given the temps, there were no people sitting outside. So, I zipped up my jacket, ordered a meal, then lit up.
The waitress ("Culinary Advisor") came outside immediately.
"You can't smoke out here," she said rather sternly. I looked around, and couldn't see any living creature for at least 50 yards, save for the horse who was dumping two days worth of grass at the curb not thirty feet from me. (Please tell me this isn't where tofu comes from). My appetite wasn't what it was a few minutes prior.
Anyway, I pointed out this irony to my Culinary Advisor, who insisted that "laws are laws." I in turn pointed out that money is money, I'd paid for my meal and I'd take it back to my motel. In a styrofoam container, thank you. (Robert Redford: kiss my skinny white butt).
So, what was gained and lost? The restaurant lost some additional money from me ordering drinks and dessert. The waitress--er, Culinary Advisor--lost her tip. I lost a chance to eat someplace besides my motel room.
What was gained? You tell me.
I say I have a right to breathe in public places.
You say you have a right to smoke in public places.
I can prove I have a right to breathe.
Can you prove you have a right to smoke? Can you prove you have a right to smoke in public?
Can you prove you have a right to take away my right to breathe?
I don't think you can.
I think it boils down to, "but I like to smoke! And it would be inconvenient to play with my butt at home instead of in public!"
pax
He who trims himself to suit everyone will soon whittle himself away. -- Raymond Hull
You say you have a right to smoke in public places.
I can prove I have a right to breathe.
Can you prove you have a right to smoke? Can you prove you have a right to smoke in public?
Can you prove you have a right to take away my right to breathe?
I don't think you can.
I think it boils down to, "but I like to smoke! And it would be inconvenient to play with my butt at home instead of in public!"
pax
He who trims himself to suit everyone will soon whittle himself away. -- Raymond Hull
Mike Irwin
Staff
Yes, my one small ****ing cigarette makes the air unbreathable across a 4-state region.
I take great delight in asphyxiating babies and small children from 500 meters with the millions of pounds of carbon monoxide and other toxic waste that I exhale with every breath.
I revel in watching squirrels and birds fall from the sky, instantly riddled with lung cancer when touching the solid wall of noxious pollutants.
If I can't cause at least 10 fatal high-speed car crashes with the billowing clouds of coal-black smoke I emit, it's been a bad day.
Yes, my one cigarette ****s up the entire outdoors for everyone.
After all, we all know that the current research indicates that if one person lights up a Pall Mall in North America, a butterfly in China becomes a nicotine addict.
Gimmie a break.
Indoors, I'd agree with you. Outdoors? In public? It's called outdoors for a reason.
I take great delight in asphyxiating babies and small children from 500 meters with the millions of pounds of carbon monoxide and other toxic waste that I exhale with every breath.
I revel in watching squirrels and birds fall from the sky, instantly riddled with lung cancer when touching the solid wall of noxious pollutants.
If I can't cause at least 10 fatal high-speed car crashes with the billowing clouds of coal-black smoke I emit, it's been a bad day.
Yes, my one cigarette ****s up the entire outdoors for everyone.
After all, we all know that the current research indicates that if one person lights up a Pall Mall in North America, a butterfly in China becomes a nicotine addict.
Gimmie a break.
Indoors, I'd agree with you. Outdoors? In public? It's called outdoors for a reason.
Mike,
Great rant, but it didn't answer my question.
Can you prove that you have a right to smoke in public places? And that your right to smoke in public, somehow trumps my right to breathe in public?
Btw, regarding "outdoors" and "making the air unbreathable across a four-state region," see my story at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=698881&#post698881
pax
Great rant, but it didn't answer my question.
Can you prove that you have a right to smoke in public places? And that your right to smoke in public, somehow trumps my right to breathe in public?
Btw, regarding "outdoors" and "making the air unbreathable across a four-state region," see my story at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=698881&#post698881
pax
Exactly.
Pax, why don't you just come out and say it: "You shouldn't be able to smoke anywhere that I might want to go." That's about the gist of your position. Private restaurant or bar? You shouldn't smoke there because "I have a right to breathe". Outdoors, with millions of cubic feet of air around you? Can't smoke there, "Right to breathe" . House where a tax assessor with smoke allergies might visit? Guess you can't smoke there, either. The assesor just might stop by and get a wiff of smoke, and he has a right to breathe.
No, nobody can just say "Those people on that park bench are smoking and I don't like cigarrette smoke - I'll just go to this other park bench." It's now "How dare they smoke in public! I have a right to sit at the very same park bench while they're sitting there, too! They shouldn't be allowed to contaminate 1/100,000 of this public park with smoke!" (hope nobody's cooking out at your public parks either - imagine all that smoke and opressive smells - smells that travel even further than cigarrette smoke!)
Geez, next thing you know sweaty people won't be allowed in public, because we all have a right not to smell someone else's sweat.
BTW, pax, I have have bad allergies to certain plants. Should I have to power to force the government not to grow those plants on any public property that I might visit (which includes ALL public property)? They make it difficult to breathe, and if I'm driving by, I could go into a sneezing fit and become distracted while I'm driving.
Bastiat,
Okay. I'm just going to come right out and say it: you shouldn't be allowed to smoke, anywhere that I might want to breathe.
Can you prove to me that you have a right to smoke?
Can you prove to me that you have a right to smoke in public?
Can you prove to me that you have a right to take away my right to breathe?
Two takers, so far. One with a rant, the other with an accusation, which I've happily plastered onto my forehead. Neither with a valid argument. Others?
pax
Disclaimer: If anyone disagrees with anything I say, I am quite prepared to not only retract it, but also to deny under oath I ever said it. -- T. Lehrer
Okay. I'm just going to come right out and say it: you shouldn't be allowed to smoke, anywhere that I might want to breathe.
Can you prove to me that you have a right to smoke?
Can you prove to me that you have a right to smoke in public?
Can you prove to me that you have a right to take away my right to breathe?
Two takers, so far. One with a rant, the other with an accusation, which I've happily plastered onto my forehead. Neither with a valid argument. Others?
pax
Disclaimer: If anyone disagrees with anything I say, I am quite prepared to not only retract it, but also to deny under oath I ever said it. -- T. Lehrer
Stetson_CO
New member
I believe I have the right of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness", as I sit here, smoking my cigarette(cigar/pipe) I am pursuing happiness.
If I were to be sitting on a park bench, in public, pursuing happiness with my cigarette...and you were to walk by and complain, I would point out that just a tiny bit further down the path is a place where I am not persuing happiness.
I will however put it out if you were at the bench first, or requested nicely for me to stop smoking near you.
Its the whole attitude thing...If you wanna be loud and complain(which happens to me alot), Im gonna be a jerk. If you say please, I will put it out until later.
c):{
PS - I field strip my smokes when done and put them in a baggie I keep just for that. Or use the ashtray conveniently provided in my truck.
If I were to be sitting on a park bench, in public, pursuing happiness with my cigarette...and you were to walk by and complain, I would point out that just a tiny bit further down the path is a place where I am not persuing happiness.
I will however put it out if you were at the bench first, or requested nicely for me to stop smoking near you.
Its the whole attitude thing...If you wanna be loud and complain(which happens to me alot), Im gonna be a jerk. If you say please, I will put it out until later.
c):{
PS - I field strip my smokes when done and put them in a baggie I keep just for that. Or use the ashtray conveniently provided in my truck.
No, it is a valid argument. But what you are saying by claiming this all-encompassing 'right to breathe', is that you someday, sometime, may be somewhere that someone else might be smoking, that all smoking must be banned from that place. Does that about sum it up?
Just a tad over-reaching, no?
Forget politeness. Forget respecting other peoples rights to do as they please as long as they don't harm you (and remember, you're talking Public parks - which are outdoors and usually quite large.)
So in this vast, outdoor space, you can't be bothered to, say, move 20 feet over. Or pick another spot. Or just do something else. No, instead of doing that, THEY must do what YOU want them to do. Sitting at a different bench is way too inconvenient for you (If I was an anti-smoker, I'd make a 'sitting at the back of the bus' comparison in an effort to build support).
Instead of just getting along with everyone else, a quaint system that has worked for the past 200 years or so, we must now involve to government to make people stop doing what we don't like. My rights good, your rights bad. Oh wait - my rights don't exist because of your right to breathe. I guess I can't smoke in that empty public park because someday you just might want to visit there - and if you do, you have the right to breathe there!
I used to be very much anti-smoking, and I've still never once smoked, but militant anti-smokers who eroded other peoples rights while making up new ones of their own turned me to the other side. My message to the anti-smoking forces out there: Keep it up. Your constant war on other people's freedom is getting people off the fence and onto the side that stands up for individual rights. (except for the right to breathe - we're all against that.)
Remember kids - government intrusion is good when they're on your side!
Just a tad over-reaching, no?
Forget politeness. Forget respecting other peoples rights to do as they please as long as they don't harm you (and remember, you're talking Public parks - which are outdoors and usually quite large.)
So in this vast, outdoor space, you can't be bothered to, say, move 20 feet over. Or pick another spot. Or just do something else. No, instead of doing that, THEY must do what YOU want them to do. Sitting at a different bench is way too inconvenient for you (If I was an anti-smoker, I'd make a 'sitting at the back of the bus' comparison in an effort to build support).
Instead of just getting along with everyone else, a quaint system that has worked for the past 200 years or so, we must now involve to government to make people stop doing what we don't like. My rights good, your rights bad. Oh wait - my rights don't exist because of your right to breathe. I guess I can't smoke in that empty public park because someday you just might want to visit there - and if you do, you have the right to breathe there!
I used to be very much anti-smoking, and I've still never once smoked, but militant anti-smokers who eroded other peoples rights while making up new ones of their own turned me to the other side. My message to the anti-smoking forces out there: Keep it up. Your constant war on other people's freedom is getting people off the fence and onto the side that stands up for individual rights. (except for the right to breathe - we're all against that.)
Remember kids - government intrusion is good when they're on your side!
BTW, pax, would it be reasonable for me to ask polticians to ban all plants that I'm allergic to from public parks? After all, I have the right to breathe, and those plants interfere with it.
Would you support that ban and my 'right to breathe'? Yes or no?
If yes, then after that, I'll ask for bans in and around bars, restaurants, office buildings, and stores. Imagine going out to eat and spending the whole night sneezing and having trouble breathing because some crazy business owner thinks they have the right to plant whatever tree they want next to their business.
How about this one? Support it? Yes or no?
Would you support that ban and my 'right to breathe'? Yes or no?
If yes, then after that, I'll ask for bans in and around bars, restaurants, office buildings, and stores. Imagine going out to eat and spending the whole night sneezing and having trouble breathing because some crazy business owner thinks they have the right to plant whatever tree they want next to their business.
How about this one? Support it? Yes or no?
I'm sure it doesn't bear mentioning that one car is going to spew out more pollutants in a day than any one smoker will in a lifetime; yet I see less support for banning cars than I do for banning tobacco.
And I don't need to "prove" my right to smoke. YOU need to disprove it.
DJ
And I don't need to "prove" my right to smoke. YOU need to disprove it.
DJ
I did a lot of research on this subject at my last job.
The company put the smoking area in the courtyard that was just outside my door. I had to wade through the smoke constantly as I was always coming and going to work on computers. Often I had people sitting on a bench on the other side of the door to my office and I felt I was smoking right along with them.
Anyway, if you do your research, you will find that common law recognizes that everyone has the right to breathe clean air, and nobody has the right to stink it up.
I use the word stink because my primary objection to smoking is based on the smell.
Anyway, this is a good outline http://medicolegal.tripod.com/pureaircases.htm
The company put the smoking area in the courtyard that was just outside my door. I had to wade through the smoke constantly as I was always coming and going to work on computers. Often I had people sitting on a bench on the other side of the door to my office and I felt I was smoking right along with them.
Anyway, if you do your research, you will find that common law recognizes that everyone has the right to breathe clean air, and nobody has the right to stink it up.
I use the word stink because my primary objection to smoking is based on the smell.
Anyway, this is a good outline http://medicolegal.tripod.com/pureaircases.htm
StuckintheUK
New member
Pax,
I second deej's car comparison.
I don't drive a car what right do you have to drive down any road I may wish to walk down churning out clouds of smoke? I have the right to breath anywhere I want right?
StuckintheUK
I second deej's car comparison.
I don't drive a car what right do you have to drive down any road I may wish to walk down churning out clouds of smoke? I have the right to breath anywhere I want right?
StuckintheUK
trapshooter
Moderator
The two main arguments against smoking seem to be:
1. It'll kill you, or me, eventually.
2. It smells bad.
Regarding #1, so what? Death is inevitable, and why anyone would want two or four or six more years in a rocking chair as a finish I can't really fathom. As for it (long, slow, painful death from cancer) costing us all billions, bulls--t. That's due to medical care costing a fortune, which is negotiable in any case, and they kind of have you over a barrel, right? The money has more to do with the desperation of the dying than anything else.
As for #2, I'll concede some truth. Now, no more gas passing in public. I find that far more offensive, to tell the truth. No SBD's either. Nasty. Oh, and park those fire-breathing, fume-belching SUV's, you latte-drinking dilletantes. I don't like it. So there.
1. It'll kill you, or me, eventually.
2. It smells bad.
Regarding #1, so what? Death is inevitable, and why anyone would want two or four or six more years in a rocking chair as a finish I can't really fathom. As for it (long, slow, painful death from cancer) costing us all billions, bulls--t. That's due to medical care costing a fortune, which is negotiable in any case, and they kind of have you over a barrel, right? The money has more to do with the desperation of the dying than anything else.
As for #2, I'll concede some truth. Now, no more gas passing in public. I find that far more offensive, to tell the truth. No SBD's either. Nasty. Oh, and park those fire-breathing, fume-belching SUV's, you latte-drinking dilletantes. I don't like it. So there.
Stetson --
Okay, that's a good point. You are pursuing happiness when you smoke, and you do have the right to pursue happiness.
My questions, based on your argument: do you have a right to pursue happiness at the expense of someone else's right to pursue happiness? Sure, smoking on the public park bench makes you happy, but if I walk by and get a whiff of it, I'm not gonna be very happy.
Also, do you have a right to pursue happiness if it involves harm to others? For instance, if you were pursuing happiness by firing a gun into the air with neither knowledge of nor concern about where the bullets might land, would you have a right to do that? If someone is bothered by it, they could just move away from the area you and your bullets are occupying, or ask you nicely to stop. Right?
Bastiat --
My second question to Stetson is for you, too. Can you draw a distinction between your 'right' to indiscriminately spew smoke into the public air, with no concern for where that smoke might go, and someone else's 'right' to spew bullets into the air, with no concern for where those bullets might go?
Do I have some vague, all-encompassing 'right' to be free from deadly danger created by your actions? Yes, or no?
Thanks for handing me the comparison to sitting at the back of the bus.
Might use it, later.
Um, your posts are still assuming you have a right to smoke at all. Could you take a step back, and pass 'Go,' first?
Re, your second post. That's a good analogy, but flawed. No one is waving those plants around, to increase the chances that you will have to breathe them. Nor is anyone claiming a 'right' to blow the pollens into your face as you walk past.
Plus, here's a quote from the link Pendragon posted:
pax
Okay, that's a good point. You are pursuing happiness when you smoke, and you do have the right to pursue happiness.
My questions, based on your argument: do you have a right to pursue happiness at the expense of someone else's right to pursue happiness? Sure, smoking on the public park bench makes you happy, but if I walk by and get a whiff of it, I'm not gonna be very happy.
Also, do you have a right to pursue happiness if it involves harm to others? For instance, if you were pursuing happiness by firing a gun into the air with neither knowledge of nor concern about where the bullets might land, would you have a right to do that? If someone is bothered by it, they could just move away from the area you and your bullets are occupying, or ask you nicely to stop. Right?
Bastiat --
My second question to Stetson is for you, too. Can you draw a distinction between your 'right' to indiscriminately spew smoke into the public air, with no concern for where that smoke might go, and someone else's 'right' to spew bullets into the air, with no concern for where those bullets might go?
Do I have some vague, all-encompassing 'right' to be free from deadly danger created by your actions? Yes, or no?
Thanks for handing me the comparison to sitting at the back of the bus.
Might use it, later. Um, your posts are still assuming you have a right to smoke at all. Could you take a step back, and pass 'Go,' first?
Re, your second post. That's a good analogy, but flawed. No one is waving those plants around, to increase the chances that you will have to breathe them. Nor is anyone claiming a 'right' to blow the pollens into your face as you walk past.
Plus, here's a quote from the link Pendragon posted:
The point is, that for generations it has been both legal and moral for nuisance plants to be destroyed, and that a nuisance plant is defined as any plant which may cause harm to other people or to other people's property. In the county we used to live in, it was illegal to allow Tansy Weed to grow wild on your property, because the seeds would get into the neighbor's hay and possibly kill their cows when it was baled with the hay. Is the value of the life of a non-smoker at least equal to that of a cow?
pax
deej --
My challenge was to prove you have a right to smoke in public, and that that right trumps my right to breathe. If you don't want to play, don't play.
Pendragon --
Thanks for the link. Interesting history there. Maybe a bit overstated in spots.
StuckintheUK --
There are laws which require you to meet a certain minimum emissions standard on your automobile, and those laws were enacted because people have a right to breathe. In the case of cars, our society decided that they were a necessity and that their emissions were a necessary evil.
Are cigarettes a necessity? Is cigarette smoke a necessary evil, that everyone must endure because of some greater good that is being produced by them?
Trapshooter --
My main objection to smoking is that there's a chance that your smoking will put me in the hospital, or kill me. Not 'eventually,' but within a short time after I inhale your smoke.
Asthma kills some 5,000 people in America annually, puts some 500,000 people in the hospital, and causes some 2 million emergency-room visits. Tobacco smoke is a common trigger.
Do you have a right to smoke? Is that right so powerful that it justifies putting other people at risk of immediate, deadly harm?
pax
The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. -- Joseph Joubert
My challenge was to prove you have a right to smoke in public, and that that right trumps my right to breathe. If you don't want to play, don't play.
Pendragon --
Thanks for the link. Interesting history there. Maybe a bit overstated in spots.
StuckintheUK --
There are laws which require you to meet a certain minimum emissions standard on your automobile, and those laws were enacted because people have a right to breathe. In the case of cars, our society decided that they were a necessity and that their emissions were a necessary evil.
Are cigarettes a necessity? Is cigarette smoke a necessary evil, that everyone must endure because of some greater good that is being produced by them?
Trapshooter --
My main objection to smoking is that there's a chance that your smoking will put me in the hospital, or kill me. Not 'eventually,' but within a short time after I inhale your smoke.
Asthma kills some 5,000 people in America annually, puts some 500,000 people in the hospital, and causes some 2 million emergency-room visits. Tobacco smoke is a common trigger.
Do you have a right to smoke? Is that right so powerful that it justifies putting other people at risk of immediate, deadly harm?
pax
The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. -- Joseph Joubert